A Test Of Morality

[OldGreyEagle]

One of the Asst Scoutmasters in our Council is living with his girlfriend. He and she seem to be very nice, but a scout recently asked me why they dont get married, and whether or not its OK for them to live together and still be in scouts, Responses?

[eisely]

This is a tough one. It is hard to claim that we are trying to set positive examples, and tolerate bad examples among the adult leadership. People living together as unmarried couples is a widespread practice today. You'd have to be blind not to notice. I might be inclined to have a private conversation with the adult leader involved to learn more about what is going on. One question that comes to mind, is how did the scout become aware of the adult leader's living arrangements in the first place? Unless there are children involved, it would be unusual for scouts to learn of such situations.

[jmcquillan]

Back in the dark ages, when Scouting first appeared on the planet, the practice you've referred to was something that only "bad" people did. Religion was probably far more a part of most peoples lives then than it is now, and those people lived by the word...whatever word it was that was that part of their particular religion. Times change.

 

The practice today is everywhere. In fact, many people live by the adage now that there's no reason to get married until you've lived with the other for some time "just to be sure". It's something we take for granted. And I'm sure that if asked, the parents of some of the kids in your troop would admit to having done the same before marriage. It's hard to find a whole lot of couples that haven't participated in something like that along the way. Times change. In the dark ages, see above, even when "we" were kids, folks who did those things were shunned. Not so today.

 

And how do we prevent, or attempt to prevent the kids from seeing this, or knowing about it? You can't really. Especially if Mom & Dad aren't the kind of folks who try to shield their sons from the same. And how do they do that?...keep the kids in their rooms with the windows closed and no TV? That's about the only way.

 

I'm not suggesting that it's a good practice, but nor will I condemn it. If society as a whole, being far larger than the BSA, accepts it and makes no effort to hide it or change it, there's little that the BSA and the volunteer leaders can do either. But if a boy were to ask me, I'd likely tell him that the subject is one that everyone has a different opinion on, and they would be best served by asking Mom & Dad when they get home.

 

[sst3rd]

I've been waiting for this to happen in our Troop. I was aware of two Scout leaders (one male, the other female), who have gone through divorces several years ago. We're all great friends, but they've been dating for over a year. Last month at summer camp, the female leader prefers who own tent to the camps big canvas ones, so her friend puts hers up. I realized that they were going to sleep in the tent together. After I verified that this was going to happen, I clearly stated the possible problems. If a Scout brought it up, it becomes a problem, and they would have to have separate quarters. They didn't agree or disagree. If it becomes a problem, I'll simply loose two very dedicated Scout leaders. I would have preferred that they not put me in this situation to begin with.

[jmcquillan]

Then you might want to put the problem to them in those terms. Try not getting into the legalities and rules and such. Gently tell them that their friendship means a lot to you and the other adults leaders in the troop. Tell them how you feel about their efforts and dedication. Keep it all positive. And then, remind them the the BSA does have rules about unmarried couples sharing sleeping quarters and you would truly appreciate it if they would not place you and the other leaders in an uncomfortable position in this regard.

 

If their take on how you and the others feel is still blinded by their own hormones and feelings for each other, and they can't abide by the logic of the BSA rules, then you may have to part. But it would be their own choice not to play by the rules....rules of a game that they supposedly hold dear enough to teach kids about. Why would they not play by the rules themselves?

 

[Mike Long]

If the rules and policies of the BSA does not address a particular moral issue I deferr to the rules and policies of the Chartering Organization.

 

When I was a Scout my troop was chartered to a U.S. Navy Base. If BSA didn't have a policy we defaulted to the code of military conduct (which covered both active duty personell and their dependents)

 

Now the troop I am now involved with is chartered to a Methodist Church and the same things applies. If the BSA doesn't have a policy then we default to Church doctrine. (although I put more weight on the Church's wishes than the BSA's.)

 

For those of you who don't have a chartering organization that has clearly defined what is considered right and wrong you need to get with your Charter Rep. and discuss the issues that concern both of you. If necessary then write up a set of bylaws that you can both agree to and abide by.

 

As for the initial question I guess I'll be the fist to go in harms way with a solid answer.

 

In my opinion. (for what it is worth.) No it is not OK. Every single thing we do and say (and especially when the two don't jive.) teaches these kids a lesson about how we should act. The person you mentioned is teaching through his example that is is OK to shack up, sex outside of marrage is acceptable and the marrage itself is not necessary for a positive and healthy relationship between a man and a woman. Really folks, kids today have fighteningly mature preceptions. Do you honestly think they will believe that that couple are just roommates, is rent really high in your area?

Last I heard morality is not a creature of convience but our society is.

 

Yet this is a free country and it is not illegal to live with your boyfriend or girlfriend. My opinion only matters in my home and when I go to vote so I will have to say that my answer to that Scout would be exactly the same as jmcquillan's last sentance, discuss it with Mom, Dad and (hopefully) your priest.

 

[eisely]

I like Mike's answer. On point as always. Since most troops are chartered to churches of one kind or another, that is a good starting point. Then again, a lot churches are confused, or least the leadership is confused, about what their key beliefs really are. Nevertheless, I am not aware of any denomination that would consider sex outside of marriage to be other than a sin. People may not want to admit that, but that is a fact.

 

A wise old Irish priest pointed out to me years ago that the ten commandments have been reframed to the ten suggestions in most people's minds. I am not a puritan or a prude, and I am not a saint, but I get really uncomfortable with the examples some adults set. Some kind of private discussion with the adult leaders involved, as suggested above, would seem to be in order.

[Mike Long]

I would like to make one addendum to my post.

 

I do feel that it is completely inappropiate for a Scouter to color a Scout's preceptions negativly of another Scouter.

"A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout." -BP. We may not agree with our brothers actions, views or lifestyle but we love them just the same.

 

If the issue is truly a major concern then it should be addressed between adults and never with children, but I think we are all aware of that point.

[I B a Scout]

This is great, I have never seen anything like this, you guys really go after each other and the topic, I luv it!

 

So, I am not sure I understand all the things you guys talked about. Is it ok or not for the two to live together and have the guy be in scouts, yes or no?

[EagleWB]

This is a tough question for the boys. As far as living together I would try to explain it to the boys. But, I agree whith Jmcquillan, the Boy Scouts have a clear policy on non married male and females shareing a tent together. It states that only married couples can share the same tent. I would have to insist that this policy be followed at any campout. If you loose these adults it is their decission. It may be a great loss but the rules should be followed.

[andrews]

One dangerous idea I saw early in this thread (it just came to my attention) is the idea that if it is ok in society it should be ok in Scouts. That is very dangerous, and if truly followed would make the Scout Oath and Law meaningless, subject to every whim of society.

 

Certainly our views of some things may change, but backing off and claiming that hard and fast views were only held "in the dark ages" is very dangerous.

 

Unfortunately, I see it a great deal in our society, and also in Scouts.

 

On this topic, it should be noted that "shacking up" makes it more likely you will get divorced down the line, hardly a good thing to put in front of boys. (Though they almost certainly have it in front of them one way or another.)

 

Brad

[I B a Scout]

So, should the guy be in Boy Scouts or not???

[Rooster7]

Personally, I'd say no. Realistically, I think I'm in a very small minority (even most of my family would probably disagree with me). Few Troops would say or do much about it unless these folks were sharing a tent on camping trips. Most will probably say - "As long as he is not advertising/promoting it", he should be allowed to continue in the Troop as a leader.

[I B a Scout]

Thank you Mr Rooster, you gave me a straight answer, I wasnt sure anybody would do that. I had thought all the guys here spoke straight, I guess thats harder than I thought

[Mike Long]

I did give a straight answer.

No.

 

But I am not making the rules.