A signed BC is signed and done unless?

[Scoutfish]

Just got back from an awesome week of sumer camp. Had a blast watching the NSP develope a closer bond and learn to work together as a patrol.

 

So anyways, after the first full day of camp, one of the second year scouts comes up to me to ask if he could switch one of his merit badge classes.

 

I ask why and he says because they didn't do anything. The scout shoed up for robotics MB class about 5 minutes early. Then all the participating scouts sit around until the MB counselor shows up - 20 minutes late!

 

At this point, the counselor goes into the storage room and fumbles around for another 10 minutes.

 

Then he comes out and announces to the class:

 

" Okay, let's make a deal I can sign off your blue card and you can leave, or you can just hang out while I go play ultimate frisbee."

 

And this was the first day of a week long MB class!

 

Sadly, 3 or 4 scouts were ready to get their blue cards signed right then and there.

 

 

So, I have read many times that once a blue card is signed off by a MB counselor, then it is signed off and that's the end of it.

 

So maybe you can't test the scout to see if he really knows it, but I do believe the AC should be able to do a review with the scout to make sure all rtequirements were covered and that the scout actuallu understands what he learned ( or "supposedly" learned ) .

 

 

NOw, I can say I am pround of this scout. He has always shown great scout spirit and proven himself to be full of integrety.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

[ZScout5]

Did anyone from your unit talk to the camp program director? I think I would have done that first thing the second day if not sooner. Leaders should definitely question a bc signed off the first day and alert the pd or cd. They are responsible for the quality of the camp program.

 

No testing of merit badges allowed. Most are justly earned. Should we start testing all, to find the few who were signed off without requirements being met? A scout is trustworthy.

 

How can the AC go over requirements for a mb if they are not a counselor for that badge?

[moosetracker]

Yep, I would discuss it with the camp program director. And if they have no concern, then let the pd know that it will be brought up to the district & council level advancment chairs (which maybe won't be much of a threat if you are in a camp outside your own council.)

 

I know our District & council level advancement discuss the camp merit badges with the pd before camp starts, and after camp ends.. The bring up any complaints and really attempt to make sure that the meritbadges are run right.

 

I know recently the camp had to change how they did the fishing MB because the scouts did not do the cleaning of fish requirement. I don't know why, but they still don't clean a fish caught.(not enough stock in the pond they fish in??).. But the camp now has on hand fish they buy for the purpose of the boys doing the fish cleaning requirement. They have had to change other MB's to conform, or drop the MB if they could not.. I know our Council would be all over the pd for a merit badge given on the first day, for the scouts just showing up!

[Scoutfish]

We immediately went to the CXamp Director and Program director about this MB counselor.

 

The AC can compare the listed requirements on the BC that the counselor signed off and compare them to the book. During the BOR, the AC can ask questions that are not testing that can still let the AC know if the scout actually went over this stuff during the MB process.

 

And yeah, I know testing isn't allowed. But that' my whole point, maybe it shgould be.

 

Our scout was indeed trustworthy, honest and full of integrety.

 

But like I mentioned, 3 or 4 other scouts weren't. They were ready to make that deal with the MB counselor.

 

So yeah, a scout i supposed to be trustworthy and honest, but apparently, not all scouts are. The instructor provd it, and a handfull of MB participants proved it. Kinda a slap in the face to those who are honest and actually do the work to earn a MB.

 

SIDE NOTE I am very proud to say we only had the one scout in that class. All the other scouts were from another unit/units.

And it makes me feel good that out of 25 scouts - only 3 or 4 were willing to make such a deal.

[Scoutfish]

Overall, the MB counselors and camp staff were great! They did their jobs well.

 

A couple had a rough start on the first day, but we can also chalk that up to being the first sesion of summer camp and that the MB counselors may be doing their first stint as an instructor/ counselor.

 

But really, overall, the staff were full of enthusiasm and every scout in our troop really liked all the staff and counselors they worked with.

 

On Parents night, the scouts invited around 15 counselors and staff to eat at our campsite.

 

Really, it was just this one MB counselor and I am really surprised at how blunt he was on the fist day. Makes you wonder if he took this job because he was coerced or put in a situation where he had to.

[ScoutNut]

 

What to do now -

 

Contact Camp Director and let him know. This guy might be pulling this at every camp, all Summer long.

 

Find out (from CD) if this was the actual counselor, or just a helper. If it was an actual registered counselor, contact the Council Advancement Chair and let them know their counselor is not really counselling.

 

Let your Advancement Chair, and SM, know so that they never use this guy for any badges.

 

SM, and/or AC, should talk to the Scouts in the Troop who went to Summer Camp. They need find out if anyone had this guy for Robotics, or any other badges.

 

The Robotics badge is a no-go. Anyone with that badge is out of luck.

 

As for other badges earned at Summer Camp, and Merit Badge fairs, that is a slippery slope, and one often debated here.

 

Personally, I do not like the idea of an AC quizzing the Scouts to make sure they "actuallu understands what he learned ( or "supposedly" learned )". What criteria does the AC use to judge what/if the Scout "understands" anything? Does the AC "understand" every merit badge? Nope, this, in my opinion, is not the job of the AC.

 

BSA states that once a card is signed that is that. If feel that for the most part, we trust the merit badge counselors are doing their job correctly. Going over every requirement with the Scout, after the fact, undermines the program.

 

We are teaching our Scouts to live by the Scout Law. We need to show them that we trust them to do just that.

 

For me, unless I know for sure a MB Counselor was not doing his/her job, I would trust/accept their signature, and their word. However, once I knew they were inept, they would not be working with any of my Scouts.

 

Edited to take off questions already answered while I was typing!(This message has been edited by Scoutnut)

[ScoutNut]

>>" And yeah, I know testing isn't allowed. But that' my whole point, maybe it shgould be.">"The AC can compare the listed requirements on the BC that the counselor signed off and compare them to the book. During the BOR, the AC can ask questions that are not testing that can still let the AC know if the scout actually went over this stuff during the MB process."

[Scoutfish]

Well, I found out from talking to our AC guy - who was also at camp with us all week long - that he has his own full MB library .

 

Pretty much, he does his checking up on MB's that come from camps or MB fairs.

 

His position isn't so much one of " Lets see if we can catch a scout who doesn't know his stuff". but rather "Lets make sure the scouts are getting what they are asking for".

 

Sometimes he will ask a question like: What was your favorite MB? Which part of that MB was the best part or hardest? How long did it take?

 

Turns out last year a scout signed up for Citizenship ( in community) MB and somehow earned it completely in one day at camp. IMAGINE THAT!

 

Didn't meet/complete requirements 3a, 3b, or 8

 

AC found out because the scout said it was his favorite badge at camp because it only took one day.

[Scoutfish]

 

 

>>"The AC can compare the listed requirements on the BC that the counselor signed off and compare them to the book. During the BOR, the AC can ask questions that are not testing that can still let the AC know if the scout actually went over this stuff during the MB process."

[ghermanno]

Scoutfish,

 

Kudo's to your Troop and your Scout. Guess someone did something right somewhere. :-)

 

You did not say what the CD or PD said or did about this problem. Did they do anything?

 

Your best recourse, is to inform the CAC, DAC, DE, and SE. Let them know that you will also inform your Troop Sponsor who should be informed that his group is NOT getting what they paid for. This will inspire more corrections than any SM complaining.

 

As for the Blue Card, if it is signed by the SM (or approved rep) and signed by the councilor (not allways the camp trainer) then it is a done deal. Unfortunately I have seen that done in Merit Badge Universities/Camps as well.

 

Again Kudo's to you, your Troop, and the Scout.

 

My $0.02

 

Rick

[FScouter]

I know testing isn't allowed. But that' my whole point, maybe it shgould be.

 

For the most part, we trust the merit badge counselors are doing their job correctly. Going over every requirement with the Scout, after the fact, undermines the program.

 

If the problem is merit badge counselors that dont cover the material and who falsely certify completion, the solution to that problem isnt re-testing at the unit level. The solution is to properly select and monitor the counselors that will do a proper job.

 

If the problem is a Scout is unsafe with his pocket knife and cuts himself, the solution is not to outlaw knives. The solution is not to stock extra band-aids. The solution is to teach and monitor safe handling of a knife.

 

Of course, stocking extra band-aids, or outlawing knives is easier than teaching and practicing knife safety. Re-testing is easier than selecting a good counselor that promises to do a good job. But which is better?

[Scoutfish]

"The solution is to properly select and monitor the counselors that will do a proper job."

 

So, how do you monitor the counselors?

 

How do you know if they arw doing what tey are supposed to be doing?

 

You can't sit in on every MB session or class.

 

Maybe testing isn't the correct terminology. maybe we call it polling the scout to see that the counselor did his part correctly.

And I say did his part because we don't want to punish a counselor when the issue is on the part of a scout.

 

 

 

[qwazse]

'fish. Yours and my troops are victims of week #1. Full of glitches. On the flip side, the staff is fresh and full of enthusiasm.

 

First, I have real issues with Robotics at summer camp in general.

Second, this camp was clearly not prepared to offer the badge. Staff should be able to apologetically drop a course from the schedule rather than put on that they can offer it in a timely fashion.

 

The best remedy for this is trustworthy scouts, abandoning FCFY, and not making Eagle so important that one feels the need to violate the Scout Law to obtain it!

[JMHawkins]

The best remedy for this is trustworthy scouts, abandoning FCFY, and not making Eagle so important that one feels the need to violate the Scout Law to obtain it!

 

I tend to agree. Question though. What's the thinking on a little pre-emtive discussion with scouts about creampuff MBC? Should we talk to the scouts ahead of time and let them know they might, on occasion, run into a MBC who signs off on stuff they never really did, and give them some guidance on how to handle it?

 

Can be kind of hard for some kids to understand an adult isn't always right, and especially if they've been brought up a little sheltered, or a little too rule-bound, they might now know what to do...

[Lisabob]

I wish I could believe this was just "week one" malfunction. But every single year (for about 6 years) that my son has gone to BSA camp (a different camp each year, not usually in week one), this same thing has happened in at least one MB class. Consequently, I think it is a reliable outcome of the structure of the program.

 

I worked on camp staff, though not at a BSA camp, for about a decade and I'm well aware of first week glitches, challenges with staff training, etc. But we never would have accepted the poor program quality that seems to be routine at most BSA camps. And our campers certainly wouldn't have come back next year, if we'd done that.

 

Is it worth a pre-emptive speech to your guys? Yeah, probably. In that speech might also be some guidelines to what you want them to do with a camp counselor whose method of "instruction" includes screaming insults and obscenities, and behavioral expectations for your scouts when things aren't going well in their MB classes at camp. There seems to be a temptation on the part of some boys that, if the class is a bust and the MBC is a jerk, to be jerky back. Not the best option, everybody ends up in the mud that way.