Atheist leader to be expelled from BSA

[Bob White]

Merlyn and you're surprised that a lawyer, let alone a government lawyer wrote a meaningless clause:)

 

The purpose of it being there is that the military wants us to be lawfull in our actions and we are. So we meet their rules. That really bothers you doesn't it.

 

So you spoke to someone in Public Affairs and convinced them the clause meant non-discrimination and not lawfull discrimination if though it is plainly written. So What. If your interpretation was correct I would expect that the DOD will be booting scouting out of the bases any day now. Lets wait and see just when that happens.

 

Again I come back to what you expect from this group. Do you want us to over throw the Supreme Court or the military. Do you want us to rewrite the mission of scouting? We have no authority in any of those actions.

what steps have you taken that bring you any closer to your goal?

 

Bob White

[Rooster7]

Sorry, you just don't understand what "religious discrimination" means. Read some actual court decisions.

 

kwc57, if I was you, I'm wouldn't waste the time. Common sense should rule the day. Unfortunately, not everybody uses it, and sometimes even our courts fail to exercise it. Regardless of what a particular court may have said, a more judicious and intelligent court is apt to agree with your interpretation one day (if they don't already).

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

OK bob, I'm willing to wait for the outcome of the ACLU lawsuit; if you knew any constitutional law, you'd know that the military WILL be kicking out all BSA units.

[evmori]

kwc57,

Excellent point! Wish I would have thought of it. Take Rooster's advice. Common sense are two words Merlyn doesn't seem to know.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Seeing as how the CNFJ 5720.11F is only 4 1/2 years old I would think that if the illegality of the regulations were that obvious then then military would have realized it when THEY drew up the regulations. Remember this is the government's document. But I'm willing to accept whatever the decision of the court is...are you?

 

Bob White

[SR540Beaver]

Here is the agreement between BSA and the military that Merlyn keeps referring to:

 

http://www.cnfj.navy.mil/Admin/instructions/5720.11F%20Instruction.doc

 

Here is an interesting part of the agreement where the military spells out the responsibility of what FECBSA will do:

 

9. SCOUTING SERVICES.

 

9. 1. The FECBSA and the USAGSO-WP will:

 

9.1.1. Develop, guide, and maintain scouting services in all areas identified by the SOC within Japan and Korea.

 

9.1.2. Subscribe to the purpose, adhere to the policy, and be guided by the standards of the BSA and the GSUSA, as applicable.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

Rooster writes:

>>Sorry, you just don't understand what "religious discrimination" means. Read some actual court decisions.

 

>kwc57, if I was you, I'm wouldn't waste the time.

 

Yes, by all means, when addressing a dispute that concerns the US legal system, the best possible route is to purposely keep yourself ignorant of actual court decisions on the topic in question. "Be unprepared" would be a good motto to keep in mind.

[aneaglemom]

Well, guys, we can't debate this hostile agenda of a non-scout forever, huh?

Tonight, I'm going to a Scout meeting with my husband and son. I'll see 80 young boys who need and want guidence in this M&M/MTV world.

We'll say "Under God."

We'll plan our annual Turkey Cookout in the woods by the ocean. There will be 200 of us, with dozens of little guys coming along who want to be Scouts just like their big brothers.

The ACLU can't hurt us, Thank GOD. Money and Federal cash aren't what makes us tick.

Leslie

[red feather]

kwc7, good reasoning. Thank you.

 

aneaglemom. bon apetit (sp) have some for me.

 

merlyn, I may be simple but if there is no religion how can there be discrimanation against it? Not a lawyer or activist just somone trying to help scouts on their trail.

 

The rest of ya, the hard spot on the wall is stil hard, maybe time to move to a different spot.

 

BW, never did get the answer to your question did you?

 

YIS

[RobK]

I'd just like to make a point about the First Amendment. It says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Congress is forbidden from creating a state religion that all citizens must join, and Congress is forbidden from preventing you from following your religion. Congress cannot require you to follow a religion, nor can Congress require you not to follow a religion.

 

How does a military base chartering a Boy Scout troop require anyone to follow a religion? How does a military base chartering a Boy Scout troop prevent anyone from following their own religion or lack thereof? Membership in the troop is entirely voluntary. There is no punishment for not joining the troop. If kids were required to join the troop, then there would be a problem. Moreover, the troop is not the only youth organization allowed. If you wanted to start up Atheist Scouts of the World, with atheism as a requirement, and you had enough interest to get a troop up on the base, I'm sure you'd be allowed all the privileges that the BSA troop is allowed. I'm sure Campfire, et al. are welcome on military bases too. Further, to disallow an organization with religous requirements from operating under the auspices of the military base would be in violation of the "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part of the First Amendment.

(This message has been edited by RobK)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

RobK:

>How does a military base chartering a Boy Scout troop require anyone to follow a religion?

 

It isn't; but your previous paragraph didn't outline everything that the first amendment forbids.

 

For example, if the military tried to create a youth group that excluded Jews, that wouldn't violate anything in your opening paragraph, either. But it wouldn't be lawful.

 

...

>Moreover, the troop is not the only youth organization allowed.

 

Please note that now you're talking about something else entirely; "allowed" organizations are not the same as organizations run by the military itself. I've been talking about BSA units sponsored by the military.

 

>If you wanted to start up Atheist Scouts of the World, with atheism as a requirement,

 

...which is impossible, since WOSM will only allow one Scout organization per country...

 

>...and you had enough interest to get a troop up on the base, I'm sure you'd be allowed all the privileges that the BSA troop is allowed.

 

It would also be unlawful for the military to sponsor a youth group that only allowed atheists.

 

>Further, to disallow an organization with religous requirements from operating under the auspices of the military base would be in violation of the "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part of the First Amendment.

 

Only if the military welcomes all outside organizations onto their bases, which they don't. Military bases aren't public forums.

[Rooster7]

Robk,

 

That was an excellent post. It was concise and well-reasoned post. Please do not bang your head against the wall when others fail to grasp the obvious.

 

[ASM7]

RobK

 

I like your idea of the Athiest Scouts of America. Merlyn's efforts would be better served by using his God given talents toward forming this organization. I'm sure young boys all over the country would knock down the doors of his organizational meeting to become members.

Let's see, how could we start out the meeting? With the pledge of allegience? No, it's got that part about one nation under God. And wait a minute. We couldn't use the name Athiest Scouts of America. America's motto is "In God We Trust". Of course we need an oath of some kind. Maybe, "On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to myself, because I only believe in me." And we need Chartering organizations, right. Well maybe the military bases or the schools will do it. I can see the parents lining up with their kids right now. I guess we can sign up kids when they come out of the Harry Potter movie. And don't go on any camping trips because the scouts would wonder how all of nature came to be. Keep them in the big cities where all they see is created by the almighty man/woman. This could really take off!

Doug

[SR540Beaver]

Merlyn,

 

The military base does not RUN the scouting program. They are the charter organization that sponsors it. While you are busy studying constitutional law, it might be helpful if you also studied how scouting is organized and ran. The charter organization does not run the program. They make provision for others to run it.

 

You never responed to my post pointing out that the agreement you are so taken with also states that the military entity expects the FECBSA to operate the scouting program based on the BSA policies and procedures which includes excluding atheist. Whatever the public affiars office told you, they told you based on the one segment you wished to wrap everything else around and make an issue. You are ignoring other pieces of the document. Remember, this is the governments document that the BSA had to sign, not the other way around. The government says that FECBSA must administer the BSA program.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

kwc57:

>The military base does not RUN the scouting program. They are the charter organization that sponsors it.

 

According to the BSA, the chartering organization selects the leadership of the unit, and can replace them any time. I'd call that running the unit; they're completely in charge of who runs it (except they can't choose an atheist, of course).

 

>You never responed to my post pointing out that the agreement you are so taken with also states that the military entity expects the FECBSA to operate the scouting program based on the BSA policies and procedures which includes excluding atheist.

 

Unlawful clauses of contracts aren't enforcable; the military could sign an agreement with an organization to run a "no Jews" youth group, and that wouldn't make it legal, either.

 

You'll just have to learn your civics lesson the hard way.