The atheists thing again

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, public schools aren't citizens; public schools HAVE no first amendment rights. School administrators have first amendment rights, but only as individuals; they cannot misuse their authority to have public schools follow their religious precepts.

 

If public schools DID have first amendment rights, that includes freedom of association, right Ed? And that would mean that public schools could decide not to associate with Catholics and expel them, right Ed?

[DanKroh]

"I just went to www.paulharvey.com and listened to the archive of Tuesday's broadcast. He said that according to Newsweek Magazine, 91% of Amercian adults believe in God, atheists, however noisy, are just 3% of us. If I'm not mistaken, you would say that Newsweek magazine is a reliable source. But, to be sure, i looked it up, it's in the March 30, 2007, Newsweek. I guess your "reliable" polling data isn't reliable, Me thinks you're wrong."

 

So Newsweek is more reliable than a peer reviewed, academic study (ARIS). Riiiiight. Obviously you've never worked in journalism.

 

"I wouldn't mind if a pentagram wee put up, as long as it's display is proportional to the number of wiccans in town. So, Christmas get 3 weeks, pentagram gets 10 minutes. It's only fair on a per capita basis."

 

Well,that's about how long it would probably last before is was vandalized anyway. Does the menorah get it's 8 hours, too? (Since Jews are 1.3%) Oh wait, but Hannukah lasts 8 nights, not 8 hours. Uh oh.

 

"Be glad you live here, in the "good ol' US of A" as you put it. There is no execution or murder because you believe differently. Believe on!"

 

Nope, no execution here. Murder? Well, motivations for hate-crimes can be notoriously hard to prove. But we got plenty of discrimination!

 

"If it's OK for schools to discriminate by having all-girl teams, they are dicriminating based on gender, how about the senior ciizen who want to use the tax payer funded community center for indoor walking. The age discrimination isnt it? You can't have it both ways."

 

Yes, it has been said before, but obviously bears repeating, there are some types of discrimination that are legal, even by public schools. If you want to know why that discrimination is legal, ask a lawyer. I believe that is Merlyn's calling, not mine.

 

If anyone wants to have it both ways, it is the BSA. They want to have their status as a private religious organization so that they can LEGALLY discriminate, but then they cry foul when they are kept to the same standards as other private religious organizations. Poof, do they disappear, too?

[DanKroh]

Gonzo, you originally said "I heard on Paul Harvey yesterday that 91 % of the US says they are Christian"

 

But then you said: "He said that according to Newsweek Magazine, 91% of Amercian adults believe in God"

 

So which is it, 91% is Christian, or 91% believes in God. You do see that the two are not the same thing, I hope? I would actually believe that in a random poll conducted by a non-academic study that they might get 91% who believe in God, and 87% who actually profess SOME religion. According to the article Merlyn linked to, the Christians only made up 82%. That's a little higher than ARIS's 77% in 2001, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was within the margin of error (which is usually at least 5% with these things). Hmmm. Think I find the ARIS data more convincing. Being an actual study, and not just a poll.

 

The poll even admits that they may have gotten an artifically low result for "atheist" because of the stigma attached to that word. Imagine, someone doesn't want to identify themselves as atheist because they think they will be treated differently a result....

 

[evmori]

Ed, public schools aren't citizens; public schools HAVE no first amendment rights. School administrators have first amendment rights, but only as individuals; they cannot misuse their authority to have public schools follow their religious precepts.

 

If public schools DID have first amendment rights, that includes freedom of association, right Ed? And that would mean that public schools could decide not to associate with Catholics and expel them, right Ed?

 

Since public schools aren't citizens and have no 1st Amendment rights, how can the be in violation of 1st Amendment rights? And since public schools are owned by the citizens in their district, if the citizens voted to allow a BSA unit to be chartered by the public schools in their district, would that be OK?

 

DanKroh,

 

Menorahs are left alone while all Christian symbols must be removed. Christians want nothing more than a level playing field

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[GernBlansten]

From USNews

 http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070308/8prothero.htm

With roughly 9 in 10 of its citizens claiming to believe in God or a Supreme Being, America is widely acknowledged to be the most religious of modern industrial nations. Yet when it comes to knowledge about religion, it ranks among the most ill-informed. While close to two thirds of all Americans regard the Bible as a source of answers to life's questions, only half can name even one of the New Testament Gospels. Similarly, in a land of growing religious diversity, only 10 percent of U.S. teenagers can name the world's five major religions. Stephen Prothero, the head of the department of religion at Boston University, calls this condition a "major civic problem." His new book, Religious Literacy, tells how we got hereand how we might do better.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, students in the school ARE individuals with first amendment rights, and if the public school discriminates among them on the basis of their religious views, that's a violation of the students' first amendment rights. And no, the voters can't vote to violate the rights of the students.

 

And to answer your question to Dan, the courts at this time have made the (rather nonsensical, in my opinion) decision that menorahs and christmas trees are not religious symbols, but crosses and creches are.

[DanKroh]

"Menorahs are left alone while all Christian symbols must be removed. Christians want nothing more than a level playing field"

 

Ed, I agree that a level playing field is best. In my experience, though, it is not the Christians who are not given a level playing field, but everyone else. See a lot of Passover displays on municipal property this time of year? Is your town holding a matza-ball hunt as well as an Easter egg hunt? Did they have an Ostara display back on March 21st?

 

Our schools are closed today for Good Friday. But my kids had to go to school on Ostara. They didn't get off for the first night of Passover. They get off for Christmas, but not for Yule or Hannukah. Does that sound like a level playing field to you?

[evmori]

Students in a school district are, with minimal exceptions, minors. And it is my understanding that minors really have no rights. So how can their rights be violated?

 

It might be worth trying to get something passed in a school district regarding allowing BSA units to be chartered by public schools in the district. hmmmmmmmmmm

 

A blessed Good Friday to all.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[TheScout]

"They get off for Christmas, but not for Yule or Hannukah. Does that sound like a level playing field to you?"

 

So am I correct to believe you think we should make American kids go to school on Christmas?

 

That doesn't seem to be a good idea.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed, it is my understanding that you have no understanding of civil rights. Minors definitely have first amendment rights. Using your increasingly bizarre concept that public schools have first amendment rights and that the students do not, there's nothing stopping public schools from, say, having mandatory prayers to satan, right? Perfectly legal in your cube-shaped world?

[TheScout]

Merlyn, your belief that the citizens of the municipality which owns and runs the school have seeming no rights to determine the extent of religion in your school is as well extremely bizare.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Anyone else want to take over explaining what religious freedom is? This is seriously cutting into my teaching-pigs-to-sing time.

[OldGreyEagle]

If we beleive the statement that minors do not have Civil Rights, then we need to impeach the Supreme Court for hearing the case of that kid from Alaska, you know, the "Bong Hits 4 Jeusus" guy. Quite sacriligeous to my way of thinking, but still legal, as it should be.

 

As a child of the 60's, I beleive there were multiple Federal Court cases, some Supreme Court, some lower that had to do with schools and hair length, clothes as a political statement and oh yes, what was that last one? ::thinking:: ::thinking::, thats it, someone will have to help me here, but didnt some Court find that a minor child has a right to seek an abortion without informing her parents? And wasnt that decided because of Civil Rights?

[DanKroh]

"So am I correct to believe you think we should make American kids go to school on Christmas?

 

That doesn't seem to be a good idea."

 

No, you are not correct. I have no problem with kids having off for Christmas, but if they are not Christian, they should be able to have off for their own religious holidays, too. Excused, without having to make up whatever work was done that day. It would be nice if schools were actually closed for other holidays like they are for the Christian ones, but I realize that would seriously cut into school time, and is unrealistic.

 

What I would like is for my kids not to have off for minor Christian holidays, like Good Friday.

 

And I'd also like for Christians, who do represent an obvious majority in the country, to stop crying victim of discrimination when other minority religions try to ask for equal treatment.

 

I've heard a rumor that our council is planning to hold their Fall camporee on Yom Kippur, because no one on the committee planning it is Jewish, so obviously, it won't inconvenience ANYONE to hold it then. This year, Yom Kippur falls as the same time as the autumnal equinox, one of my holy days. So that's at least two religions whose holy days they are disregarding. Do you think that is right?

[GernBlansten]

Ed: Does your view that minors don't have civil rights extend to the unborn?