Basementdweller Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 One issue about summer BALOO training is where would it be held? BALOO should NOT be done indoors. It should be held in an outdoor camp setting. Ideally in a campground that the Cub Packs will be using. Just how easy do you think that would be in Summer - the busiest camping season? All of our local BSA Cub camps are booked solid for Summer weekends. The same goes for Boy Scout camps. County/state campgrounds are usually booked up too. I don't know about you, but I am not volunteering my backyard for BALOO training. Not that a city backyard would be a very good camp experience! As a BALOO Course Director, I can tell you that there are a LOT of things that go into putting together a training course. We don't just roll out of bed the morning of with every little thing done for us in advance by Training Gnomes! One of the BIGGEST problems is finding staff! BALOO is not a 1 man show. On time/place - we have to find a place that has a Saturday opening. We have to find a Course Director that has that Saturday available. We have to find 3-5 other volunteers that have that Saturday available to serve as staff for the course. So then you want us to what? Poll all the Cub leaders in the council to find a Saturday that is convenient for ALL of THEM! So, now you have a weekend that is convenient for YOU. However, there are no trainers available that day to run the thing. What happens then? There were a number of times that I had to tap family members to help staff because many of my regular trainers were busy elsewhere. My son, luckily enough, loved working BALOO. He would often get roped into doing segments. Paid council staff do not have the time to run BSA training. They do not just sit around their desks all day sipping coffee (even though it sometimes seems that way!). They are busy. They often work 10-12 hours a day, and often 6-7 days per week. Many have families of their own that they would like to spend an hour or two with. Many have volunteer service of their own in other organizations. Even with all of that, many DE's will show up at at a training session, even if only for a little while, to check in with the Course Director, and answer any questions. BSA councils do not have the money to hire professional trainers. Or professional anything else either. Some councils are lucky to have enough money to keep the lights on. BALOO, like most other BSA training is done using a NATIONAL course syllabus. This means that, other than local rules/regs, the course you take in Spokane, WA, is the same as the course you take in Orlando, FL. If you can not find a date in your district that works for you, check out other districts, and other councils. Pay attention to WHERE the training is being held. The next council over might be holding their BALOO at a camp 15 minutes away from you. Bottom line, like BD stated, put your time/energy where your mouth is. At the end of the BALOO course, when they pass out the feedback sheets, put a very big X on the box that asks if you would be willing to help staff future courses. Then follow thru. I say a local park with a shelter house would be fine.....If there is a demand for the course find a way to put it on. I have seen wide inconsistency's in training programs...Including the IOLS course I staffed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 KDD my IOLS staff was excellent as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted August 30, 2013 Author Share Posted August 30, 2013 KDD my IOLS staff was excellent as well. Your description above was not very sunny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 One issue about summer BALOO training is where would it be held? BALOO should NOT be done indoors. It should be held in an outdoor camp setting. Ideally in a campground that the Cub Packs will be using. Just how easy do you think that would be in Summer - the busiest camping season? All of our local BSA Cub camps are booked solid for Summer weekends. The same goes for Boy Scout camps. County/state campgrounds are usually booked up too. I don't know about you, but I am not volunteering my backyard for BALOO training. Not that a city backyard would be a very good camp experience! As a BALOO Course Director, I can tell you that there are a LOT of things that go into putting together a training course. We don't just roll out of bed the morning of with every little thing done for us in advance by Training Gnomes! One of the BIGGEST problems is finding staff! BALOO is not a 1 man show. On time/place - we have to find a place that has a Saturday opening. We have to find a Course Director that has that Saturday available. We have to find 3-5 other volunteers that have that Saturday available to serve as staff for the course. So then you want us to what? Poll all the Cub leaders in the council to find a Saturday that is convenient for ALL of THEM! So, now you have a weekend that is convenient for YOU. However, there are no trainers available that day to run the thing. What happens then? There were a number of times that I had to tap family members to help staff because many of my regular trainers were busy elsewhere. My son, luckily enough, loved working BALOO. He would often get roped into doing segments. Paid council staff do not have the time to run BSA training. They do not just sit around their desks all day sipping coffee (even though it sometimes seems that way!). They are busy. They often work 10-12 hours a day, and often 6-7 days per week. Many have families of their own that they would like to spend an hour or two with. Many have volunteer service of their own in other organizations. Even with all of that, many DE's will show up at at a training session, even if only for a little while, to check in with the Course Director, and answer any questions. BSA councils do not have the money to hire professional trainers. Or professional anything else either. Some councils are lucky to have enough money to keep the lights on. BALOO, like most other BSA training is done using a NATIONAL course syllabus. This means that, other than local rules/regs, the course you take in Spokane, WA, is the same as the course you take in Orlando, FL. If you can not find a date in your district that works for you, check out other districts, and other councils. Pay attention to WHERE the training is being held. The next council over might be holding their BALOO at a camp 15 minutes away from you. Bottom line, like BD stated, put your time/energy where your mouth is. At the end of the BALOO course, when they pass out the feedback sheets, put a very big X on the box that asks if you would be willing to help staff future courses. Then follow thru. We have gone with local parks in the past. Just saying that Summer is not the optimum time to find one available. My council usually does two BALOO trainings. One in Fall, and one in late Spring. I doubt that we would have a decent location, the staff, or even enough participants, to field a Summer BALOO course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 KDD my IOLS staff was excellent as well. It is a very long course......Especially for the staff....We are required to camp Friday thru Sunday on three consecutive weekends and a single saturday..... Participants are only there three saturdays and a complete weekend..... But still 4 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basementdweller Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 One issue about summer BALOO training is where would it be held? BALOO should NOT be done indoors. It should be held in an outdoor camp setting. Ideally in a campground that the Cub Packs will be using. Just how easy do you think that would be in Summer - the busiest camping season? All of our local BSA Cub camps are booked solid for Summer weekends. The same goes for Boy Scout camps. County/state campgrounds are usually booked up too. I don't know about you, but I am not volunteering my backyard for BALOO training. Not that a city backyard would be a very good camp experience! As a BALOO Course Director, I can tell you that there are a LOT of things that go into putting together a training course. We don't just roll out of bed the morning of with every little thing done for us in advance by Training Gnomes! One of the BIGGEST problems is finding staff! BALOO is not a 1 man show. On time/place - we have to find a place that has a Saturday opening. We have to find a Course Director that has that Saturday available. We have to find 3-5 other volunteers that have that Saturday available to serve as staff for the course. So then you want us to what? Poll all the Cub leaders in the council to find a Saturday that is convenient for ALL of THEM! So, now you have a weekend that is convenient for YOU. However, there are no trainers available that day to run the thing. What happens then? There were a number of times that I had to tap family members to help staff because many of my regular trainers were busy elsewhere. My son, luckily enough, loved working BALOO. He would often get roped into doing segments. Paid council staff do not have the time to run BSA training. They do not just sit around their desks all day sipping coffee (even though it sometimes seems that way!). They are busy. They often work 10-12 hours a day, and often 6-7 days per week. Many have families of their own that they would like to spend an hour or two with. Many have volunteer service of their own in other organizations. Even with all of that, many DE's will show up at at a training session, even if only for a little while, to check in with the Course Director, and answer any questions. BSA councils do not have the money to hire professional trainers. Or professional anything else either. Some councils are lucky to have enough money to keep the lights on. BALOO, like most other BSA training is done using a NATIONAL course syllabus. This means that, other than local rules/regs, the course you take in Spokane, WA, is the same as the course you take in Orlando, FL. If you can not find a date in your district that works for you, check out other districts, and other councils. Pay attention to WHERE the training is being held. The next council over might be holding their BALOO at a camp 15 minutes away from you. Bottom line, like BD stated, put your time/energy where your mouth is. At the end of the BALOO course, when they pass out the feedback sheets, put a very big X on the box that asks if you would be willing to help staff future courses. Then follow thru. Agreed....Especially with all of the family reunions and birthday partys going on..... But if there is interest?????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueymungus Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I would check with your Council about BALOO not being required if you stay within your Council. All Trip Permits go to National now. Here's the thing..accident or issue happens and lawyers get involved and ask for Trip Permit records. They find that BALOO wasn't on there, but you went anyway. BSA is off the hook, but you and your CO are.... Don't be on the 5 o'clock news for the wrong reasons. If you go "family camping" nothing counts for Rank Advancement and no Pack equipment used. BALOO is for Pack Camping. OWLS is how to put on the Webelos Program and to Camp with them. ITOLS/IOLS is how to put on the Boy Scout Program and to camp. OWLS/ITOLS is similar in function, but it's two different programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari_cardi Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 In addition to your criteria for 'family camping', Hueymungus, I'd add that no unit money was used for the trip and that it was not advertised through the unit. Basically, if someone might think it was an official unit outing, then it's more than family camping. When my family goes camping with friends from scouts just because we like them, I consider that family camping. Anything else and we follow G2SS and all the other rules. As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year. Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ? A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include: Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine) Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.) [*]At the council's request Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 I would check with your Council about BALOO not being required if you stay within your Council. All Trip Permits go to National now. Here's the thing..accident or issue happens and lawyers get involved and ask for Trip Permit records. They find that BALOO wasn't on there, but you went anyway. BSA is off the hook, but you and your CO are.... Don't be on the 5 o'clock news for the wrong reasons. If you go "family camping" nothing counts for Rank Advancement and no Pack equipment used. BALOO is for Pack Camping. OWLS is how to put on the Webelos Program and to Camp with them. ITOLS/IOLS is how to put on the Boy Scout Program and to camp. OWLS/ITOLS is similar in function, but it's two different programs. You seem to know a lot about this. What is your take on this statement by BD, "OWL is not required to take a webelo den camping....." Earlier in this discussion ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ding Dong Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 KDD my IOLS staff was excellent as well. Hold on. Let me get my violin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueymungus Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I would check with your Council about BALOO not being required if you stay within your Council. All Trip Permits go to National now. Here's the thing..accident or issue happens and lawyers get involved and ask for Trip Permit records. They find that BALOO wasn't on there, but you went anyway. BSA is off the hook, but you and your CO are.... Don't be on the 5 o'clock news for the wrong reasons. If you go "family camping" nothing counts for Rank Advancement and no Pack equipment used. BALOO is for Pack Camping. OWLS is how to put on the Webelos Program and to Camp with them. ITOLS/IOLS is how to put on the Boy Scout Program and to camp. OWLS/ITOLS is similar in function, but it's two different programs. Correct. It's not required. However, I think that not knowing about the Webelos program and how to better present it is to the detriment of the WDL and Scouts. Webelos is not all Beltloops and Go-See-Its. It's the bridge between Cubscouts and Boy Scouts. Preparing them for Boy Scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueymungus Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 In addition to your criteria for 'family camping', Hueymungus, I'd add that no unit money was used for the trip and that it was not advertised through the unit. Basically, if someone might think it was an official unit outing, then it's more than family camping. When my family goes camping with friends from scouts just because we like them, I consider that family camping. Anything else and we follow G2SS and all the other rules. As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year. Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ? A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include: Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine) Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.) [*]At the council's request Apparently your Council has special exemption permission from National as to the Trip Permit. Hang onto that when a claim is made. Your lawyer will need it. Camping with friends who are Scouts is just that. Camping with Friends. But, if the Pack goes "Family Camping" because that's what they call it, then, that's breaking the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mashmaster Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it is a duck.... I'd get leaders Baloo trained, it is easy and file trip plans for each trip. It helps protect you for the just in case moment. I hope you never have a moment like that but you never know when that will happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCinNC Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 In addition to your criteria for 'family camping', Hueymungus, I'd add that no unit money was used for the trip and that it was not advertised through the unit. Basically, if someone might think it was an official unit outing, then it's more than family camping. When my family goes camping with friends from scouts just because we like them, I consider that family camping. Anything else and we follow G2SS and all the other rules. As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year. Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ? A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include: Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine) Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.) [*]At the council's request Pack Camping is "Family Camping", no rule broken. "Family camping is an outdoor experience, other than resident camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection policies apply." http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueymungus Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 In addition to your criteria for 'family camping', Hueymungus, I'd add that no unit money was used for the trip and that it was not advertised through the unit. Basically, if someone might think it was an official unit outing, then it's more than family camping. When my family goes camping with friends from scouts just because we like them, I consider that family camping. Anything else and we follow G2SS and all the other rules. As to the tour plan issue, here is a cut and paste from my council's website. With this thread in mind, I asked my DE about it a couple of days ago and the policy hasn't changed since it was posted last year. Q. When do I need to complete a tour plan ? A. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include: Trips outside of council boundaries (bolding mine) Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events: Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) Climbing and rappelling Orientation flights (process flying plan) Shooting sports Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.) [*]At the council's request ADCinNC.....so, "Pack Camping is "Family Camping", no rule broken." Great, I am bringing Beer to this outing. Rule broken. If you tell me that it's a Family Camping event then, I can drink beer in site of everyone. If you then come up to me and say, hey you can't do that because it's a Pack Campout....you have misrepresented the outing. You need to look at the other part of what you quoted..." that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in overnight settings" Rule Broken. I get the part where people/families can camp and go on outings that also include people who are involved with Scouting and that those outings are not under any BSA Rules. Meaning that you can drink beer and smoke in front of youth. Also, while no one is really looking you can forget the Scout Oath and Law...but what the BSA is teaching is that even while people are not looking or your not in a BSA setting, that the Scout Oath and Law still work and should be our guide. Once a Scout always a Scout. So, while this Council has the BALOO/Trip Permit wording on the website and people have checked with the DE to say it's OK....I still go by "Be Prepared" Get the paperwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now