"homosexual behavior is automatically disqualifying,"

[Eamonn]

I like to think that I do follow the rules and guide lines set down by our organization. Admittedly, most of the time they don't adversely effect me.

Some have said that I might be guilty of just blindly following the rules.

I'm not and never have been very comfortable talking about sex.

When it came to Scouting, it was a subject I was very happy to avoid.

I think I was happy to hide behind the idea of leaving this to parents and clergy. I say hide behind, because in a lot of cases youth members were not active in a church and sex was something that kids didn't talk to their parents about.

As a young Lad,I don't think any of the priests in my church would have been of much help to me and in our Irish Catholic home sex was never discussed.

While I am a happily married heterosexual,I know that it was in the Boy Scouts I first found out about the "Birds and the bees". Many of the activities that went on after lights out, were very un-scout-like. While I have always looked upon them as part of growing up and have as an adult leader never got involved. (Boys comparing penis size and that sort of thing.)I suppose these could be viewed as homosexual behavior. I am of course talking about boys of about the same age.

Now that I serve a coed unit of older youth members, they seem far more at ease talking about sex.

The other night before the start of the Ship's meeting, they were discussing the sex education lesson they had at school and how they felt the school not covering abortion was wrong!!

We have had Scouts (A male and female) dating and did have to come up with guidelines for what was and wasn't acceptable.

I'd be happy if Scouting were "A Sex Free Zone", in fact I try and make sure the Ship is!!

I do find it a little odd that the BSA choose to mention homosexuals and not point out that all youth members shouldn't be engaging in pre-martial sex.

As a parent I have talked to my son about sex and sexual responsibility. I think he understands? But when almost every TV show now seems to have nothing but sex and bedroom scenes and causal sex seems to be acceptable, I can't help thinking that he thinks I'm lost in the dark ages.

While I'm for our schools teaching sex education and family planning, I do think we in the BSA do need to take a firm stand on teaching abstinence from sex both homosexual and heterosexual for all of our youth members.

Eamonn.

[SR540Beaver]

Why is it I can't seem to mind my own business and stay out of some of these conversations. Eamonn pondered why homosexuality was singled out and hetero was excluded in the BSA statement. Others have questioned why one is an abomination and the other is not. Understand, I'm just throwing this out for discussions sake and not taking a stand one way or the other. There are those who will say that sin is sin in God's eyes. To God, it does not matter whether you tell a little white lie or murder someone. God can not look on sin and there is no "degree" where He is concerned. For men, degree is involved. For men, obviously telling a lie is a bad thing, but murdering someone is much worse. Using somewhat similar logic, heterosexuality is natural/normal/moral and homsexuality is unnatural/abnormal/immoral. Promiscuity is wrong either way, but one is "less" bad than the other. just a thought.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I deal with droves of kids that are leaving high school. The goal that I share with them is employment and training for employment. Sexuality is a must subject or one might wind up with child or worse with a disease that is not compatible with the work environment. On more than one occasion, young females beginning their training for employment have attended an after hours party, met a stranger across a crowded room and the rest is up to you to figure out because I have usually been stumped. Young people and parents that hardly have the money for their son or daughter to attend school are then faced with hospital bills and the right to obtain an entry level job with minimum wage. Most do not have health insurance or a bank account. Generally, the stranger in their life is gone or in worse financial or physical shape than they are so as to add an extra burden. It is not always this bad but when it happens, it is never pretty.

 

When I speak about sexuality, I find that several have already made inroads but seldom without a reality check. Many young people may not believe what they are hearing. Few watch the news, so rumor and intuition tends to fill in the blanks for them. I would encourage adults/parents to speak frankly about sexuality. I find the alternatives to be less than desirable.

 

I really wish it were as simple as getting good training for a job, getting a good job, getting a good husband or wife and settling down to have good children in a good home. Until that prayer is answered, we may be better prepared by communicating effectively with each other. fb

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[packsaddle]

Fuzzy, what you wrote about the young females hits very close to home for me. Something with which I have wrestled for several years now.

As for the boys, I find that it is safer if I follow their conversations and when I hear a statement that gives me the opening, I either challenge a misconception or else I offer that they may have missed a few important things. Most of the time this stimulates questions and as long as they ask the questions, it is fair enough to answer them, always telling them that their parents have the final word. However, those answers must be accurate and there are plenty of adult leaders who could use a little instruction as well, I have observed.

This means using anatomically-correct terminology and clinically-correct descriptions of processes. Often, the boys decide they didn't really want to discuss this after all.

[John-in-KC]

I sometimes wonder what our parents had to deal with when they were Scouters and we were the Scouts.

 

I have to agree with Eamonn, I'd like to see Scout units be places of calm for young men and women struggling with relationships, lust, puppy love, and "rest of their lives" love.

 

Son is part of a 140 piece HS marching band, which splits into two 70 piece symphonic bands for the rest of the school year. I see waaayyy too many youngsters "doing the grope" even at school.

 

As far as the Eagle candidate which brought us here, well, Ed Mori, I'd have a huge hard time sitting an EBOR if he was a parent and unwed. Something about Loyalty, Helpful, and Brave...

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

I see a commonality in the examples of appeals to National that have resulted in National reversing the EBOR and awarding the rank. They common factor is that the initial EBOR denied rank based on measurements of subjective standards - things like Scout Spirit and Morally Straight. We measure these by our own experiences, our own beliefs, and our personal values, and they don't have a universally right or wrong answer (no matter how much some of us want to insist that they do) thus they are subjective. Objective measurements are those which have a right answer for everyone. Earn the proper number of merit badges? Objective measurement. Earn the required merit badges? Onjective measurement. Serve 6 months in a leadership position? Objective measurement. The objective measurements are easy. It's the subjective measurements that are problematic - ask 100 Scouters what Scout Spirit means and you'll get 100 different answers. Ask 100 Scouters what Morally Straight means in practice and you'll get 100 different answers. BSA doesn't define these beyond a nebulous explanation which gives them a lot of wiggle room for interpretation.

 

This past week, there was an article in my local paper about underage drinking - specifically high school students - and how parents of a rather affluent suburban area have no issues with their 16 year-old-plus children drinking provided they do it in moderation, and at home. Imagine an EBOR in this area with a Scout whom it has been mentioned has been seen drinking at parties in his home - in other areas of the country it would surely be considered a morally straight issue - yet here the lad would likely pass the EBOR.

 

I earned my Eagle through the appeals process because my chosen religion did not meet someone else's viewpoint and definition of what it means to be reverent and what it means to do ones duty to God. This was over 25 years ago - and there are still people sitting on EBOR's that would reject me because of my chosen religion.

 

I know that if I were to personally sit on an EBOR for an unwed father, I would not view that as a barrier to Eagle - It's certainly foolish and stupid, but my personal moral code doesn't see it as a greivous sin - and as I've stated, we look at things like morally straight through our own values. In the case of the pipe-bomb maker, I would look at intent - was it just a foolish, stupid thing the kid did that many kids before (and after him) did? I'd have no problem passing him. If the intent was to destroy property, then I'd consider that malicious and would not pass him. There was a case of a Scout who was suspended from school for having nails in his coat pocket from a service project - would I pass him? Yes (and curse the school board for their stupid pandering to the idiots out there demanding zero-tolerance policies). Would I pass a convicted drug dealer? That depends on what has happened since the conviction - I wouldn't automatically say no if it was something the kid did when he was 14 or 15 and he's turned his life completely around. Would homosexual behavior automatically disqualify a boy from Eagle? The answer is a resounding no - I've caught a few scouts experimenting in their tents at night with their buddies - clearly acts of homosexual behavior - I wouldn't hold it against them when they were 16 and going for Eagle because experimentation is, frankly, a normal part of growing up. I'm not about to tell a couple of 12 year old boys that because they were caught experimenting in a tent, they can never get their Eagle rank. As for someone coming to the board with a claim that the lad is gay, he'd better have absolute proof - and even if the lad states he is gay, it still wouldn't be a barrier to Eagle in my viewpoint mostly because the BSA has come out and said these standards of "avowed" homosexuals apply to adult leaders and have specifically stated numerous times in press interviews on the controversy that it doesn't apply to the Scouts.

 

This doesn't mean the EBOR should just automatically pass a Scout because they know that National will just overturn them anyway - in some cases, denying rank, even if the rank is eventually awarded, sends a message to the Scout to keep on the correct path.

 

CalicoPenn

[Fuzzy Bear]

Pack,

It is too bad that the boys would rather get it off the wall because it will leave them short on reliable knowledge.

 

Many times in working with young people, we find ourselves on a path without a map. If we don't have time to consult the Forum or have the advantage of having a group of former leaders to give us counsel, then we are left to prayer. It doesn't mean that we are on our own either but generally the "still small voice" is just not loud enough.

Having saved up a good supply of patience and loving kindness is just about as good as we can do. When we do make the wrong decision, it sometimes takes us to places we couldn't have gone otherwise.

 

We must always remember, WWLSD? (*Lem Siddons)

 

fb

[packsaddle]

Fuzzy, I agree. That for sure is a problem for many young people. The ones who grow up in this community are in pretty good shape when it comes to the facts - I think because of the local community and the good classes in local public schools. But many college students I have had in the past coming from the rural (sometimes the urban) South have had rude awakenings in my classes when the topic is human reproduction.

 

Heh, heh, some of my fondest memories are each semester showing some very stark and clinical videos of the different types of childbirth - the real deal (borrowed from a med school), you know...vaginal with forceps, vaginal without, breech birth, etc., every permutation you can think of. Full color and full sound. Where they had been cracking jokes regarding condoms and such, the class now sits in stunned silence. I and the other instructors take bets on how many will make it to the hallway before they faint. Delivering the placenta and examining it for condition, that really gets them...what are they thinking, that we just disconnect the hose? Gotta love it! Sometimes it just is more fun than anyone should have!

I wonder sometimes if I may have contributed more to prevention of unwanted pregnancies than any of the local ministers preaching fire and brimstone. At least after those classes the students knew what really WAS going to happen to them, the young women at least.

[tominrichmond]

From BSA website:

 

Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed.

 

Couldn't be clearer. And makes absolute practical sense. We wouldn't think of putting opposite sex heterosexual scouts in close proximity (as a matter of fact, most councils/districts/units have regs to this effect) such as same-tent camping or bathing-- why in the world would we admit homosexual boys or leaders into a situation ripe for acting out on homosexual inclinations?

 

Moreover, a line has to be drawn somewhere. If we suddenly decide that, despite 6,000 years of Judeo-Christian belief, homosexuality is OK or just another viable lifestyle option, then what's next? Bigamy? Pederasty? (take note of that one, scouters); bestiality? ONce you throw out the idea of fundamental sexual or moral norms, anything goes as a matter of principle.

 

Hope the BSA sticks to their guns on this one.

[DanKroh]

Wow, tominrichmond, you really hit the motherload of being offensive to homosexuals here:

 

"Moreover, a line has to be drawn somewhere. If we suddenly decide that, despite 6,000 years of Judeo-Christian belief, homosexuality is OK or just another viable lifestyle option, then what's next? Bigamy? Pederasty? (take note of that one, scouters); bestiality?"

 

Homosexual is NOT comparable to pederasty or bestiality. And the only bigamists I've heard of are heterosexuals.

 

How offensive would you find it if I said that we have to draw a line because if we accept Judeo-Christian traditions (as represented in the Bible), then what's next? Slavery? Filicide? (take note of that one, scouters) Genocide?

 

Rather than rehashing the problem with the whole "slippery slope" argument, I would instead refer you to these threads where it has been discussed (ad nauseum) in the past:

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=139512#id_139601

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=133994#id_134358

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=143219#id_143297

 

(Edited to add: BTW, I by no means believe that modern Judaism or Christianity advocates any of those things)(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[Lisabob]

This business of the young man who is a teen father and living with the mother in her parents' house is bothering me I have to admit. Although I can understand why some have claimed that the whole notion of a 17 year old (or younger?) unwed parent being awarded the Eagle rank is uncomfortable (unacceptable even?), there are also other considerations to be found in the scout law itself. Is it brave to acknowledge, at age 17 (or younger) that you have become a parent? Is it not both brave and loyal to not only acknowledge such, but also to take responsibility for one's new role by deciding to live under the same roof as the mother and the child, rather than leaving them to their own resources? Isn't it brave, loyal, clean, reverent, and even trustworthy to actively support the young woman involved in her decision to have and keep the child, rather than demanding that she seek an abortion or else give the child up for adoption? ("not my problem") Is it perhaps even brave to recognize that, whatever we may say about the acts that resulted in pregnancy, that at 17 one might not be ready for marriage? (yes I know some will say that if you're not ready for marriage then you shouldn't be sexually active either. I understand that perspective. But reality being what it is, these things DO happen and maybe marriage isn't always the answer.)

 

I don't know whether I'd agree that the scout in question lives up to the requirements and expectations of an eagle scout. But I can imagine at least some conditions under which I might say that he does.

 

As for Eamonn's original post - as the mom of a 12 year old, yes I would like to see scouting be a safe zone where sexual behavior of any sort isn't a part of things. But I also hope that we care enough for the boys in our troops (and also young women in our crews) that if one of them did find himself or herself in a position where such issues were in play, that we could give them honest and loving advice and support at times when they may need it most, rather than simply showing them the door.

[Eamonn]

I do have to respect the views of tominrichmond.

I do however think that what was once seen as being taboo can and does change.

I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, the church takes a fairly easy to understand stand on homosexual behavior. At least my understanding of it is easy for me.

20 Odd years ago Her Who Must Be Obeyed thought that we should live together for a while before we got married. I have to admit the idea didn't sit well with me. It went against what I thought was right and I didn't think it would be accepted by my family and friends.

Less than 10 years later my youngest sister moved in with a man. Together they had two really super kids, were together for about ten years and then decided to get married. My family were fine with the arrangement, both kids were baptized in the church.

I think in part due to the TV and the media I have become more accepting of homosexuality, I do and can see how people of the same sex can have deep feeling for each other. I don't understand the sex bit, but I don't have to.

When it comes to any sort of sex, I don't think that our youth members ought to be engaging in sex.

I think it makes little matter if they are trying gay sex or heterosexual sex.

Kind of like stealing. You ought not be stealing things.

Of course the consequences for having unprotected sex are never good.

I'm wondering how we might deal with a Scout who came up for an ESBOR and said that had contacted a STD from participating in unprotected sex?

In the Ship we have a Lad who everyone seems to think is gay. If there is a way of acting gay? He seems to act that way.

Thanks in part to the opinions from members of this forum. I decided that as a youth member he wasn't to be having sex (He is 17) and because he wasn't supposed to be sexually active, he couldn't be gay. Add to that he has never said that he is or he isn't.

I know I'm guilty of falling into the "Don't ask, don't tell" guide lines.

As a Ship we have (the Scouts) came up with a list of what was OK and what wasn't when it came to Open Signs of Affection. This list would work just as well with two Scouts of the same sex, as it does for two Scouts of opposite sexes.

We do have female adult leaders at all of our activities. So far and as far as we know boys and girls wanting to sneak away to do anything hasn't been a problem.

I don't think male leaders could do much if two Lads decided to do the sneaking!

What was that song by the Kinks??

Eamonn.

 

[local1400]

While personnally not approving of homosexuality, a friend of mine who I stayed in the same cabin with as camp staff members as an adult came out of the closet. I had no idea. But should he lose the Eagle he worked so hard for? I never got mine be "S" EARNED his. Who are we to judge? God knows I havent always lived morally straight, and I have aked for forgiveness. Has anyone ever made a bad choice that they regretted? Ever had a drink? Let he who is without....