UK: Scouts get prepared for more gay recruits

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Hello NJ CubScouter,

 

 

I've read a number of accounts of Scouting experiences by homosexual adults. If their accounts are to be credited, they acted out in a variety of ways when they thought they had the chance to do so.

 

After all, that's where sexual urges tend to lead, no matter how society may try to repress them.

 

Once such behavior is legitimized, and then protected, I would expect it to increase sharply.

 

 

[Cambridgeskip 658]

A UK scout leader writes....

 

You know it's slightly odd the amount of attention this is getting both in the UK and here given that gay and bisexuals have been welcome in the scouts in the UK for many years now (in fact I'm not old enough to remember when they were not). Whether they have been made to feel welcome is a different story, certainly I think they have been at the various groups I have been involved in over the years.

 

I'm sure that some people will find anecdotal evidence of individuals behaving in a manner that was not welcome, whether that was intentionally agressive or was simply from a misunderstanding. The same thing can be said of hetrosexuals. You have enough people involved in one organisation for long enough and individual events will happen. It's a fact of human existence.

 

Think of it another way. At a two week jamboree with 30,000 people there then statsically somebody will die. It doesn't mean that jamborees are inherently a bad thing.

[Old_OX_Eagle83 212]

At eleven years old what does a boy know about sexual orientation? All young men can benefit from scouting; none should be excluded. Our English brothers appear to get this. We should follow suit. We are still in the business of building character, instilling values, teaching citizenship, and developing leaders, arent we? If the young men who come to us are not in need of what we offer this all becomes one big slumber party with cool patches

[NJCubScouter 1389]

SeattlePioneer, what kind of "behavior" are you talking about as being "legitimized"? In the first paragraph of your post you seem to be talking about child abuse, although you don't say so. Is that the "behavior" you are talking about? That is never going to be "legitimized."

 

As Cambridgeskip points out, some people will do things they should not, regardless of sexual orientation. There have been a number of stories in this forum over the years about heterosexual Scout leaders who acted inappropriately. If a male and female Scouter somewhere decide to cheat on their respective spouses and have an affair with each other, does that mean that heterosexuals who behave properly (which includes me, and I assume it also includes you) should be banned from Scouting? There wouldn't be anybody left.

[moosetracker 132]

Old_OX - If scouting stopped at 11 years old I would agree with you.. But with boy scouts it is 18 and with Ventureing it 21.. Now lets ask your question again..

 

At 17 years old what does a boy know about sexual orientation? Answer Alot, most kids now adays have lost their virginity by that age..

At 20 years old what does a boy know about sexual orientation? Answer see answer above..

 

Look I am all for allowing gays & Lesbiens into scouting, both youth & adult.. 99% would be fine..

 

But as I would not put a male & female in a tent together and figure at their age (be it 11 or 17) nothing would happen, neither would I put a gay with either a boy or a girl in a tent.. Ignoring sexual orientation because I don't quite understand it and can't relate to it, seems pretty naive to me.. How do I know the other boy in the tent is not another gay who is simply not open about it?.. What do you do with someone who swings both ways?

 

Well you can't address the matter, if they are not open about it.. I am sure there are probably a few closet gays teens that are in boy scouts together & tent together.. But you should address the matter to put them in their own ten if they are open about it..

[gregharewood 10]

Some of these discussions seem paranoid and old-fashioned.... but to be completely fair, they are the same sort of discussions that I guess we went through before going co-ed in the 90's :-)

 

I can't tell you that you're wrong. I can't tell you that the British model would work for you, because there are other genuine differences....

 

- We are less militaristic and more pastoral, often with smaller troops, so hopefully we know our individuals better and who will get on with whom

- Hazing has never been a big problem at most Clubs, schools or institutions.

- We have a different age split - Scouts starts are 10 and stops at 14, kids move to Explorer Scouts (14-18). This actually reflects BP's "Senior Scout" split, except that Scouts and Senior Scouts in BP's time came together as one troop on a regular basis. We don't. Explorers is separate.

- Our Scouts traditionally camp in patrol tents, sleeping 6-8.

- Our society is less aggressively competitive in many ways. (Except for Soccer!)

 

In any case, here's how it works. We have stopped look at male/female at all when it comes to leader rules etc.. We don't require female leaders is there are girls on camp or vice versa. We don't distinguish between gay or straight. We simply have guidelines on privacy.

 

When I was a counselor one year at Pine Forest Camp, PA (which was awesome by the way) I slept in a bunk with 12 boys. That would be banned in The (UK) Scout Association. Kids get privacy from adults.

 

Privacy amongst young people is however on a slightly more best-effort basis. You do your damndest to make sure that they are all comfortable and have the privacy that they need. Some care, some don't. I've had more issues with boys amongst other boys that were embarrassed about their bodies than I've had with the girls in my troop. The only girls I've had join are ones who are very practical and muck in anyway. When asked, any preference regarding having their own space had more to do with the boys being slobs than with privacy.

 

Best practice guidelines say two things

- Separate young people boy/girl where possible, always respect privacy

- Safety is more important than privacy.

 

The rulebook (POR) does not codify this - which is handy, because it needs flexibility sometimes. I've heard of international jamboree situations where almost opposite rules apply!

 

In practise in Scouts, if the one girl in a patrol was the PL, I'd stick her in the same tent, otherwise she wouldn't be able to keep things running smoothly etc.. Not all my peer Scouters in the UK would agree, but it's allowed. If possible, a divider would be made available, but if not, somewhere else to get changed (toilet block, behind clump of trees) would suffice so long as all (boys AND girls) were happy.

 

I do send Scout age kids on unsupervised camps and hikes. You have to trust them.

 

At Explorer level, from 14, they camp without me more than with me. It would be a complete waste of time trying to separate them. I try to teach respect and have them understand their responsibilities

 

----

 

Which brings me to the issue of homosexuality.

 

10% of kids will grow up gay. Half of those will at least suspect by the time they are 13. Most won't tell you - certainly in the BSA, which is actively antagonist to gay Scouts. Stop pretending you can separate out every kid or adult who would look lustfully at someone else's body. You can't. You deal with actions, not with thoughts. In practical terms, you teach respect, and you try to provide privacy for any individuals who want it. That's not really about mixed tents... we all know you can change in sleeping bags. But it does mean that you might not want to force kids through shared showers.

 

You can't guess who's going to be gay. Stop trying. Don't try to 'fix' the gay kid. There's nothing wrong with him. Fix the ones who might be offended by giving them privacy.

 

It was always a fallacy to think you could send all the boys into the showers together and think that none of them were looking lustfully at each other. The percentage of men who would turn out gay was always underestimated in the past because it was in their interests not to admit to it. And if you can get to a stage where the stigma of being gay is gone, then you will find people far less traumatised by think they were being glanced at in the showers too.

 

- Teach your Scouts tolerance, respect, health and safety

- Then trust them.

 

 

:-)

Greg H

1st Histon SL (SM), Cambridge, UK

[moosetracker 132]

Greeting gregH..

 

Wow! we are getting some UK attention, which is great to have your input.

 

I don't know how long ago it was that you Where the counselor in PA, but really our rules are that Adults do not sleep or shower or change with the scouts unless it is a parent/scout staying in the same tent..

 

Frankly if the rules here were to sleep all the scouts in one big tent, then I would be fine with that Male/Female Gay/Straight.. But, where the rules are to separate the two sexes, and then I see it only fair treatment to separate the openly gay also.. I do not see my reaction as being homo-phobic, but as fair treatment for all concerned..

 

If it were cabin camping, and we had 10 scouts in one big cabin, I do not feel it would be neccessary at that time to put the openly gay scout in a cabin by themselves.. You are right, there is saftey in numbers. I just don't see it a good idea to put them in a two man tent with someone else..

 

Thanks for some insight into the differences in scouting in the UK, that help you to eliminate the problem, or keep it under better control..

 

We in the USA, just got the right to have patrols camp on their own taken away, but they can still do day activities on their own, like hiking.

[gregharewood 10]

Nice to meet you, moosetracker!

 

I was a counselor in '91, and it wasn't a BSA camp... it was a 10-week regular Summer camp, mostly Jewish. http://www.pineforestcamp.com/

 

I can see how some men or boys might be uncomfortable in a tent with other gay men or boys, but I haven't come across it myself. Most people seem to deal with it fine, and the kids will usually take their cue from the attitudes of the adults around them. I can't say whether it's a cultural difference that just has be deal with or whether you smooth it over with education.

 

Homophobic is a funny word. It's not prejudice per se... it refers to the fear that many people have of being around gay people. And while you will have people with religious beliefs about homosexual actions being sinful, I think you can still do a lot to educate about it being normal and nothing to be scared of. So I'm certainly not accusing YOU of anything - but I think fear is the big problem that needs fixing, I think. They're not out to get us!

 

 

I am SO sorry to hear that Patrol Camping is now canceled. You carry on doing the best you can, but if I was in your position, I would feel like packing up and quitting. I had two unsupervised patrol camps run by 13 year olds last year, and one this year by a 12 year old girl. There were all awesome. Most troops here don't do it, especially as most relied on the 15 year old PL's we had a few years ago. But you CAN still do it, the rules allow it, and it is still the single most memorable experience in Scouting for those who can do it.

 

I haven't posted here before, but I HAVE chatted with US Scouters before.... http://groups.google.com/group/rec.scouting/browse_thread/thread/98be4967f085436f/c6be3e428f3924a4?lnk=gst&q=ukc#c6be3e428f3924a4 all the same stuff comes around and around, doesn't it? :-)

[Eamonn 61]

I don't claim to know a lot about gays or being gay.

Talking with and at times over-hearing what some of our older youth members say.

It seems that for them someone being gay or being openly gay, is not a big deal.

Back when my son was having his 16th birthday party, he invited a Lad who was openly gay and while maybe the adults thought it was odd, the kids at the party seemed not to care in any way.

I have had some fairly in depth conversations with guys in prison who have been convicted of molesting little boys.

They claim they are not gay.

This might be due to the fact that very few inmates do admit they are. Maybe out of fear?

There is how ever a lot of documentation that states that there is a fair amount of sexual acts between male inmates.

I have read different reports that all seem to know when someone finds out what their sexual orientation will happen.

I can't ever remember when I found out that I liked girls more than boys?

While maybe we don't like to talk about it or discuss it. I do remember that as a youth in Scouting there was a lot of what now might be called experimentation. We boys were curious, we wanted to know who had the biggest?

A lot of us had just discovered masturbation, in my case I found out about it from an older Scout.

For many young Lads going through this period of experimentation and self discovery is a time of real turmoil.

Looking back, I suppose some of things that went on and I participated in, might be seen as being homosexual? I don't know.

At that time I remember trying hard to get past "First Base" with girls I took to the movies and not getting very far! But it wasn't for want of trying.

At that time I don't think the word gay was being used? There wasn't to my knowledge a lot of gay or homosexual clubs, pubs or that sort of thing. We viewed homosexuals as being queer, dirty old men who hung out in public restrooms.

Near to where I went to school that was a common (Public Land) Where gay men met and had sex. While I was still at school a gang of boys went to the common to go "Queer Bashing". They ended up killing a gay man.

When I was at school, I don't think anyone no matter what they might have thought that their sexual persuasion was would ever admit to being attracted to someone of the same sex.

While I do now think that it's more healthy for people to know if they are heterosexual or not. I do worry that there are some boys who go through a time of experimentation and because of it and what they are doing are boxed into thinking that they are gay.

At our local HS there seems to nave been a very large number of girls becoming pregnant. Talking with a friend of mine who teaches there he made a joke saying that half the school is pregnant while the other half is claiming to be gay. (Not funny, I know.) She went on to say that there are a lot of boys who now seem to wear being gay as some sort of badge of honor.

 

What gregharewood posts about: "Teach your Scouts tolerance, respect, health and safety - Then trust them."

Makes sense to me.

 

I'm not in my comfort zone talking about sex, especially talking with young people about it.

The topic does come up because of the stand that the BSA has taken.

Nearly all the older Scouts seem to think that the BSA is wrong to discriminate.

In the Ship we have both male and female members. We did have a slight problem with a boy and girl who were going out at the time and the Quarterdeck felt that they needed to ask this pair to cool it.

They (The Quarterdeck) felt that Scouts wasn't the place for kissing and that sort of thing.

I agree with them.

I'm happy for Scouts and Scouting to be a Sex Free Zone.

I also think when it comes to talking about sex with other peoples kids, they can do a lot better than talk to me.

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

[gregharewood 10]

Hi Eamon,

 

A bunch of interesting observations - I want to pick up on this one...

 

"I have had some fairly in depth conversations with guys in prison who have been convicted of molesting little boys.

They claim they are not gay. "

 

One of the most poisonous issue with homosexuality in the US does seem to be that people still think there is some correlation between being gay and being a paedophile. I'm sure it seems like a natural conclusion to someone who thinks they are both equally disgusting and sinful, but it has no basis in fact and is incredibly corrosive. There seems to be active disinformation about this from some fundies.

 

Prisoners are no more or less gay than anyone else. Either they're bored, they're being raped, or they are raping others as an expression of power, like an alpha dog might. It IS possible that fewer will ADMIT to being gay than the normal average. They certainly don't become gay because of something in the air in prison. If they enjoy it, they probably always had it in them.

 

 

Thank goodness more kids ARE growing up feeling relaxed and tolerant about this. I know that my Scouts couldn't care less about which friends or leaders are gay. We had a (young) leader 2 years ago here who came out to the troop during a related discussion. He said (18 months afterwards) how liberating it was and to find how accepting they were.

[Eamonn 61]

Greg,

I agree.

I've also had chats with guys who have molested little girls.

While I'm not in any way an expert or authority on this.

I believe that molestation has more to do with a misuse of power or authority than sex or sexual orientation.

Ea.

[moosetracker 132]

Husband & I were looking into adoption once. I remember one question that got us angry.. I don't remember the exact wording, but to the point it asked if either of us wer gay..

 

We responded, "NO, nor are we pedophiles, which would be a more appropriate question to ask us.."

 

I was thinking the same thing about kids being more tolerant. It is a good thing, and something that my cycle into changes when this generation comes into power.

 

I believe my son is more tolerent of it, and is fine in social situations. I believe I am too.. Still I have never seen him invite a openly gay guy over for a sleepover just the two of them, as he will with other scouts when they need to get up early to get to some scout outting.. Then again, there is no one openly gay in our troop, so I wouldn't know.. Maybe he has..

 

I believe I would be fine using a tent situation where 8 people bunk together as a full patrol, and you are not segregating male from female, then I would not see a reason to segregate the openly gay people either.. But we have tents of two, and currently do segregate male from female, and Adults from youth. With those rules and with two men tents, I don't see why you would not seperate openly gay also. Just seems like a logical flow of how we operate..

[gregharewood 10]

"I believe I would be fine using a tent situation where 8 people bunk together as a full patrol, and you are not segregating male from female, then I would not see a reason to segregate the openly gay people either.. But we have tents of two, and currently do segregate male from female, and Adults from youth. With those rules and with two men tents, I don't see why you would not seperate openly gay also. Just seems like a logical flow of how we operate..."

 

Mostly for the same reason that you don't separate out the black kids ("African Americans") and make them sleep separately.

 

While I can see your point of view, it is still based in some idea that you can completely supervise everything your Scouts do and make sure that nothing bad happens by controlling them rather than respecting them.

 

When considering this point, it is more important to recognize that the gay child will be insecure and minority, not some kind of 3rd, 4th of 5th gender. Treat more like a racial or cultural minority than a sexual problem. Gayness is not something you can measure absolutely in a 12 year old, nor is it definitive. The child might in fact be confused and turn out to be hetero, bisexual, transgender, or whatever else. How many groups would you like to separate into?

 

It makes no sense to legislate for separation. Be sensitive in individual cases and make sure he is with a friend, or at least another kid who simply isn't bothered by it.

 

And then trust them. If you're only trying to control them, it might as well be school.

[Eagledad 2783]

>>10% of kids will grow up gay.

[moosetracker 132]

Nope.. Don't see it.. Problem is in this country we do segregate on sex, due to sexual orientation.. Not on the color of your skin..

 

So to either we seperate on sex, due to sexual orientation across the board, or not at all.. Putting a guy in his own tent really doesn't stick out as much as you would think.. Many troops give the SPL & ASPL's seprate tents, or the PL seprate tents as a priviledge of their position. If there is a low attendance and plenty of tents, other kids ask if they can have their own tent..

 

Now, if we stop seperating Male from Female, then you don't seperate out the gays either..