LDS, Christians, and Politics

[packsaddle 753]

Captainron14, I'll try to explain the relevance to scouting. I agree with you that it is a thin connection but the connection is, nevertheless, there.

 

Greg Nelson was originally reponsible for the idea behind this thread when he stated, "I've seen more than one poster claim that Scouting is a Christian activity, and it's no secret that many of the posters here are strong Christians. (As are the large majority of Scouts.)"

Admittedly he made this statement back when Rooster7 was waxing eloquently (raving and ranting?) about his faith but Greg's statement is the link to scouting. I was curious about his statement and I asked if Mormons considered themselves to be Christian? My question was relevant because of the prominence of the Mormons in BSA. That was on page 2 of the 'thread of origin'. The remainder of that thread was a fairly clear demonstration (Beavah's claims of brotherhood notwithstanding) that little differences in religious beliefs create very large separations between people.

I started this thread because the fractures evident in the previous thread seemed to parallel some of the fractures I'm reading and hearing now that some candidates on the Republican slate have decided to make their personal religious beliefs a political issue.

Ok, again I agree the connection is by a thin thread...but the connection is there. And it is interesting to read the various views.

The thing is, while everyone seems to have siezed on the Mormon 'thing', and while Romney tried to submerge that as an issue, Huckabee is openly defining himself in terms of his faith and there seems to be little, if any, similar discussion. Or perhaps there just aren't any Mormon forum members up to mounting similar attacks?

[John-in-KC 311]

Our personal salvation is a different matter from our national political life. The Framers wanted a government where religion was not an inherent function of the government. If you want more detail, go back and read the Federalist Papers.

 

That said, it's also blindingly obvious the Framers expected all people to be exercising faith in their personal lives. Was there an a-theist Framer? I've not found him yet.

 

The wall of separation dates to Wm O Douglas and 1947... within some of our lifetimes, and near many of our lifetimes.

 

The real issue is does the politician use one or more moral/ethical cornerstones to anchor his professional life? Those cornerstones can be faith, the 10 commandments, the Scout Oath and LAw... but something that is absolute, not relative. When we unhinge morality from the absolute, we get the moral slop we now have.

 

What I'm looking for in all candidates is: Is it blindingly obvious their faith is one of their moral cornerstones. I expect most people practicing a Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition to want strong law covering civil order, to want strong law protecting the sanctity of all human life (from conception to death), and to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto God that which is God's."

 

So far, I've been singularly unimpressed with the field. Almost every candidate is pandering to a base. No one seems to have a strong, coherent vision for our Nation that looks at how we attack the myriad of issues facing us.

 

America's challenges will not get well with the wave of a hand. They require mature, thoughtful, coherent compromise. Didn't someone once say politics is the art of the possible? Why these days do we have polemics as the art of the concrete?

 

OK, enough diatribe. I now return you to figuring out if Mr Romney, because of his faith, is a suitable candidate. I've made that decision for me... but he's unsuitable for reasons other than his faith.

[packsaddle 753]

John-in-KC, you just wrote of absolutes and then later you mentioned the importance of compromise. How do you reconcile these two concepts?

[Beavah 205]

The remainder of that thread was a fairly clear demonstration (Beavah's claims of brotherhood notwithstanding) that little differences in religious beliefs create very large separations between people.

 

????

 

Nah.

 

A few disagreements about terms and some heated arguments.

 

Yeh should see the enthusiasts debate the merits of the Packers vs. the Bears.

 

B

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Bears vs Packers?

 

Not much to debate when you consider a Superbowl Team was dismantled from within and the Bears are about to start their 33rd quarterback in 137 games while Favre has started well over 200 plus.

 

And this from a guy whose Christmas list contains fatheads of Butkus, Sayers and Sweetness

[funscout 11]

I always thought Mormons were not Christians since they believe Jesus is just another prophet, not THE way to salvation. For Mormons to be Christian, they would have to personally denounce some of the Mormon beliefs that go against Christianity. Would that make them no longer Mormon? I don't know. I'll have to agree with Mike Huckabee's response to the question of whether or not he believed Mitt Romney was a Christian. Huckabee responded that only Romney could answer what was in his own heart.

 

One thing I have always admired about Mormons is their strong sense of family. I would not have a problem with a president who was Mormon or Jewish, even though I am Christian. I have to confess, though, that given the recent years of hate/terror directed at Christians by SOME Muslims, I would not be able to bring myself to vote for a Muslim. I know that not all Muslims are bad, but I'm still frightened by the past and current terrorism.

 

On a lighter note, I was once seated next to a young Mormon girl on a flight to Utah. When she saw that I was drinking 7-up, she asked if I also drank colas. I told her that the only soda pop I ever drank was 7-up or Sprite. She then asked if I drank coffee. I told her that I didn't like coffee, and she got a huge smile on her face as she exclaimed, "You could be a Mormon!" If only religion and politics were truly so simple!

 

 

[John-in-KC 311]

ps,

 

There are some issues on which I believe there can be no compromise. We, as a society, should enshrine the sanctity of human life from conception forward. OTOH, we dismantled the support system for unwed mothers over 4 decades ago; they are on their own. You can't be pro-life without proposing a solution. No, just saying no isn't the universal answer. Ever since Adam and Eve, conception has happened. It's not wishable away.

 

OTOH, how we determine the proper mix of road, rail, riverine, air, highway, and pipeline as transportation nodes is an area reasonable folk can find middle ground. The guiding principle should be how do we move the most goods with the least environmental damage?

 

The American worker, in proper adult full-time employment, has a right to a living wage with benefits. "The laborer is worthy of his wages." This means appropriate education and training. I'd rather see additional subsidy for personal development than increases in the "minimum wage."

 

Does that make sense?

[OldGreyEagle 5]

It was January 2, 2002. The day after all the bowl game, well most of them anyway. I was on my way to Salt Lake City, where the Company I serve is headquartered. I had to go through Atlanta. I was stuck at the Airport for 26 hours before we took off for Salt Lake City because of an ice storm. I am not sure what Bowl BYU was in, but I know most of the SLC attendees were going through Atlanta. We were on a plane, taxing around Hartsfield for 8 hours before we were brought back to the terminal the flight delayed some more. I got to know many of the pasengers of that flight. Mostly BYU students and Alums and their children. Might I add, very young children. No one got upset, no one raised any ruckus they all wanted to get home and were very pleasant even when they all ran out of diapers and all the airlines had to feed us was peanuts, snack crackers and soda. The children were as a group very well behaved, they were tired and cranky but always minded their parents. When we touched down in SLC, a heartfelt cheer went up. I often think about that experience. Eight hours on a plane, on the ground and we didnt take off. Back to the termianl and we didnt take off for another 8 hours. even when we took off it was 6 hours to SLC. I wonder, what the atmosphere would have been like had we been going to Philadelphia, Boston or Detroit? What the mood would have been and it scares me. Beleive, if you have to be trapped with any group of people in such a stressful position, pray to God they are LDS

 

 

[acco40 95]

OGE, did you happen to view the South Park episode when one of the kids "befriends" a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) boy? It is hilarious! His family is "perfect" and well behaved - sort of like the folks on your plane. One of my co-workers is Mormon and a great guy (boy that looks stupid in print).

 

Face it, most Mormons had parents who were Mormon. Most Catholics, Lutherans, Jews, etc. are the same. For me, I bristle at those who feel one needs faith or "religion" to behave ethically and have "character." That is my beef with the BSA.

 

George W. Bush is our first (I think) true "born again" US President.

 

For those who proclaim a "sanctity for life" how does one balance that with becoming the Commander in Chief? Is killing an innocent fetus any less or any more "wrong" than an innocent 3 year old Iraqi child? Is a terrorist's life (i.e. Osama Bin Laden) worth any more or less than a two month old fetus? Hard questions that I don't have the answer for.

 

People talk about separating church and state, Ceasar/God, etc. But we as a society make moral judgments all the time (is it wrong to steal bread to feed your starving children?) based on our religious upbringing. Should organized religion tell it's flock how to vote? Well, I don't think they should but they should be allowed to do it.

 

The world is a complicated place. I thought George (Romney not Bush) was an excellent Governor but I'm not to impressed with his son (sort of like Bush/Bush too). Why do the candidates I "like" never seem to have a chance? (Biden!). I guess it's because only the front runners get the high scrutiny?

 

For myself, a candidates view on stem cell research, abortion, capital punishment, and other hot button issues are "don't cares." I'd rather weigh his "beliefs" on things he/she has direct control (defense spending, foreign policy, taxes, basic role of government, etc.).

 

With apologies to Mr. Zimmerman (is he a Christian these days?)

Oh my name it is nothin'

My age it means less

The country I come from

Is called the midwest

It's taught and brought up there

The laws to abide

And that land that I live in

Has God on it's side.

 

Oh the history books tell it

They tell it so well

The cavalries charged

The Indians fell

The cavalries charged

The Indians died

Oh the country was young

With God on it's side.

 

Oh the Spanish-American

War had it's day

And the civil war too

Was soon laid away

And the names of the heroes

I's made to memorize

With guns in their hands

And God on their side.

 

Oh the first world war, boys

It closed out it's fate

The reason for fighting

I never got straight

But I learned to accept it

Accept it with pride

For you don't count the dead

When god's on your side.

 

When the second world war

Came to an end

We forgave the Germans

And we were friends

 

Though they murdered six million

In the ovens they fried

The Germans now too

Have God on their side.

 

I've learned to hate Russians

All through my whole life

If another war starts

It's them we must fight

To hate them and fear them

To run and to hide

And accept it all bravely

With God on my side.

 

But now we got weapons

Of the chemical dust

If fire them we're forced to

Then fire them we must

One push of the button

And a shot the world wide

And you never ask questions

When god's on your side.

 

In a many dark hour

I've been thinkin' about this

That Jesus Christ

Was betrayed by a kiss

But I can't think for you

You'll have to decide

Whether Judas Iscariot

Had God on his side.

 

So now as I'm leavin'

I'm weary as hell

The confusion I'm feelin'

Ain't no tongue can tell

The words fill my head

And fall to the floor

If God's on our side

He'll stop the next war.

 

P.S. He didn't.

 

[Gold Winger 9]

"George W. Bush is our first (I think) true "born again" US President."

 

Jame Earl Carter comes to mind.

[SSScout 1615]

Boy, took a while to wade thru this.

 

Buddhists aren't Chrstian. Muslims aren't. (I'm 'commissioning' a new Troop and Pack sponsored by a mosque). Hindus aren't Christians (met a couple of HScouts at the Jamboree). I've even met some Christians that didn't act much like the Jesus I know.

 

 

"""((joke))Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

 

He said, "Yes."

I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"

He said, "A Christian."

I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"

He said, "Baptist."

I said, "That's great! Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Wonderful! Me, too!

Northern ConservativeBaptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."

I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

 

So ya pays yer money and ya takes yer cherce.

 

If a LDS person considers themself a Christian, it ultimately isn't for me to say nay.

 

but still, "by their fruits ye shall know them."

 

I think it was Gandhi who said that the most Christian person he ever met was Muslim.

(This message has been edited by SSScout)

[packsaddle 753]

Gold Winger, you took the words right out from under my fingers, thanks. But technically, Gerald Ford preceeded Carter in that status although he was very private about his faith.

"...even when we took off it was 6 hours to SLC."

OGE, you have my deepest sympathy for that ordeal in ATL, I know it well. But if it really took 6 hours to get from ATL to SLC, someone should have been pedaling faster. I've made that flight for decades and 6 hours in the air will put you out in the Pacific...assuming those are jet engines of course, not props.

Flight: Delta 1285 Departs: 12:00 pm from Atlanta, Georgia Arrives: 2:09 pm at Salt Lake City, Utah

including two time zones, flight time is only about 4 hours.

[GernBlansten 10]

Your religion should only be important to yourself and no one else.

[Beavah 205]

Your religion should only be important to yourself and no one else.

 

? ? ? ?

 

No, that's your underwear.

 

If you're truly religious, then that's the religio, the bond or rule by which you live. That says more about you than your clothes, your race, your nationality, and your background/experience. Yeh can even see it here in terms of how different people approach scoutin' questions. Those from more centralized-authority religious traditions tend to view BSA materials more like centralized authority; those from fundamentalist backgrounds tend to be fundamentalist about G2SS and the scout handbook, eh? Our atheists like Merlyn tend to be overly legal, while mainline protestant types tend to err more toward personal conscience .

 

Da problem is that most folks runnin' for public office aren't really religious. They're just puttin' on the costume.

 

Dat's probably why Huckabee comes across better in Iowa than Romney, eh? Not because Romney's a Mormon, but because for Romney religion sure looks like it's a costume.

 

And that says a lot about a person, eh? More than his underwear.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[GernBlansten 10]

My daddy always said, "Religious opinions are like rectums. Everybody's got one, you don't mind hearing your own, but you really don't like hearing someone elses."