SPL issues

[Stosh]

It is more my growing frustration with the lad.......The return on my time spent with him, is next to zero...I just don't see any growth or interest in the position.

 

His failure to consistently provide leadership in the troop.....Unless I call him to make sure he has a program scheduled he won't do it.

One cannot force someone to lead or even manage a task. It appears he's only interested in wearing a patch and getting credit for doing nothing. There's only so much one can do with mentoring. Once one goes over to making demands, one's credibility as leadership mentoring goes out the window. I would suggest getting someone in there that is genuinely interested in developing their leadership skills and make better use of your time. There's been enough time wasted on this process, don't make it worse by kicking a dead horse.

 

Of course one can run the risk I did and be asked to leave the troop because I expected too much leadership out of the boys. This is exactly what was happening in my former troop. Next step? The boy whines to his parents who go directly to the troop committee with their "concerns" about your leadership.

[MattR]

So, you have a scout that you're getting frustrated with at trying to get him to do his best? Welcome to being a SM

 

Jblake could be right, no point in kicking a dead horse. However, it could also be other things. How old is this boy? Personally, I think it is a rare scout that can lead at the age of 12. 13? Maybe, 14. Also, has this boy seen it done right? Simple example is how to clean dishes. We told the scouts hot soapy water, scrape the food out, scrub, etc, but it still took 6 months before they got those ideas. Now it's no longer an issue. Scouts see how it's done and when it's their turn to lead they know what we mean my cleaning. Words don't have nearly the impact as seeing it done.

 

It gets down to figuring out whether the boy is trying and wants to do it right, but for whatever reason is failing, vs a boy that just can't be bothered. Many boys, if they don't know how to do something, will end up looking like they don't care when they care a lot. So I certainly can't give you any advice on how to deal with this boy.

[sailingpj]

So, you have a scout that you're getting frustrated with at trying to get him to do his best? Welcome to being a SM

 

Jblake could be right, no point in kicking a dead horse. However, it could also be other things. How old is this boy? Personally, I think it is a rare scout that can lead at the age of 12. 13? Maybe, 14. Also, has this boy seen it done right? Simple example is how to clean dishes. We told the scouts hot soapy water, scrape the food out, scrub, etc, but it still took 6 months before they got those ideas. Now it's no longer an issue. Scouts see how it's done and when it's their turn to lead they know what we mean my cleaning. Words don't have nearly the impact as seeing it done.

 

It gets down to figuring out whether the boy is trying and wants to do it right, but for whatever reason is failing, vs a boy that just can't be bothered. Many boys, if they don't know how to do something, will end up looking like they don't care when they care a lot. So I certainly can't give you any advice on how to deal with this boy.

Hear it, See it, Do it, Teach it.

[Basementdweller]

I guess that is the issue....

 

Is he completely lost and comes a crossed uninterested.....Or doesn't he care?????? that is the million dollar question.

 

Well tonight I sat down with the spl duties out of the book and asked him if he honestly did the duties one at a time......HIs answer was no to most.......I suggested we wait on the smc and bor till those answers were yes's.

[Kudu]

 

The dead horse here is "Leadership Development," which began to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method in 1965 with the imposition of position of responsibility requirements.

Leadership Development kills twice: First by forcing into PORs, boys who have no interest in being a "leader," and second by encouraging your natural leaders to make room for others once their six months are up.

The solution is obvious.

1. Purchase 26 Troop Librarian patches.

2. Ask your SPL to appoint one Troop Librarian for every letter of the alphabet. Especially valuable are letters for which you have no book titles. They teach the very highest form of leadership: Innovation (the ability to package nothing as something).

3. Announce that everyone in the Troop now has a "POR" for advancement.

4. As it becomes obvious that certain jobs need to be done, your natural leaders will step up.

Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity."

 

Teaching boys to extract compensation for stepping up is like paying them to love Jesus.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

 

[koolaidman]

I think you did the right thing there Basement. What was his reaction to your suggestion? Did you offer to help come up with a plan to improve?

[Basementdweller]

The dead horse here is "Leadership Development," which began to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method in 1965 with the imposition of position of responsibility requirements.

Leadership Development kills twice: First by forcing into PORs, boys who have no interest in being a "leader," and second by encouraging your natural leaders to make room for others once their six months are up.

The solution is obvious.

1. Purchase 26 Troop Librarian patches.

2. Ask your SPL to appoint one Troop Librarian for every letter of the alphabet. Especially valuable are letters for which you have no book titles. They teach the very highest form of leadership: Innovation (the ability to package nothing as something).

3. Announce that everyone in the Troop now has a "POR" for advancement.

4. As it becomes obvious that certain jobs need to be done, your natural leaders will step up.

Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity."

 

Teaching boys to extract compensation for stepping up is like paying them to love Jesus.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

Glad you feel better posting it......But not very helpful

[Basementdweller]

I think you did the right thing there Basement. What was his reaction to your suggestion? Did you offer to help come up with a plan to improve?

Accepting.....I believe he understands that he has not done the job.

 

Only time will tell

[Eagledad]

Some people are just by nature lazy. I'm not meaning that in a negative way. I believe the majority of us lack true leadership ambition. That doesn't mean the scouts aren't learning the leadership skills you are teaching. It's the Scoutmasters responsibility to help a scout grow. Where you find that growth is hard to define sometimes, but admitting our failings to me is growth. I don't know how old your SPL is, but if he is 14 or younger, he may still turn into a great leader. I seen puberty do it many times. If he is older, it is rare that he will change much. But, one scout that I had this same conversation is now a very successful business owner in my town. So I fully believe they are getting what we are offereing, even if they don't see it just yet.

[Kudu]

The dead horse here is "Leadership Development," which began to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method in 1965 with the imposition of position of responsibility requirements.

Leadership Development kills twice: First by forcing into PORs, boys who have no interest in being a "leader," and second by encouraging your natural leaders to make room for others once their six months are up.

The solution is obvious.

1. Purchase 26 Troop Librarian patches.

2. Ask your SPL to appoint one Troop Librarian for every letter of the alphabet. Especially valuable are letters for which you have no book titles. They teach the very highest form of leadership: Innovation (the ability to package nothing as something).

3. Announce that everyone in the Troop now has a "POR" for advancement.

4. As it becomes obvious that certain jobs need to be done, your natural leaders will step up.

Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity."

 

Teaching boys to extract compensation for stepping up is like paying them to love Jesus.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

How often do your Patrols hike without adult helicopters?

 

How far apart are they when you camp as a Troop?

[Basementdweller]

The dead horse here is "Leadership Development," which began to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method in 1965 with the imposition of position of responsibility requirements.

Leadership Development kills twice: First by forcing into PORs, boys who have no interest in being a "leader," and second by encouraging your natural leaders to make room for others once their six months are up.

The solution is obvious.

1. Purchase 26 Troop Librarian patches.

2. Ask your SPL to appoint one Troop Librarian for every letter of the alphabet. Especially valuable are letters for which you have no book titles. They teach the very highest form of leadership: Innovation (the ability to package nothing as something).

3. Announce that everyone in the Troop now has a "POR" for advancement.

4. As it becomes obvious that certain jobs need to be done, your natural leaders will step up.

Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity."

 

Teaching boys to extract compensation for stepping up is like paying them to love Jesus.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

Again....

 

Not very helpful

 

I am glad it helps your sense of superiority

[Kudu]

The dead horse here is "Leadership Development," which began to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method in 1965 with the imposition of position of responsibility requirements.

Leadership Development kills twice: First by forcing into PORs, boys who have no interest in being a "leader," and second by encouraging your natural leaders to make room for others once their six months are up.

The solution is obvious.

1. Purchase 26 Troop Librarian patches.

2. Ask your SPL to appoint one Troop Librarian for every letter of the alphabet. Especially valuable are letters for which you have no book titles. They teach the very highest form of leadership: Innovation (the ability to package nothing as something).

3. Announce that everyone in the Troop now has a "POR" for advancement.

4. As it becomes obvious that certain jobs need to be done, your natural leaders will step up.

Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity."

 

Teaching boys to extract compensation for stepping up is like paying them to love Jesus.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

Do you treat your SPL this way?

[King Ding Dong]

It is more my growing frustration with the lad.......The return on my time spent with him, is next to zero...I just don't see any growth or interest in the position.

 

His failure to consistently provide leadership in the troop.....Unless I call him to make sure he has a program scheduled he won't do it.

This discussion brings me to the subject of parental involvement in the scouting program. Is it appropriate to have a SM conference with the parents so they are aware of his status ? Maybe the answer is the parens don't care or shouldn't care.

 

I would certainly want to know about this scouts issues so I could help support him at home. Parents sometimes can place other demands on their children that can interfere with their ability to accomplish other tasks. Swim team practice 4 days a week, plus lessons, plus cubs, homework, reading time, math facts, chores, 11 hours sleep, etc certainly put a lot of pressure on my son a couple of years ago and he suffered because he never felt he had any control over his life. I recently have done a poor job keeping his little brother out of his hair so he practice his violin in peace.

 

If I didn't know he was having difficulties with his position and was blindsided with his removal from a POR I would be a bit upset. Same as I would be upset to find out my child was falling short in a subject at school when the report card comes home.

[Stosh]

The dead horse here is "Leadership Development," which began to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method in 1965 with the imposition of position of responsibility requirements.

Leadership Development kills twice: First by forcing into PORs, boys who have no interest in being a "leader," and second by encouraging your natural leaders to make room for others once their six months are up.

The solution is obvious.

1. Purchase 26 Troop Librarian patches.

2. Ask your SPL to appoint one Troop Librarian for every letter of the alphabet. Especially valuable are letters for which you have no book titles. They teach the very highest form of leadership: Innovation (the ability to package nothing as something).

3. Announce that everyone in the Troop now has a "POR" for advancement.

4. As it becomes obvious that certain jobs need to be done, your natural leaders will step up.

Baden-Powell called that "Practical Christianity."

 

Teaching boys to extract compensation for stepping up is like paying them to love Jesus.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

There is a very thin line between what people call a sense of superiority and wisdom.

 

For the most part what Kudu says makes a lot of sense, something which isn't very common in today's world.

 

If one can say that their FC+ scouts are sufficiently trained to survive an outing of 2-3 days in a foreign/alien environment, i.e. woods, then what they are doing is correct. However, not many can attest to that. What I hear more often than not Eagle scouts couldn't take care of themselves in the out-of-doors let alone have sufficient leadership skills to take care of others. Distance, 300', is mere pittance compared to a real situation of being away from the security of assistance. Can your boys do HA backpacking into the backwoods? Can they navigate a 100 mile trek in the BWCA? Sure, with the help of experienced guides and adults. Of course these boys only follow, they don't lead, the adults do. Separate them from the adults and all bets are off. How much effort is really being put into "being prepared"? I could also go out on a limb here and say that there aren't many SM's that are skilled enough on these basic tenets to even teach the boys along these lines. Today's BSA spends a lot of time promoting Wilderness Survival and Wilderness first aid for the adults so they can take the boys into challenging areas, but where's the training for the boys to be able to take their buddies there?

 

While it is important to be able to do well in the out-of-doors, these skills apply to everyday life in terms of marriage, family, jobs, etc. Dialing 9-1-1 when one's spouse, child or co-worker is injured, might be the correct answer on the test, but then standing there uselessly watching the person bleed out without knowing what to do is going to be an unfortunate life lesson no one ever wants to learn the hard way. The underlying principle to any and all true leadership is "Be Prepared". I'm thinking that's why BP picked it.

 

At one time it was common knowledge that the "great outdoors" provided all the necessities of life, food, clothing, shelter, etc. Our culture today has forgotten most of those skills and would find themselves struggling to survive days or maybe a week or two in the wilderness. Turn off the electricity to the country for 3 months and see how many people survive. There are people in this world who do it all the time, but they are closer to nature than our society. They will be the leaders (those to whom we look for survival), not us.

 

Maybe we ought to teach our Eagle scouts to actually light the fires they build. I know it's an arrogant stance to insist on that, but there still is a lot of wisdom behind the idea.

[MattR]

I think you did the right thing there Basement. What was his reaction to your suggestion? Did you offer to help come up with a plan to improve?

Actually, I think you've made great progress. Now you have his attention and he's likely to listen to you, so speak carefully. A little bit of success could go a long way now.