Making Eagle Projects the culmination of a learning sequence

[JMHawkins]

A question occurred to me while replying to the thread about how many hours are in a typical Eagle project. As I understand it, the goals of the Eagle project are for the Scout to demonstrate leadership, organization, and service. Other's have mentioned that an Eagle project was not always a requirement, and here I have to say I think this is a place where BSA has improved the advancement process by adding one. I think running a project of some scope is an excellent experience for a Scout.

 

But I'm also reminded of Beavah's discussion about cooking skills in T-2-1. He observed that cooking a meal once didn't lead to mastery, that what we really needed was to give the Scout several opportunities to gradually grow his cooking skills, watching and helping at first, then doing it himself a time or two, learning from it, and finally showing that he really knows how to plan and cook an outdoor meal. Now, despite concerns about how it's interpreted or administered, the T-2-1 requirements are laid out in a progression of cooking skills. Tenderfoot requires helping with a meal. 2nd Class requires planning and cooking a meal. First Class requires planning and cooking an entire campout's worth of meals.

 

There's no such progression of skills building up to the Eagle Project. Star and Life need to have participated in a fairly low number of service project hours, and serving in PORs (though not necessarily leadership positions) is required, but there's no map of progressive skills the way there is with T-2-1 cooking. Maybe there should be.

 

I would like to see Star require participating in a service project of some significance and also planning (but not necessarily executing - consider it a dry run) a small service project, Life require planning and leading a small project or two, and finally Eagle requires (as today) planning and leading a large project.

 

Maybe I'll send that in to the program resource email bnelon44 posted.

 

 

[bnelon44]

>Maybe I'll send that in to the program resource email bnelon44 posted.

 

That would be the right place to send it. It is definately and specifically not in the Star and Life requirements now.

[Lisabob]

If the current personal management MB is still to be required and unaltered, then I think it ought to be a required badge for Star or Life rank.

 

It was the final badge my son had to do and the very last hurdle between him and completion of Eagle requirements (besides SM conf. and BOR). He got to the end of it and came running down the stairs laughing hysterically...I'm wondering, has he cracked? No: he'd just read the requirement about planning a "pretend" project! After he'd just finished his actual Eagle project! What's the use in that?! (I just smiled and shrugged.)

 

[desertrat77]

Though I'm sure the suggestions are made with good intentions, I'd like to respectfully offer an opposing one.

 

The requirements for Eagle already have too much homework. With each passing year, there is more and more red tape, that frankly does nothing but satisfy the adults who oversee the program at National, and levels below.

 

Adding a "capstone" experience that ties stuff from Star and Life, and you'll have more last-minute Eagles who've put off the pain till they had to tackle it.

 

Or, you'll have a bunch of book-saavy scouts making Eagle, and the ones that prefer to be in the outdoors, actually doing things, that would be good Eagles in their own right, may tend to shy away from extra book work.

 

That said, I'm not in favor of "giving" Eagle away. It should be difficult to earn. But the red tape does little to actually encourage scouts to pursue Eagle. Indeed, much of the red tape already there needs to be cut (the silly citizenship series MBs, etc.)(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[moosetracker]

If you allow the boys more responsibility with planning their own events, including calling places for prices and best seasons to go, organizing who is going, the collecting of the money, transportation etc.. I think the boys will have plenty of small projects under their belts before tackling the Eagle project.

[JMHawkins]

Desertrat

 

Though I'm sure the suggestions are made with good intentions,

 

What would make you think that?

 

And no, I certainly wouldn't want to add more pure bookwork. But then I don't think the Eagle project should have a ton of bookwork either. A schedule, bill of materials, duty roster, and some sort of status tracking for the schedule, not sure that much more than that is really needed. In my view, the paperwork, such as there is, should exist only to support and guide the actual work. It should be pretty minimal, because every hour put into paperwork is an hour not put into making progress on the project.

 

Curious, you characterize needing to lead a small service project as a Life scout as "red tape" on the way to Eagle. Do you considier the 2nd Class requirement to plan and cook one meal to be "red tape" on the way to First Class, where the scout has to plan and cook meals for an entire trip?

 

Moosetracker

 

If you allow the boys more responsibility with planning their own events, including calling places for prices and best seasons to go, organizing who is going, the collecting of the money, transportation etc.. I think the boys will have plenty of small projects under their belts before tackling the Eagle project.

 

I definitely agree. But that's not reflected in any of the formal advancement requirements. Even the PORs don't have to be ones that should involve leadership and planning (I'd love to have a Troop Bugler, and I think it could be a great learning experience for the scout who held it, but I don't think it would give him much leadership experience).

 

Honestly, if it was entirely up to me, Life would require the Scout to complete a 50-miler of some sort, and Eagle would require him to plan and lead one (and only PL/APL/SPL/ASPL/TG would count for PORs). But I don't think that would have any chance at all with National. Adding some service project leadership requirements might though, and might make the Eagle project itself a more meaningful accomplishment.

[moosetracker]

I know troop service projects always dependend in our troop. If we had no or one Eagle project forseen that year, we would do one or two troop service project (perhaps some impromptu while camping somewhere, and finding a need. Which doesn't require pre-planning just doing) But, if we had a lot of Life scouts and forsaw alot of Eagle projects troop service projects would be tabled..

 

Scouting is not DeMolay, scouting is not all about fundraising or service projects. DeMolay is not a very popular youth program due to there not being much else.. You really have to make sure there is a good balance, so that the scouts get to feel good about the service projects they do, but are not feeling that is ALL that scouting is about.. The main focus must still be in the outings, too many service projects and fundraisers will pull away from that focus, as there is only so much time the boy will devote to scouting.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[desertrat77]

JM, given the state of adult oversight of advancement today, yes, I'd consider the Life project to be red tape.

 

Because it won't be the straightforward concept you mention. Like the Eagle project of today, there will be a bunch of adult nit-picking and "oversight."

 

Scouting got along just fine for decades without an Eagle project. Then it became a requirement. And with each passing year, it becomes more and more of a paperwork drill.

 

Scouting wasn't designed to be that way. The scouts get enough busy work and chores in town. Scouting should be that one activity where they can't wait to rush out the door and go boating, hiking, camping. Sure, pursue some badges if the spirit so moves. But if they don't, so what? The experiences and spirit of scouting they pick up along the way is far more important than any badge.

 

LOL, I don't consider cooking red tape. Anything the scout does in the outdoors, that challenges him mentally and physically, isn't red tape.

 

Anything that makes him spend more time sitting at the picnic bench, filling out forms, than in the outdoors, is red tape to me. He'll get a full heapin' helping of that during his Eagle project.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[JMHawkins]

I see your points and don't really disagree. Like I said, if it was entirely up to me, a scout's "Eagle project" would be leading a venture patrol on a 50-miler, no-resupply trek of some sort. I'd be thrilled if National showed interest in going that direction, but I'm doubtful at the moment they would. So, trying to work within the bounds Irving might be interested in listening to, I'd still like to "fix" advanceent so that the first real leadership challenge required of a scout isn't this big, elaborate, to-do of an Eagle project. Sure, programs where the adults get it will make sure the scouts have lots of opportunities to practice during their normal outdoor adventures. But part of helping new adults, those who don't have experience with real patrol method stuff and tend to follow Advancement requirements like a checklist, is to sync the requirements with what we want from the program.

 

I wouldn't add more service project hours (I'm not a big fan of counting hours anyway, seems more important to evaluate the quality and spirit of the service rather than the time), but just require some portion of the hours already required be done either experiencing a project requiring coordination and leadership (Star), or leading a small project (Life).

 

Like the Eagle project of today, there will be a bunch of adult nit-picking and "oversight."

 

You may be right about this. In the Webelos III troops where Dad does his son's Eagle project already, certainly you are right about it. Not much we can really do for those units anyway, other than coaching the more receptive leaders towards a different model. OTOH, if the Life Project is a small project, maybe it'll be easier for the well-meaning adults to back off and let the scout struggle with it. And then he'll have a better chance at pulling off his Eagle project without Mom, Dad, and Scoutmaster Joe leaping in to salvage it.

 

And I definitely would not want any district or council folks thinking they needed to stick their noses into it.

 

Now, all that being said, there's nothing to prevent a wise SM from hinting to the PLC that a particular Star scout might be a good choice to organize a service project "so the new crossover guys can get their hour of Service Projects in for Tenderfoot" or some such. Maybe even coach the fellow on laying out a schedule, materials list and duty roster in a simple, straight forward manner.

[moosetracker]

If no Eagle project forseen, I can see a small service project.. Otherwise I still would prefer giving the Star and Life control of organizing a scouting even.. Example Let them take on the pinewood derby, making sure the sleds get needed repair, are outfitted for what should be on the sled, that the troop practices anything they know will be part of the competition.. Make sure there are enough Adults for two deep leadership, and enough drivers to get them there and back.. SPL can still be in charge of making sure the assigned scout does not drop the ball, and be there for advice..

 

It has no signs of an added service project, but all the skills involved... If you are in a troop with 3 Life scouts and 4 Star scouts, to add on practice run service projects for each that is 7 service projects that are bigger then an impromptu "just-do-it" add to that the 3 Eagle projects of the Life scouts and you have just got your troop roped into 10 service projects that have enough meat and time to it to give thes 7 scouts practice runs on top of actual Eagle projects..

 

Putting them in charge of organizing their own events also gives them practice time at skills needed.. But, in a way they are just having scouting fun, and feeling their troop is boy run and out having fun..

 

Change the program to get ScoutMasters to understand that having the boys organize their own events is part of boy-run.. Perhaps add something where at Star or Life requires the scout to head up at least one event for the troop.

 

It does not need to be labeled "Service Project" in order to gain the skills on how to lead a service project..

[desertrat77]

JM, that's much food for thought, will definitely mull it over. I especially like the idea of leading the venture patrol on a 50 miler...I think we'd be pleasantly surprised at the Eagle candidates' collective, positive response to that kind of challenge. Planning and executing a big trek in the outdoors...that's something most senior scouts could sink their teeth into.

 

Agreed, there may not be much appetite at National for such a change. Darn shame, because I think it would really spark some interest in scouting that just isn't here right now, internally and externally. And it's a truly Eagle-worthy kinda project.

[Eagledad]

I like this kind of thinking, but it can already be going in the present program.

 

I've said before the quality of the older scouts is a direct reflection of the rest of the program. We strive to make the troop program a progression of leadership experiences. I wasn't really sure how well it worked until I spoke with a Star transfer. His SM in another part of the state told me he was one of their best scouts. The scout told me he was very intimidated by our youth leadership because they were so far advanced from his old troop. Our district OA representative told us the reason the last three Lodge chiefs came from our troop was because they knew how plan activities and run meetings.

 

Our troop isn't special, we just made sure every position in the troop develop some kind of leadership skills. We never had a bugler, but if we did, we would identify some skills for him to practice. Typically a new scout starts out as a Grub Master or Cheer Master because those positions require just enough practice with planning, communication, and directing, for the maturity of a 10 year old. Patrol QM is the next step requiring a little more maturity and experience with the APL requiring a little experience.

 

Same goes with troop PLC positions. You can use scribes and historians as entry level positions stepping up to more responsibility with Quarter Master and ASPL. The TG, SPL, and JASM were our most mature positions, but each troop can design their own leadership progressions.

 

The hard part is identifying the skills the scouts should practice in each position, and stepping up the challenges as they get older and more experienced. If you do that through your whole troop program, you will have a culmination of learning experiences for the Eagle as well as senior leaders. And they didn't even know it because it was all part of a clever little scheme of learning while they did the fun scouting stuff.

 

A progressive learning program require a liitle work up front, but nothing near as hard as getting National to enhance the Eagle program.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry(This message has been edited by Eagledad)

[Horizon]

When my son did his project, his advisor required him to do two things:

 

1) His project plan had to be written so that if he died, another Scout could pick it up and complete it.

2) He had to have a wingman on his project - his XO. My son chose a friend Scout to be his XO, as training for when HE would do HIS project.

 

I started encouraging all of our Eagle candidates to have an XO on their project, and encouraged them to choose someone who was close to thinking about their project - thereby passing on the experience.

 

This has worked out pretty well so far - each Eagle candidate gets to help train another one on the project. They also learn a little more leadership this way (better delegation training).

 

As for Personal Management - that would be a great one to require for Life. Instead, I know that many MBCs accept the Eagle Project Plan as the project for that requirement.

[moosetracker]

Don't know what a XO is (to me it is kisses & hugs).. But the concept is a good one.

[qwazse]

I ended my carrier as a scout planning 50 miler after earning Eagle. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Not sure I would have wanted it as an advancement requirement.

 

My gut tells me that we have a cart-before-the-horse problem. One way to get boys doing more leadership-type activities, is to help them get Eagle out of the way sooner. If more boys earn their birds by age 16 (has happened in the past), they would be free to accomplish a wider variety of service and leadership.