Immediate Recognition or wait for the paperwork?

[Beavah]

Yah, da previous thread brought up an interestin' issue. Traditionally in Scouting, a boy who earns a badge or rank is presented with it immediately. In fact, that immediate recognition was considered an important component of advancement method, eh? A lad who works hard and is awarded rank by a BOR should be able to show up at the very next meeting or event wearin' his new badge of rank proudly. His uniform should always reflect his actual status in da program.

 

Seems like lots of units have gotten away from that because of da (fairly recent) efforts by national supply to put a paperwork requirement in place. Now, granted, for a unit with adults who live a few miles from a scout shop and have free time durin' business hours, that only introduces a week's delay in awarding a boy his badge of office, unless the shop is out of stock. To my mind that's still unacceptable, as it could easily mean he goes off to summer camp or Philmont with da wrong badge on his uniform, especially in a troop that doesn't meet very often in the summer.

 

But for most troops that don't live so close to scout shops, the purchase waits for multiple badges to be earned, because yeh can't justify the 1 hour (or more) round trip drive to pick up only one or two badges in an era when gas prices are high. Or it waits for an even longer time for mail order. Then yeh start seein' units try to hold all their BORs at once so that they can pick up all da badges at once, which means they delay BORs for boys who are ready. And other things. Paperwork starts driving the program.

 

To my mind, we should never let paperwork drive the program. What matters is that the boy should be recognized immediately, and should be able to wear his proper badge of rank or skill proudly. We used to say a lad with da incorrect rank badge on was out of uniform, eh?

 

So my feelin' is that for units that care about such things, da proper thing to do is to build up a stash of badges by havin' boys order "replacements" for their current ranks and MBs and give 'em to the troop. That way when a boy earns a badge he can be awarded it immediately, and wear it proudly. Yeh replenish da stash when eventually supply gets around to mailin' yeh the order.

 

What says the group?

 

Beavah

 

 

[Eagledad]

Yep, I totally agree. We had a stash for that exact reason.

 

I will say that we did not recognise Eagles until National approved. There is still a very slight risk National will refuse. But once Council called, we pulled an Eagle badge from the stash and presented it at the next meeting.

 

Barry

[UCEagle72]

Back in the ancient days, when I was a SM, I always had a stash of badges for that exact purpose.

 

Now, I understand that with the latest requirements, Scout Shops are requiring advancement reports for badges -- but -- that does not cover the rank pins!

 

So why not lay in a stash of rank pins, and worry about the paperwork for the cloth emblems?

[RememberSchiff]

Well, I guess it was back in pre-ancient times, prehistoric times a scout waited until the next pack meeting or Court of Honor to be presented with a new badge and card in front of his parents. (Page 101 in my old Scout handbook 6th ed 1959). Teaching patience was one reason, practical logistics the other as Mrs. CM and SM , with paperwork in hand, would just make one trip to scout office each month or so. No unit rank award stockpiles.

 

Immediate recognition came later. We lost more than we gained.

 

My $0.02

[bnelon44]

If you want to talk about ancient days. It use to be that you didn't do board of reviews, that the council did. Then they presented the rank. Since a Scout is suppose to be Trustworthy, you are suppose to follow the process and file the paperwork to council before giving the award today. Why? Because for one thing a LOT of unregistered Scouts are caught that way.

 

What part of the Scout Law says it's ok to cheat if your an adult but the Scouts can't?

 

With Internet Advancement, I don't see any real excuse why the vast majority of units can't follow the process.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[Eagle92]

Now, I understand that with the latest requirements, Scout Shops are requiring advancement reports for badges -- but -- that does not cover the rank pins!

 

When I worked for a national shop, the Rank pins were included in the paperwork needed restriction.

 

I know I caused some headaches b/c I worked when National started allowing any Scout to wear the First Class Rank Pin on the expedition and campaign hats. Although any scout was allowed to wear it, they needed to fill out an Advancement report. kept bugging the boss that the rules didn't make sense.

 

RS, that's how my troop was, All awards given out at the quarterly COH, even after BSA changed the policy.

 

Bnelon,

 

As I stated, sometimes waiting for the paperwork to be submitted and the ranks to return is not a viable option. The Prague, Czech Republic pack I talked about in the original thread is one example. One Pack and troop that my shop served was in Indonesia. One package we sent took so long to get there several months, they bought a duplicate order, and another batch of stuff, and had a company courier to pick it up for shipment. And that is how we did it form then on.

 

Now grant you that is extreme. But in my council, there is a long history of the USPS delaying and losing stuff sent by mail. My pack sends stuff 2 weeks in advance and sends the report via fax. And there have been times were we get it the business day before the meeting, and in one instance after the meeting we needed the award. We're fortunate in that I work in a city with a different council's office, and i can usually get stuff my council doesn't have, or we were notified after the pack deadline. But not everyone has that luxury. There are some units where the drives is 2-4 hours one way.

 

Another thing is BSA changes policies. As mentioned, at one time Troops gave awards only at COHs. Don't know when that changed as my troop didn't do that until about 1994 so I am guessing 1989, but when the concept of giving the scout the rank as soon as he passed the BOR, I think the recommendation was within a week of the BOR.

 

And you can read about the national suppl;y issue in the original thread

[5yearscouter]

When you fill out an internet advancement report they print at least 4 pages long to waste a bunch of paper. Our big court of honor after the summer camp season the thing is like 8 pages long.

 

We then turn that thing in at the scout shop and the employees do not verify that everything you have in your pile to buy is exactly as listed out on the form. They take the form, initial it and put it in the stack.

 

So you can easily pick up 2 extra of each rank badge. That puts you ahead enough that most of the time you'll never have to make anyone wait.

 

Then be consistent in always turning in the advancement sheets in a timely manner to buy badges as the scouts complete their rank, so you never run out of badges, you always are replenishing your supply.

[Oak Tree]

We keep a stash of rank badges and award them the night that they are earned. Sometimes we might have to have a little bit of a discussion with the people at the store in order to get them to give us extra badges, but eventually they have always come around.

 

Normally once you build up your stash, you should be good, but then those centennial rank badges came along...

[BSA24]

I too am from ye olden days.

 

I did not receive "instant recognition." We had a COH ever three months instead of a regular meeting. It was a covered dish meal following the awards ceremony.

 

If you completed a badge, you waited until the COH to receive it.

 

My SM put a lot of work into the ceremonies - turning off the lights and lighting candles in the room. It was a very powerful experience.

 

Your dad pinned your pin on your pocket flap. You pinned your Mom with the mother's pin. The SM handed you the cloth badge.

 

The pin was put on upside down. We could only turn it right side up after doing our first good turn. This had to be a serious good deed and not just holding a door for someone. After receiving my tenderfoot pin upside down, I went to the local grocery store the next day and pulled all the carts in for them. Then I raced home and turned it right side up.

 

These days, SM's just wait till the end of the meeting, call up the boy, and hand them a cloth badge like it's another thing to do. Shake hands, good job, ok, sit down. Very casual with no sense of stage craft at all.

 

An old scouter wrote that there should be a sense of the picturesque in all things. We are losing that when we don't do these ceremonies.

[Beavah]

What part of the Scout Law says it's ok to cheat if your an adult but the Scouts can't?

 

I would expect the boys to "cheat" in exactly the same way as I'm suggestin', of course! In other words, I expect scouts to learn judgment and discretion and priorities, and properly place a young fellow gettin' the award he earned in a timely fashion ahead of da service corporation's desire for paperwork. Besides, da need to "catch" unregistered scouts is fulfilled just as well when the paperwork comes in two weeks later to purchase replacement badges for the stash.

 

Now, it's true we did used to wait for Courts of Honor for everything. I'm OK with that, for troops who still do it. But da current program is immediate recognition.

 

With Internet Advancement, I don't see any real excuse why the vast majority of units can't follow the process.

 

I take it yeh live in a major metropolitan area with a nearby scout shop and are retired?

 

In da rest of the world, that isn't often the case. Lots of units that are several hours round-trip from da nearest scout shop, and Eagle92 is right about postage and limits on available supply, especially in da late summer months.

 

Even if it's just a matter of convenience for da unit, the paperwork bein' timely is just a matter of convenience for da council, eh? And as good servant leaders, we council and national scouters should put the needs of those we serve ahead of our own, don't yeh think? Being Helpful and Courteous as we are.

 

Beavah

 

[bnelon44]

So a Scout is Trustworthy unless he wants something right away, then he cheats and lies to get a badge for someone under false pretenses.

 

got it ... good to know(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[5yearscouter]

Well our cheating to get badges ahead of the actual awarding of the badge was done so long ago, it doesn't even register as a misdemeanor--the people who originally did it are long gone. our box of badges has been around a very long time since the unit has been around over 80 years.

 

New units I would suspect that along with getting the unit up to speed and ready for scouts in a timely manner, all sorts of things are bought at the scout shop, and that first court of honor is always so interesting to try to get the paperwork right to match the badges when you don't know what you are doing. They should just give you 2-3 of every rank badge just to take the stress off the brand new advancement chair for that first court of honor in a new unit!

 

[GKlose]

A real life situation: adult-led, troop method advancement-oriented troop (is this the Perfect Storm, or what?)...new(er) leadership decides to push for a shift in advancement, namely giving credit to Scouts for positions of responsibility only when they've actually been present and doing something. Believe me, that transition from "old rules" to "new rules" can cause lots of problems.

 

In particular, the advancement chair (the arbiter of "new rules") tells Scouts, at a Board of Review, "okay, so you've pretty much had a free pass up to now, but from here on out you're going to be expected to actually participate and show some responsibility." So that's all well and good, until you come up to the first "test case."

 

The advancement chair announces, at a committee meeting, that we're running into our first case (of a Scout coming up to a Board of Review, as a Patrol Leader, but who had pretty much only attended a small handful of meetings and just a couple of outings in the past year -- remember, he'd been warned at the previous BoR).

 

It didn't take long, but the parent of the Scout in question became quite agitated, and started yelling, and couldn't possibly understand why his son would be singled out. It wasn't pretty at all. This is the only, before or since, where we had a parent lose it like that at a meeting.

 

When everything was settled, we figured out what the real problem was. Boards of Review were only being done the last meeting of the month, and rank badges were only handed out at Courts of Honor. This parent thought that his son, who would be running into time issues, if he wasn't awarded Life by the upcoming Court of Honor. Honestly, just a simple misunderstanding on his part (although I'd admit, he didn't need to fly off the handle to that extent).

 

A couple of simple corrective actions were taken: now we hold Boards whenever we're asked, provided there are enough adults around. The second is that a rank badge is handed over immediately. And in this particular case, a quick Scoutmaster conference with the Scout in question cleared up the issues with his leadership responsibility -- and he's attended quite a few meetings and outings since then. Just got his Eagle project approved last week. Turning 18 this fall, as I recall.

[Eagle92]

Benelon,

 

Curious as to how giving a scout the award after he has earned it is lying and cheating?

 

If the BOR approves the rank, signs off in the book AND the Advancement Report ( remember those messed up records I told ya about, they had to use my BSHB to verify the dates) then the Scout is that rank and is entitled to the badge.

 

Some real world examples. If someone get promoted at work, do they take over the new spot ASAP, or do they have to wait until all the bureaucratic stuff is done before doing the job? Most places I've worked at they start doing the job ASAP and the paperwork catches up.

 

Heck as long as it took for my Eagle to get approved, my old council's records were majorly screwed up and it took about 1.5-2 months just to clear up those records not to mention the time to and from national, my certificate for Eagle is dated the day of my EBOR.

 

 

So I do not see how giving the rank as soon as possible is lying.

[JMHawkins]

So a Scout is Trustworthy unless he wants something right away, then he cheats and lies to get a badge for someone under false pretenses.

 

The end result of stupid rules is a lack of respect for rules and the people who make them. And by "stupid" I mean a rule that creates more problems than it solves, or else pushes the burden of solving one person's problem onto another person simply because the "one person" is the rulemaker and they're disposed towards foisting their problems off onto folks under their authority because they can.

 

So if National "catches" unregistered scouts by requiring advancement reports to buy a rank badge, they're foisting their problems off on the actual Trustworthy units and scouters. That's another way respect for authority goes away - when the authority doesn't care to make a distinction between the "decent" folks and the trouble makers.

 

I think National can find better ways to catch the handful of units cheating on their dues than imposing hurdles on the vast majority of units that aren't. And if it's not cheating but simple record keeping errors, there's a better way to solve that problem too (hint, it's by using a better record keeping system).

 

A Scout is Obedient comes with a flip-side - anyone who expects obedience from people honorable and strong enough to follow the other 11 points of the Scout Law has an obligation to make rules worthy of such followers.