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shortridge

Where does BSA tell us homosexuals are not allowed?

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Should have rephrased that.

 

It can be construed as sexual harassment based on how the question is asked.

 

If you're blunt and straightforward, it's usually not a problem if the question is relevant and applied equally.

 

However, if you make it known there's rumors and you beat around the bush (these leaders have a history of in-fighting and lack of tact) it becomes a hostile environment. The person may even feel slighted, abused, and a creative lawyer could probably find something to seek damages for.

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Not sexual harassment. But it would be a violation of the various statements by the BSA that people should not be asked their orientation and that the exclusion applies only to "avowed homosexuals." Of course, this is part of the whole issue that shortridge raises. There is no handbook, manual, training module or anything of that sort that mentions the subject at all. There are statements on bsalegal.org, there have been press releases and newspaper articles quoting "BSA spokesmen", there have been statements in legal briefs, and to my knowledge there has been one resolution adopted by the "national officers," which may be found here: http://www.scoutingforall.org/data/layer02/aaic/BoyscoutsBSA.pdf. (And yes, Scouting for All is an organization that opposes the exclusion policy, but this resolution seems to be the same one that I saw years ago on the BSA's own web site. That's another thing about this subject, trying to find the various statements on the Internet is like trying to find an individual raindrop two weeks after a hurricane. Press releases and newspapers articles tend to disappear after awhile, and material at both scouting.org and bsalegal.org does the same. Years ago I saw a statement somewhere about the "policy" regarding youth members who say they are gay, and it did NOT say that the exclusion applies only to adults -- it said something about "counseling" the youth, essentially to determine whether they really are gay, with at least the implication of a possible removal if they insist that they are. But go find that on the Internet now -- I have tried several times, and have not been able to find it.)

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"The person may even feel slighted, abused, and a creative lawyer could probably find something to seek damages for. "

 

While the question is totally inappropriate in my mind it's very doubtful it could be used as the basis of any legal action. The protections of a public school or employment don't apply to a private organization where the decision to be a member is entirely voluntary. The BSA or even a Chartered Organization can limit membership based on just about any criteria they wish. They voluntarily decided to open leadership membership to women, and don't descriminate based on race or religious affiiation,(except for atheists) but these are voluntary decisions. They could chose to limit membership based on height, weight, eye color, hair color, or I just don't like you. It's a private club open to those the BSA decides it's open to. Anyone's membership can be revoked at anytime for any reason no questions asked, no recourse. That's the point of being a private club.

 

SA

 

 

 

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While I have no doubt that BSA and the local unit involved would come out on top if it were to go to court...I can easily see where and how a parnet might want to sue BSA after filling out an adult application.

 

I am not gay, not bisexual and I do not have 15 wives( are you kidding me? One is ENOUGH!!!)

 

But this subject was not brought up at my very first contact with BSA - which was at a school sign up night. Not a single mention of who is considered an asset ot who is considered an unwanted.

 

After going to the pack orientation meeting...nothing at all said about who is considered the ideal moral candidate for scouts or parents or leaders.

 

Soon, due to my invovlement with helping out, I was asked to be on the committee and handed an adult aplication. SUre, I checked off that box that says I would follow the Declaration of religious priciples....which were explained to me that I must be a good moral person, not be a pedophile, abuser. felon, etc...

 

I got the point.

 

BUT.... still no mention from anybody about hwat BSA's specific policies or standards were as to what moral, educational , and emotional qualities were.

 

And lets be honest..at this point of entering into the family known as BSA..pretty much everybody goes by what they are told. At this point in anybody's BSA carrer, you have no forward or previous knowledge of what is and what isn't allowed, policy, or such.

 

You are not aware of G2SS, YPT ( when I joined, it wasn't required to be taken before the application was filled ), and any required or extra non required training. You do not know where to go for resources or online info.

 

Why? BECAUSE you are BRAND NEW to the program.

 

So, while I am not taking sides on what the policy is...I completely and totally see where people are surprised by BSA when they later are ejected or find out about somebody else getting ejected by BSA for being homosexual.

 

 

 

Now

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>>So, while I am not taking sides on what the policy is...I completely and totally see where people are surprised by BSA when they later are ejected or find out about somebody else getting ejected by BSA for being homosexual.

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Before I was a forum member but while I was a CM, almost no person, parent or leader, in the pack knew about this until a DE decided to give us fire and brimstone instead of Blue and Gold. Everyone in the room was stunned into silence...and then they began to leave. I had no idea how homophobic the organization was until that moment. Of course, if you subscribe to this forum, you get beat over the head with it fairly frequently.

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" Come-on, who doesn't know? "

 

People who have yet to have their sons recruited or who have yet any experience wit BSA.

 

Don't fall into the trapo of thinking everybody is aware of and as knowledgeable as you...when you are a part of something they are not.

 

Know what I mean? I'll give you an example. Way back when I was taking the classes for Emergency Medical Technition..our instructor was discussing veins and arteries and people who were crying out for help. She then tells us that if a suicide patient cut thier wrist crossways to their arm - than that patient really did not want to die, but wanted help.

 

BUT...if that patient cut their arm parallel to their arm( going from wrist towards the elbow) that they were seruious and really meant to kill themselves.

 

Why? Because EVERYBODY knew that cutting crossways will result in your elastic veins pulling back in, closing up and clotting after some minor blood loss.

 

WEll I(MAGINE THAT! Everybody already knew that! :o

 

Except most people don't know. They know what they see on tv and what they hear and what they "think" they know.

 

And another example: Me! Before my son came home and told me about signup night at school..I had no idea what BSA represented other than the little bit you see on tv or what is "common public" knowledge..which isn't worth much and highly innaccurate most of the time.

 

People think Boy SCouts and think of scouts helping old ladies across the street and waving flags in parades.

 

Would you believe that I had no idea whatsoever that scouts sold popcorn until my son joind scouts? Never heard of it, never saw it, never had anybody approach me or try to sell to me. Never saw it at a storefront either. NOTHING!!!

 

Did any of you know that when it comes to fire depts, the lowest priority is trying to save trhe house/building on fire?

 

1) Protect yourself and stay out of harm's way above all!

2) Prevent any further harm or death to the public.

3) Prevent the spread of danger or destruction to other property.

4) Confine damage and destruction to property involved.

 

And after all that, if you can, you can try to save the propert on fire.

 

But "public knowledge" knows that firemen are supposed to save your house.

 

Point being, just because you knowq and I know what goes i=on in BSA - doesn't mean those outside BSA do.

 

Whjy should they? They are not taking training, they are not reading the boks, they are not doing anything except maybe dropping their kids off - unless they don't have kids in BSA..in which case, they know as much about BSA as I do about Girl Scouts which honestly is this:

 

They are girls, and they have awesome ccokies! :)

 

Other than that, I have no clue what their mission statement is, who is in charge, who they allow ( girls right?) and what the requirements are.

 

As I have no daughter...I don't really care either,. I have no vested interest or compelling reason to find out as it won't affect me.

 

That make sense?

 

 

 

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Great point packsaddle!

 

I have learned more stuff on this site than any leader book or training.

 

Cool cooking tips and ideas. Great ideas for PWD and B&G.

 

Projects and crafts too. Then there are policies. MOst of what I have heard here I can then go and find out after having a specific idea of what to look for.

 

But then you have that "common knowledge " thing too. I have seen stuff written in here that was purported to be fact when it actually goes against the very sourse they were quoteing or claiming to be speaking of.

 

Look at all the people who are intimantly involved in BSA as leaders, volunteers and committee. Not even counting the professional side. Look at all the dissagrements over what a word or what a rule means.

 

Look at all the controversy over what "active" means.

 

But thanks to this forum..I know what is going on. I know what BSA thinks and wants- except when the wrong people who don't know give answers, and give wrong answers when they do.

 

Except they don't say when they are wrong or give wrong answers.

 

Simple right? :)

 

 

Look at all the controversy over wether a scout is required to wear a unifrom to a EBOR and if he does, what about the scout handbook? Is it part of the uniform or not?

 

Are we adding requiremenst or not. Just because they are good ideas does not mean we can add them.

 

And that's just the easy stuff. That stuff isn't as touchy or complicated as religion and what defines a good versus bad moral.

 

 

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>>" Come-on, who doesn't know? "

 

People who have yet to have their sons recruited or who have yet any experience wit BSA.

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Oh the great it is a lifestyle choice or a genetic predisposition argument and it could go on for years.

 

I don't really care one way or another.

 

I am amazed at the prejudice and hate from a group of scouters.

 

 

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Base didn't call you a name.. Unless it was Scouter :)

 

He was a little overly critical of your arguement that your God tells you to pass judgement on a group of people, and consider them unworthy, sinful and immoral..

 

Base - Religious people do not hate, that would not be the Christen thing to do.. They simply pass judgement.. They need some measuring tool to figure out who is a sinner, so that they can compare and know that they are not. Remember, it is not them who is condemning.. It is their God, and they must follow his lead.

 

I am so happy my God is kinder.. My God tells me to respectfully disagree with their God.

 

 

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I know this is old, but here is one source:

 

I also remember reading something on bsa.legal.org but it bsa.legal has been updated recently.

 

BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA

National Office

1325 Walnut Hill Lane

P.O. Box 152079, Irving, Texas 75015-2079

214-580-2000

 

 

 

June 24, 1991

 

SUBJECT: ATHEISM, GIRLS AND HOMOSEXUALITY

 

From: J. Carey Keane, National Director of Relationships/Marketing

 

To: Regional Directors

Area Directors

Scout Executives

Division Directors

 

As you know, the BSA currently is involved in various legal issues; issues that include atheism, girls in Scouting and homosexuality. The media has been covering these rather extensively, with the usual debate of pros and cons.

 

Since many of you have been, and may continue to be, approached by local media, we thought it would be beneficial to provide a comprehensive package of information. The attached includes:

 

- Overall suggestions on responding to the media and to the public, as well as a pamphlet on "Unacceptables" that can be used to "bridge" discussions to the positive things the BSA is doing to resolve issues.

 

- Position statements and questions and answers on:

 

- Duty to God

- Girls in Scouting

- Homosexuality

 

If you need further information, please contact Blake Lewis at Edeknan Worldwide at (214) 520-3555 or Jeff Sacks, Division Director, External Communications at (214) 580-2271.

 

POSITION STATEMENT

 

HOMOSEXUALITY AND THE BSA

 

For more than 80 years, the Boy Scouts of America has brought the moral values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law to American boys, helping them to achieve the objectives of Scouting.

 

The Boy Scouts of America also places strong emphasis on traditional family values as being necessary components of a strong, healthy society. The Scouting program is designed to be a shared, family experience.

 

We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirements in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts.

 

Because of these beliefs, the Boy Scouts of America does not accept homosexuals as members or as leaders, whether in volunteer or professional capacities.

 

Our position on this issue is based solely upon our desire to provide the appropriate environment and role models which reflect Scouting's values and beliefs.

 

As a private membership organization, we believe our right to determine the qualifications of our members and leaders is protected by the Constitution of the United States.

 

Jssd

6/6/91

 

(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

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