Inconsistancies and vagueness a blessing or curse?

[SSScout]

Once again, our friends at National have a hard time understanding the local angst.

 

The inconsistancy (6 essentials... 8 on the list)(appears Wolf can "handle" a knife, but Bear can "earn" the license) (WC worksheet, G2SS guidelines) means it is still up to us local folks to do right by our Scouts.

The Whitlin' Chip requirements are purposefully vague, I feel, just like the Totin' Chip requirements. It is up to us to interpret them as we are able to, by our local (personal) experience and skill.Someone in Irving TX cannot tell someone out in the hinterlands to be skillful and pass that skill along to the next generation.

'Way back when, I earned the Totin 'Chip. I did it by watching my dad handle tools, the older Scouts handle axes, reading the HBfB and Fieldbook (thank you, GBB) and reading Eric Sloane's excellent books about handtools carpentry and wood. See http://www.scribd.com/doc/9008546/Eric-Sloane-A-Reverence-for-Wood

 

The requirements for TC and WC do not specify "demonstrate THIS technique or skill" , only to demonstrate "safe handling".

When I teach IOLS Woods Tools, I find alot of interest in the sharpening, handling, use and care of the tools. Most men (and women) these days do not have the usual need to cut and chop and form things in wood. You go to Acme Hardware.

The traditional (and that is what it is, tradition) means of "demonstrating safe use" in this area is the Scout making a really good tent peg with a hatchet. (tent peg? What do you mean? Actual question from a Scout): Choice of wood/stick, not too big around or long. A sharp point, a purposeful shaped notch with "wings", a camfered top to prevent the splitting off of the notch, all these things are made by the use of the techniques I demonstrate (impact vs contact, patience, the physics of the lever arm, a sharp tool, choke up on the handle, eye direction, chopping block placement, plan ahead). But none of these things are or can be detailed in the badge requirements. Or should they?

 

WC is the same. And part of my TotinC instruction. If a BScout is skillful with his knife, what better instructor for a CScout? A Bear Den Chief can be the best WC instructor and , boy, how impressive is that, as to the worth of BScouting on a Cscout.

 

Setting up CSDC. The flagpoles need to be stepped. Life Scout ("yes, I have Totin' Chip") is handed a hatchet and asked to go out in the woods nearby and find some branches to make six stakes to help brace the poles. Watching him attempt to point the stakes, the Scouter is reminded how personal such skills are. It ain't the way the Scouter was taught. He and the Life Scout have a session and the LS says "gee, I didn't know you could do that".

 

Archery at CSDC. Due to the size of the camp, half the Den shoots on the line, half have a "sit down" activity, then the halves trade places. CSDC PD says that all boys will have earned the Archery Belt Loop by virtue of doing it safely all week. No problem there. And, she has designed sitdown activities so that when the week is up, EVERYONE will have earned the Archery Pin! Archery Range Master takes exception with this. Tigers do not have the skill, maturity or responsibility , he feels, to "earn" the pin. Usually only Bears and Webelos are offered the opportunity, and it is "optional" and "extra", even after camp hours. Wolfs, maybe, but not Tigers.

CSDC PD says, why not? There is nothing that says Tigers cannot earn the pin (true). Range Master says no, he will not certify any Tiger earning the pin.It is, the RM feels, a stretch to MAKE all Cubs "earn" the pin automatically. but the curriculum is there, the Scout assistants lead the "classes" and lo and behold, 200 Cubs (but not Tigers) earn the pin (to be awarded by the Pack).

 

So the vagueness is a good thing, if viewed correctly. It is, after all, still up to the local folks to pass the Scout and give him the badge.

But will he remember it some years later?(This message has been edited by SSScout)

[Brewmeister]

The range master can't say boo about it.

 

The Pack should simply go and award the pins if they believe the boy has earned it. There is no "signoff" required.

[Horizon]

I think that the NET effect is positive. Yes, we have situations where we get someone too strict to their interpretation of the terms that Scouting is hurt (the thread with multiple boys not earning Tenderfoot after 3 years). We also get those situations where we might have an Eagle who can't tie his shoes.

 

Those, however, are problems at the extreme. Leaving room in the writing for local interpretation makes it possible for adult leaders to make Scouting possible in different areas. For examples - If I told a boy to go chop 6 branches to make tent pegs - the Ranger would have me arrested and cited. In most of the forests around Southern California you can not gather wood, you can not burn anything on the ground, fire rings themselves are only available at group camp sites, and you certainly can not use your hatchet to remove branches.

 

If someone were to write that up as a requirement (and it SOUNDS good), then I would be forced to either never advance my Scouts or ignore the advancement requirements.

 

So keep the guidelines a little vague, with some wiggle room. Train your leaders (Scout and Scouter) on the Original Intent. Give examples of how to achieve teach certain skills in your area, e.g. we had a rack built onto the top of our Troop trailer to haul gardening poles so that we could have pioneering projects.

[5yearscouter]

Well since the Cub Scout Sports and Acadmics Pin for Archery can only be given out at a council camp, then yes, the Archery Rangemaster does get to "sign off" on the Tigers earning the pin.

 

I actually wish Day camp would "tighten up" on some of the stuff they say you earned. I'm still aaaarrrrrrggggghhhh about all the boys being told at cub scout day camp that they earned the weather belt loop and pin. First Req of weather belt loop = make a poster of the water cycle. I don't see that as a vague thing--but they define it as an adult makes a poster and at day camp the boys look at the poster and talk about the poster. Second Req = make a weather station to record the temperature, wind, etc for one week. So the camp staff has a weather station they've set up, they talk about it, they show the boys how to write the temperature and wind on a chart, that has been filled out by day camp for the last week (and the prior 3 weeks of day camp). But the boys didn't do any of the stuff for that. I didn't even look at req #3 at this point.

 

But the boys tell their parents, their parents say cool you'll get that at the pack meeting right? so the den leaders say sure. I get to go buy all these belt loops and pins and Iknow the boys didn't do the work the way it was intended....

[shortridge]

A lot of the angst could be solved by banning camps from working on requirements. Just the fun, please...

[mdlscouting]

The Whittling chip, and the right to use a pocketknife can be earned by Wolves. It just isn't part of their rank requirements.

[JMHawkins]

A lot of the angst could be solved by banning camps from working on requirements. Just the fun, please...

 

But, but, but... how do you measure fun on a JTE scorecard?

 

 

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

Are inconsistencies and vagueness a blessing or a curse?

 

Yes.

 

[lrsap]

5yearscouter,

 

I left Cubs behind a couple of years ago, and haven't taken a look at the Sports and Academics Guide in a long time. Basically, I'm saying I can be way off base.

 

But to me, just because you can only earn the loops and pins at a District or Council event does not mean you need a RM approval to say it is their standards that apply when saying a scout has earned a loop or pin. Now don't get me wrong, a good CM would heed the recommendations of a well-qualified RM. But unless an advancement form for these come with a requirement of an RM signature, it's not required.

 

Another thing I have a problem with is the thought that a Tiger can't earn a certain loop or pin. That is because they can be earned multiple times in a Cub's time. Do Your Best applies. It's not as if it were a Boy Scout requirement that you only get one shot at saying "He can do it". If they weren't meant to be able to be earned multiple times at progressing skill levels, then previously earned belt loops wouldn't be required to be earned again as a Webelos.

[Scoutfish]

If the RM decides to stick to his guns on the pin, I say it's his call.

 

May not be popular, but still his call.

 

But as far as the beltloop goes, it does not require a certain score or that the arrows even hit the target at all.

 

It is more about a scout showing how to hold and shoot the arrow, and understand archery safety.

 

THis is where the RM should back down and let the Tiger cubs cubs participate.

 

But having said that....the RM does not sign off on the beltloop or pins. The advancement/ awards chair can get them if he wants to wether the RM likes it or not.

 

 

[JMHawkins]

We had a similar discussion in our Pack a couple of years ago. Not about archery, but about awards in general. One particular den was handing out awards at a prodigious rate. Almost every event they did generated multiple awards of some sort for the cubs. And by "mulitple" I don't mean they would do different things and get an award for each, but rather they would do one thing and the DL would find multiple awards to hang off it. For example, doing archery for this Den would definitely be an archery belt loop plus a pin plus a segment for achery plus a segment for visiting a council camp plus a segment for getting a segment and maybe another segment for finding a place to sew the last segment onto the shirt...

 

It was a bit over the top. As Wolf cubs, they looked like El Generalissimo Presidente For Life of the People's Republic of Bannanama. The DL protested "but they like getting awards, and my parents like it too." A few of the "older" families suggested maybe she should save a few awards for later in their CS career so they could continue to get awards and enjoy it rather than burning them out with a wad o' cloth and hardware every meeting.

 

So...

 

Along those lines, go along with the RM. Consider what he's really saying. He isn't saying "Bahumbug! No Pins for your little brats!" Instead he's saying "bring those little ones back in a year or two when they will appreciate and understand more. They can have fun this year, and come back to earn the award next year."

 

Give them something to look forward too.

[5yearscouter]

Well around here, you won't get the belt loop award to give the scout unless you get the actual loop at the council day camp. So if the RM doesn't sign off on it, the HQ when passing out the belt loops won't give you one to give the boy. If that makes sense? You can't buy the archery or bbgun belt loops or pins. They come as part of your day camp or resident camp awards like the camp participant patch or certificates or whatever. if you go to the council office to try to get the belt loop, they won't give them to you. The only exception was Webelos Encampment, the belt loops and pins for archery and bbgun you could get at council--with the RM's signature on a special advancement form.

 

Now if you can just go buy them, then sure buy them for whoever you want....

[SSScout]

Brewmaster: Yes, the Pack can award whatever they think the Cub has "earned", but that is the operant word, "earned". By reading the requirements, one sees that the Archery Pin can only be earned at a Council or District sanctioned event, supervised by a BSA certified Range Master (use to be called Range Safety Officer). Therefore, even if it is not defined as such, it is heavily implied that the RM must okay the Cub as having fulfilled the APinrequirements so that the Pack may award it.

Here again, the inexact language allows the locals to do it their way, awarding patches and loops and pins as they see fit. But how is that "the Pack helps the Cub Scout grow", if it only makes the Cub happy, and not fulfilled in his recognized skill?

 

Can a Tiger Cub really excel at the skill represented by the pin?

 

See friend Hawkins comments about the Denleader and the Generalissimo Cubs.

 

"That which is too easily acquired is too lightly valued", even at 7 years old.

[lrsap]

5yr,

 

Makes perfect sense, and actually works well for this thread. Over here (unless it's changed lately) it's a pure Pack advancement thing. Of course the rules of only being earned at a District or Council event still apply, but they are definitely Pack decisions.

 

Truth be told I actually like the way they do it in your neck of the woods better. It definitely makes it clear as to whose award it is to approve.

 

I personally enjoyed the loop and pin program, but always used it as a supplement to the program rather than a focus like I see some other units do. If a belt loop or pin doesn't naturally fit into the program event you are running at the time, don't be so desperate to cram them in there.

 

And for the record, I still have no problem with a Tiger earning a pin because I still believe it is an award given based on the boy's ability at that time. That being said, your average 1st Grader will be picking weeds and chasing grasshoppers instead of really earning the pin. Then there will be those one or two that really are into it and do their best. Those two get the pin.