Can you still be a Christian if

[qwazse 4344]

NJS - This thread is about what Christians believe, which is why I have not weighed in, since it's really none of my business.

 

Since, the term was given to us by non-Christians, it's allowed to be everyone's busines. What you think, looking from the outside, is pretty important.

 

... mentioned members of another religion ... and what they think about what Christians believe ... I don't think we need to be singling out anybody in particular. Ok?

 

BP referenced theologians who asserted the ressurection was mere fabrication by early church leaders. My point was, you don't have to be a highly regarded theologian to assert such a thing. But, you'd might as well not be Christian. It's true, that you could adhere to any number of religions and have that opinion, but of all those who I know who have a lot to say on the one particualar issue, they had been of Jewish faith (either by birth or conversion).

 

Also, I was very specific with the use of the word "strident", some of my Jewish friends don't have a problem with the resurrection, some don't even have a problem with the "Son of God" title. They do have a problem that modern (i.e. anything after the 6th century) Christians suppressed the Biblical holy days and over time made the religion more Western/Imperial and less Jewish. It's really hard to reconcile that an opressor of your family could be your brother in faith.

 

My bottom line: one good way to get an honest definition of Christianity is to listen to what folks outside the faith have to say about it. They may say good things, they may say bad. All of them help fill in the big picture. That includes -- as much as BadenP wishes it were the contrary -- this propensity for sects and factions. But the resurrection from the dead is common thread among all the views that I've heard or read about. If you don't have that, folks will stop calling you a Christian.

 

 

[BadenP 93]

Qwasze

 

You really do live in your own little world don't you, look in my last post I was talking specifically about Christian theologians. No you don't have to be a credentialed theologian to not believe in the resurrection, however without some kind of credentials few will take anything you say very seriously. Sects or denominations occur because of the reinterpretation or misinterpretation of scripture, the credible ones tend to last a while while the rest eventually die out as their interpretations are eventually proven false.

 

So even if you live a "good life" but never believe in Jesus as the son of God or in a higher being can you still be a Christian? The answer is definitely NO.

[packsaddle 753]

"Good point, but that is exactly what people do and its called denominations. Roman Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Mormon, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, etc.,"

 

...sigh, if only there were as many flavors of ice cream. Now THAT would be heavenly.

[qwazse 4344]

You really do live in your own little world don't you.

 

Yes, it is a pleasant one with Muslims, Jews, Bhuddist, Jains, Athiests, etc ... with whom I have honest conversations about matters of faith. We've spent some good moments trying convert each other!

 

No you don't have to be a credentialed theologian to not believe in the resurrection, however without some kind of credentials few will take anything you say very seriously.

 

Actually, I find if your are willing to pray for someone when they're sick, visit them when they're in prison, morn with them at the loss of a loved one, welcome them when they're a stranger, they'll take you pretty seriously.

 

I take a theologian seriously if he/she make sense. Calling oneself a Christian and denying the resurrection of the body does not make sense.

 

Sects or denominations occur because of the reinterpretation or misinterpretation of scripture

 

Or because there is something intrinsic to a religion that lends itself to sectarianism. Or, because the Holy Spirit has plans that require folks to part as if it were Paul and Barnabas all over again. I have no idea which it is, but when I see great folks with seemingly identical interpretation of scripture, yet in different camps, it leads me to doubt that it's as simple as you put it. It's more stuff that's just gotta sort itself out in eternity.

 

So even if you live a "good life" but never believe in Jesus as the son of God or in a higher being can you still be a Christian? The answer is definitely NO.

 

Agreed. There is actually more to being called Christian than putting all your chips on one historical event, but this is the biggest piece of the puzzle.

[packsaddle 753]

I am among some persons who believe that the Messiah died and was not resurrected. In fact his bones were discovered years later buried under a latrine, according to some accounts. They still believe he was the Messiah, the actual living Jesus Christ. However, I think they would be very adverse to being called Christians and certainly do NOT refer to themselves as Christian. They are actually suspicious-to-fearful of conventional Christianity, partly because of the violence and exploitation they've received from so-called Christians.

I am constantly reminded..."The purpose of religion isn't to bring people together."

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmm....

 

To answer da original question, "No."

 

I reckon it's not a very good question though, eh?

 

Da proper question I figure is not what someone says, eh? Ain't whether they adhere to or deny some words or definitions here or there. Those sorts of arguments, like da date of Easter or Filiouque or whether Henry deserves a divorce or whether yeh can buy your way into heaven by good works or money are all just human frailty and noise.

 

Da proper question is "What is your relationship with God in your heart?". The sacrifice he demands is a humble and contrite spirit.

 

I've met folks who confessed Christendom who I reckon would have held the nails for da Romans if they had the chance, so hard is their heart. And I've met those who are of no confession whom I have no doubt would be the thief who calls an innocent man an innocent man, and is told "this day you shall be with me in Paradise."

 

Faith saves, but only faith of the heart, not of the lips.

 

Beavah

[BadenP 93]

 

"Faith saves, but only faith of the heart, not of the lips."

 

Partially true Beav, but not completely. If St. Paul and the other disciples had not risked their lives and carried the "good news" to most of the civilized world of their day it is quite possible that "Christianity" would have remained a small localized cult that would have died out completely over time. Faith is so hard for so many people to discuss with others without arguing. Being raised Catholic I would say that it is particularly true for them. The reasons are many, Catholic faith centers more on the rituals of the mass and sacraments instead of the Bible and works of their Christian counterparts. Catholicism is more internalized to the individual instead of outwardly proclaimed like other Christian groups. In Catholicism the clergy have the ultimate control, where in other Christian groups the people have control, and the list goes on.

 

Faith of the heart is very essential to being Christian, but to keep it internalized only runs contrary to the teachings of the Bible and the message of Jesus.

 

[qwazse 4344]

Good points, Beav and BP, but more broad than what this topic can handle. We're moving from what it takes to for someone to label you "Christian," to what it takes to be accepted by God.

 

We'd like those two to be synonymous, but I think they are two different things with a whole lot of overlap. (Of course the presupposition is that there is a God who accepts, and His acceptance actually means something tangible to human flesh -- big leaps of faith there.) There are a lot of folks who are getting by in this life with just one or the other (or neither).

 

In the same way "head" knowlege and "muscle" belief aren't really separable even though we treat them as two different things. And, yes, if there weren't saints who put their muscle behind what they knew in their heads, the lot of us would still be waiting for that wikipedia entry on the "good news."

[qwazse 4344]

[sorry, double post](This message has been edited by qwazse)

[BadenP 93]

qwasze

 

Thats what topics in the I&P section usually do, go off into other related questions, but nothing is too "broad" to handle, especially if it has a direct relationship to the topic, which this does.

[Trevorum 24]

pack, that sounds archeological. Can you shoot me a ref?

[Scoutfish 16]

Eagledad,

 

What do YOU think? I mean it just like that too. Forget what anybody else...collectively or singularly thinks. Forget what "the establishment" thinks.

 

I say this because each person is unique in what they truely and faithfully believes. You can go through the motions of a Christain, but if you don't truely believe..then it's all for nothing. You may not actually go through the motions, but could truyely believe ( that's what I'd consider the better of the two) what counts .

 

At one time, society as a whole would outcast others for not being Christains when in fact, it was just not being exactly like the first party.

 

Remember the Salem witch trials?

How about women in pants?

How about those scournfull women who actually let their ankles see daylight?

Oh the shame of it all!

 

At one time, people would label other people who did not share the same beliefs as non Christains or worse: devil worshipers.

 

Then look at organized religion in general: For every thing that is probably correct, there is another which has been misconstrued, warped or chhanged just for the sake of keeping power.

 

Ole King Henry the 8th wanted to get divorced , but that was a big ole sinfull no no! Uh -uh...you get divorced and you were going to get really hot when you died.

 

So what to do right?

 

Hey! Why not create another religion, or another of the current one where it is in fact, okay and blessed to get divorced?

 

Then, without saying you have to agree / disagree or take sides...look at all the gay clergy issues. Used to it was without a doubt wrong. But now.....there are two sides or factions if you will.

 

Some are okay witrh it, others are not?

 

Why?

 

People! And don't get me wrong - I have my faith, but I also know that man printed the bible. Man translated and edited the bible to suit his needs.

 

I do not think for a minute that God has ever contradicted himself, but the bilbe, which was written by man does have contradictions, and conflict. The bible isn't even complete and some chapters kinda leave stuff out or cut off short .

 

Why? Because man tries to take any and everything and tries to use it for his own gain. Politics, power, control.

 

The bible says ( in a nutshell) that Jesus said we are a temple to God. Yet we are led to believe prayers outside of church ( or a collection plate) don't count or have as much effect.

 

Preachers will preach every Sunday about why we are soppused to be humble and to bow before God while shrugging ofrf the world and all of it's eveil materialistic things...right before they climb into their high priced limos and Cadillacs that they tell you they especially desrve as a man of the cloth.

 

Then there is the whole Sabbath. It's really on Saturday, but if you mention it, you get hushed or told not to stir things up. Really? If God says we rest on the Sabbath, then we rest..unless it'c inconveinent - right?

 

I know people who totally bel,ive in Jesus, but they do not think the ressurection has happened...YET!

 

Thedy know it will, but don't think it has happened yet.

 

I also know some who think the rapture has already happened and we are living a hell of earth as we speak. WE are being given the final test to see where we will end up.

 

Me? I'm just going along for the ride. I don't know a whoe lot, but I know man has screwed up alot of religion!

[BDPT00 41]

I sure don't know what all of that was about, but I think it might have been a "yes."

Rather than even attempt to address any of it (How in the world would one even try to do it?! Can't beat the logic, eh?), I'll simply counter with "no."

BDPT00

[Eagledad 2779]

Scoutfish, it's clearly no.

 

Oh, the bible is God's word and was inspired by God. If it were not, it would be useless.

 

What, the resurrection happened, but not the rest?

 

Barry

[Scoutfish 16]

Just saying..man has changed religions so much toi suit their own needs. man has run with his own interpretation that he might be off a bit. and given time, we end up nowhere close to what we started with.

 

Peoples knowledge of what is what in religion has evolved, changed and been modified so much..plus toss in a bunch of how each of us understands it( or not) and

 

the info is no more accurate that what the popular view is at the time.