Calling all Birthers

[BS-87 30]

Except that we really are at the top of the heap, whether we deserve it or not.

 

We need to defend our position at the top of the heap, not run down the hill to join the masses struggling towards the top.

[packsaddle 753]

I think you need to take a closer look at the heap you think you're on. Have you noticed a bad smell?

[skeptic 997]

Pack; am afraid that many have learned to ignore the smell; or blame it on someone or something else.

[BS-87 30]

The heap we're on is not garbage.

 

Our people are overwhelmingly fortunate to be Americans.

 

Maybe packsaddle and skeptic would rather be Bangladeshi?

[sherminator505 10]

Ah, yes! American Exceptionalism! Too bad we forgot about what created that in the first place and let it get it shipped off piece by piece, leaving us to cling to what is now little more than mythology.

[CalicoPenn 729]

"By special role I mean that the United States serves as the strongest economic, military, and social welfare force in the world."

 

At one time the Phoenicians were the strongest economic, military and social welfare force in the world. At one time the Egyptians were the strongest economic, military and social welfare force in the world. At one time the Greeks were the strongest economic, military and social welfare force in the world. At one time the Romans were the strongest economic, military and social welfare force in the world. At one time the British were the strongest economic, military and social welfare force in the world (heck - that wasn't even that long ago in terms of history - they even held that role through a significant portion of the existence of the United States).

 

One of the things that every single one of them had in common was that they learned, the hard way, that trying to maintain that "unique" status of being the strongest economic, military and social welfare force in the world is expensive and not sustainable.

 

God forbid we have a President who actually has a sense of history and realizes that "American Exceptionalism" is no different now than it was when it was the Phoenecians, Romans, Egyptians, Greeks or British were the folks at the top of the heap, and is trying to keep us from falling off the same darn cliff that all those other folks fell off, in the exact same way, over and over and over again during the history of civilization.

 

 

[BS-87 30]

CalicoPenn -

 

You're both right and wrong.

 

We are just like those previous superpowers.

 

You are wrong by saying that this position is not sustainable.

 

 

 

Trump may actually have the best idea on how to make sure we keep our place at the top. It's a shame he's just playing politician instead of giving it a serious go...(This message has been edited by BS-87)

[packsaddle 753]

Sherm, It sounds a lot like nationalism as well. I am reminded of a quote from Einstein, who credited nationalism with a lot of the problems of that time, "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

 

Orwell called it something like hunger for power combined with self-deception.

 

BS-87, would that it WERE garbage. Do you actually know the history of Bangladesh? The answer to your question is 'no' but this country doesn't have the conditions needed to produce a Bangladesh and can't, no matter what happens. What we can do is to let our economy implode from unbridled debt, thus forcing us to cut public access to services like good infrastructure, education, etc. That really IS possible. And without things like good education, I would agree that the future is dim. By some measures we're already there.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[vol_scouter 365]

Beavah;

 

First, to be in scouting you must have a background check so don't get your fur up for a little bit more for the most important job in our country. Otherwise, the constitution is just a set of suggestions to use if convenient and discard otherwise. Middle school age sets a lot of values and beliefs for young people as we all see working with youth (that is the real reason that we do it). So I do not see such issues as insignificant. Obama came from near obscurity on the national stage to president in a very short time. As folks have tried to dig into his past, there are aspects that some people would find disturbing. The voters would have been better served had all those issues been brought up during the primaries so that voters could determine if those issues would affect their votes. This is not acceptable and should be prevented from happening again. Just because you have not had to produce such records or agree that a potential employer can access them does not mean that it is not becoming the standard.

 

Lastly, it is dangerous to a democracy to attempt to stifle debate by implied folks are racist because they disagree with someone's politics or have legitimate concerns about their past.

[packsaddle 753]

Vol, BS-87 is the first response that actually used the term 'racism'.

[BS-87 30]

packsaddle - I'm glad to know you value the American way, it's just a shame we don't agree on how to fix our current problems. The first and foremost being debt, the second being entitlements (which is tied to the first). Welfare only creates the need for welfare. Safety nets are good and all, but they can only be a net, not a hand trying to push them back up. Social Security has only succeeded in making our seniors and future seniors dependent on Social Security. Obama is not a strong leader willing to make the changes we truly need to make, because he is only worried about reelection. We cannot deficit spend, we cannot allow anything to become too big to fail, and we cannot allow ourselves to spend the money of children who aren't even conceived in the minds of their future parents yet!

 

vol_scouter is correct. We need to remain focused on what the facts in the debate are, and not resort to stifling tactics like calling the opponent insensitive, racist, or evil. If you are forced to assume your opponent is only wrong because they're insensitive, racist, or evil, then you MUST concede that you are possibly wrong and they are right.

 

In this thread I've presented what my thoughts are on the "birther" or "eligibility" issue, and was not disproven. What it eventually had to come to was an assumption of my racism. Maybe that says more about those who refuse to accept the possibility I'm right. Maybe it says they're so set in their beliefs that they cannot conceive of any way they can be wrong and will assume the worst of their opponents to assume their superiority in argument. Such a mindset is deplorable and not conducive to debate.

[vol_scouter 365]

packsaddle, Beavah's post clearly implied (which was the word that I used) that anyone who at this particular juncture in history wants full disclosure and better definition of the requirements for president is a racist. I, like many others, have never seen a major candidate with so many question marks about their past which has spurred the concerns. That is not racism.

[Woapalanne 11]

" the constitution is just a set of suggestions to use if convenient and discard otherwise " THAT is the attitude of most of Washington and the source of most of our problems.

[BS-87 30]

"And if yeh do find it reasonable for some reason, then I reckon yeh have to ask yourself why for this president and no one before?" - Beavah

 

"I think we know the answer to your last question." - skeptic

 

 

You can say that I'm the first one to sling the phrase "racism", but I think the rest of us will admit what these posts insinuate.

 

[Beavah 205]

Middle school age sets a lot of values and beliefs for young people as we all see working with youth (that is the real reason that we do it).

 

Yah, rigghhht. So when was da last time you requested middle school transcripts and references from any job applicant? We work with young people hopin' to give 'em a start, but we assess adults by what they have done as adults.

 

In da law, we have a statute of limitations on most offenses just because it's in the very nature of things to become more murky and suspicious over time. Witnesses die. Memories fade. Records are discarded or destroyed. Subjects move on and can't be found. All this is normal. How many of your middle school teachers are still alive? Is da school you attended still open? Has it been turned into a parking garage? Can you say where all your 6th grade classmates are?

 

Obama went to an outstanding middle school in Hawaii under the loving care of a WW2 veteran and his Rosey-the-Riveter wife. So even though such a question would be out of bounds for any job application anywhere, it's been asked and answered.

 

I agree that legitimate questions about background merit discussion. Did he have enough foreign policy experience? When he taught constitutional law, how did he approach it? With limited business background, what's his experience with finance and da budgets of major enterprises? All these and more are areas where his background can be called into question.

 

I also reckon it's OK to ask folks to reflect on the nature and source of questions that seem to transgress the ordinary bounds of legitimacy. When people depart from da norms, there's a reason. I don't know or claim to know what it is. Misplaced anger? Transference of personal economic frustration? Over-the-top partisanship? Bias? Da fact that there are "so many questions" floatin' around the internet to my mind is only a reflection of da number of people holding such views, eh? Or da number of people who stand to profit by spreadin' such views. Neither constitute a reason for makin' such questions legitimate.

 

Now I return yeh to BS-87's treatise on American exceptionalism

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)