Den Leader lied

[WestCoastScouter]

A local den leader was found out to have lied on his second son's registration form by claiming on the form that his son was in first grade, when in fact boy was in Kindsrgarten (and age 6).

 

This den leader is on his second pack, after issues with a prior pack which included rude and confrontational behavior, and rude comments about others. It is believedhe did this so his sons would be closer in age in the pack....( not having to have his second son have to wait)

 

What can and should be done?

[moosetracker]

Time wise. Being at the end of the school year, your normally at the end of a rank when all boys move up a rank..

 

So did he just sign this boy up in a spring recruitment to be a tiger next year? Or has he spent one full year as a tiger while in kindergarden.. Now you find out he will be in first grade this coming Fall?

 

If he just signed up and will be in Kindergarden next year, don't accept the application.. Nicely but firmly state the son will have to wait until he is in first grade.

 

If he just completed Tigers is moving into wolf but is only going into first grade?.. this is a little hazey, but I would think he may have to repeat his Tiger year, and hope that the next years Tiger leader does things differently then the first so he is not bored..

(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Jeffrey H]

I would tell him that his son is not yet eligible for Cub Scouts. Thanks for applying and we look forward to seeing him next year. Don't make it personal and point out that he lied, just simply state the joining rules for Cub Scouts and leave it at that.

 

As for his confrontational behavior, I don't have an answer for you that may help since I have never had to deal with bad behavior behavior among adult leaders. I'm sure others will join in that have dealt with such experiences.

 

 

[BSA24]

Your den leader lied. Time to discuss with the CC and CM whether or not to go to the COR and ask that the leader be removed. You'll have to decide this yourselves.

 

As to what to do with the boy, I don't know. The youth is innocent and should not suffer for it, but clearly cannot meet later Webelos requirements that he be out of the 4th grade for 6 months or 10.5 yrs of age to get the AOL. Eventually this catches up with him, so someone should do something with him now that is constructive.

 

I have a problem with the Cub Scout advancement program overall. I think I prefer the way it worked a long time ago when I was a kid. It was simpler, less confusion about badges. You joined a den. The den was run by den leaders. You earned your little bobcat pin when you joined. You then worked on Wolf, Bear, and Lion at your own pace and arrow points for all three.

 

You could then earn your webelos badge (now called the arrow of light). There were no belt loops, no webelos pins, no sports and academics pins, no outdoor activity award, no summertime award, no progress toward ranks, no paw print with beads that fall off and go everywhere, no tiger badge that goes where the newer webelos badge was supposed to go. The uniform and badges were simple, and the boys all stayed together with their friends.

 

The dens were largely constructed around friendships and locality. So, you didn't worry about the school year ending or changing neckerchiefs, or any of that.

 

There were no crossover ceremonies, either. You just got your webelos badge and you were done. I remember getting mine and wearing it on my uniform for a long time before I went to a Boy Scout troop.

 

I'm not sure what the motivation is for having a complex program of badges for cubs. The boys cannot comprehend it. They have no idea what to earn next.

 

I'd like to see dens formed in 1st grade, and then boys work on wolf, bear, and lion - finally the AOL/Webelos badge at their own pace however they like until they are old enough to join the boy scouts.

 

Probably the joining age for boy scouts should roll back to 9 years old to 14 as keeping 16 year olds and older around doesn't happen so much any more as they have "the fumes." Also, kids today are a lot less innocent than we were back in the 1960's.

[blw2]

That all sounds pretty good to me, BSA24!

[WestCoastScouter]

For clarification to one of the posts. The boy just completed his "Tiger" year in kindergarten. Would be potentially starting wolves as a first grader.

 

??? Greater issue, and what I invite comment on is more as what to do with the father who intentionally lied.

 

I agree that the boy should do tiger again with boys his own age.

[ScoutNut]

Personally, I would find a new den leader.

[ScoutNut]

Was the dad the Tiger's den leader?

 

Interesting that none of the other Tigers mentioned that this boy was not in their class.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Nothing complex about the Cub badge program at all.

 

There are age appropriate rank awards, and electives, that the boys can earn at each Cub level.

 

There are also supplemental award programs that the boys can do to introduce them to other things.

 

All awards, of any kind, are optional.

 

Dens are still run by den leaders. The boys are not required to figure out what to earn next. However, in many cases they can choose what they do based on what interests them.

 

Innocence and maturity are two entirely different things. A 9 year old is not mature enough for the Boy Scout program.

 

Nothing wrong with "fumes". The more successful Boy Scout programs I know make room for both Scouting and "fumes".

 

[SeattlePioneer]

I take it that the Den Leader had issues with his earlier pack but has done a satisfactory job in his current pack.

 

Did the boy do acceptably well in his Tiger Cub year?

 

If so, I'd be inclined to ignore the issue, keep the Den Leader and let the boy advance with his den.

 

Don't make a problem where one doesn't exist is the approach I'd use.

 

If the Den Leader's behavior has been an issue or the boy is clearly in a Wolf Den, then you have another issue to consider.

 

 

[Lisabob]

WestCoastScouter, just for background: what is your position in this? Are you the cubmaster or committee chair? Do you have a boy in this den?

 

What to do:

I believe that there are two ways of qualifying for membership in cub scouts - by age OR grade. While most non-LDS packs tend to use grade-level, there is room for flexibility here. If he meets the age criteria (but not the grade level), then let it be and allow him to continue on to wolves next year. No different, really, than a boy who is held back in school but advances with his den (which happens more often than you might think). Not a big hairy deal right now.

 

The bigger deal is why the dad/DL felt like it was a good idea to lie about it. If he's been doing an ok job and the pack committee and CM are happy with him then this might be a matter of a friendly conversation over the proverbial cup of coffee. If he's been a disaster as a Den Leader, then the CM and CC might want to take a different approach.

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

I don't like it one bit, but I don't see how anything can be done at this point in regards to the scout. Now the DL is a different story.

 

Sounds like the Cub is in the same boat as middle son, i.e. late birthdays. As muchas I hated for my son to wait a year to join cubs, that's the rule, there is a very good reason for it, and I'm following it.

 

That said,I was put into a similar situation. I discovered that the two "twins" in my den were not actual twins but two years apart when I started doing internet advancement earlier this year. Long story short, the CM at the time allowed them to join as Tigers, putting the oldest who should have been a Wolf in a den with little brother who should not have been in Cub Scouts. It was 2.5 years into the program.

 

As to why didn't the scouts mention not seeing him in school, etc, I know in my neck of the woods, the pack recruits from multiple schools. So some folks only see each other at scouts.

[kari_cardi]

The CM or the CC should double-check his birthday to see if he will be able to crossover with his Webelos den to Boy Scouts. If no, then they have a good solid reason to have the scout repeat a year, which IMO is better to do with Tigers or Wolf rather than the other ranks, for a variety of reasons. I would not suggest dropping out for a year. And if his age at crossover isn't a problem, I would let the scout continue on through the program.

 

Motivation does play a role in how I would view what the DL did. I'm not a fan of lying, but if he did it with the advice of more experienced scouters or didn't think it mattered, I'd not be as concerned. If he did it because *he* knows better, then I'd have to consider the action in the context of his current behavior as the CC of the pack. A conversation between the DL and the CM or the CC would seem to be in order here.

[SeattlePioneer]

I've seen parents who were HIGHLY motivated to have their boys join Cub Scouts while he was in Kindergarten. And VERY disappointed to be told no.

 

In one case, the very disappointed parent called a recently appointed District Executive, who said it was OK. THAT wasn't easy to correct.

 

No doubt there are some Kindergarten children who would do fine in Tiger Cubs, but then again some who think they would do fine wont. I think the age limit there is a good one, but I would create a big stink after the fact unless there were actual problems that needed to be dealt with. I wouldn't borrow trouble.

[cubtrails]

We've had similar things happen in our pack - and it's really annoying and disappointing. There seems to be a mentality that lying only really matters for big things. And it's rarely worth a huge confrontation over something small.

 

I don't know if it's always been that way, or if I'm just getting older and noticing it more, but either way it's annoying.

 

OK, I'll get off my soap box now...