Scouts angling to shorten Merit Badge Reqs

[moosetracker]

This goes hand in hand with other conversations about advancement, But I really didn't see where to spin it off from.

 

I have agreed to be a MBC for a scout to finish up the Communication MB that he started at camp. I have got 2 emails from him where I feel he is angling to make the MB easier. The first request I think I dealt with fine. It will probably make those who are stricter with definining advancement happy and those who like making it the easiest on the scout unhappy.

 

The second one I would also like to say "No" to but have some reservations and doubts..

 

First one : I'm not sure when the next Court of Honor is, but I can work on planning it out for requirement 8. I was also wondering if the program for the CoH could be considered a brochure for requirement 7c.

 

This one I told him was double dipping to do one thing and count one item for 2 seprate requirements.. So "NO"..

 

Second one : I do have a question about number 6. I know for a fact that I have taught the younger members of the troop various skills at the meetings over the years, and I wonder if that can be counted as requirement 6. If so, do I need to get the scoutmaster to sign off on it? If so, it shouldn't be a problem, because I recently taught lashings to the troop at a meeting. I did prepare a couple of assistants, carried out my plan, and made sure that they had learned what I taught them.

 

OK.. I admit that some of my reservations for this is the fact I know this troop has gone downhill, it is so adult lead these scouts have little opportunity to teach or lead anything.. If it was just "teaching various skills over the years", then I would say "No", but the "recently taught lashings to the troop at a meeting." does give me pause.. He started the MB at summer camp.. He asked me to finish up the MB 2 weeks ago. The MB requirement does state "With your counselors approval.." So I guess I have the right to deny, on those grounds. We emailed about some ideas but he never came up with a plan and discussed it with me, so I never gave approval.. I feel more at ease about saying No if the teaching was before I became his MBC even if it was since he started the MB at camp.. But, just not sure if my opinion of what he is learning in this sorry excuse for a troop has me riding too hard of a line to say "No" if the teaching took place since our first talk where we did discuss the requirement and during that I gave some examples, and something about knot tieing was an example used..

Personnally I would have liked to have notice when he was going to do the teaching, and if possible have attended and been able to see if the scouts were learning. But, I know it is not a requirement that I be in attendence, only that I have given my approval..

[Lisabob]

Admittedly I am doing this on the fly, not looking at the requirements right now, but I thought there was a requirement that the boy prepare some kind of teaching aid - so what did he prepare? He should be able to show you or explain it to you in detail. Similarly, how did he present the material? It is one thing to say "I told them how" and another to explain how you led the boys through the process of learning the lashing.

 

Part of that conversation might be about whether he felt the boys were learning, or how he knew if they were learning the material. If there was a lecture component or direct instruction ("I stood in the front of the room and talked or demonstrated") then what cues was he looking for to see if his audience was with him? Body language, for example? Not all communication is verbal. What about managing group interactions, how did he do that - did he feel that worked well, was it difficult to keep people on task, etc.?

 

So I guess - if he can talk it through with you in detail, I might be inclined to say ok. If he can't then he has gone through motions without actually completing the intent of the badge (which is to work on and improve communication ability) and I would say not quite yet. In the latter case, perhaps he could offer to do a reprise of his performance for some new scouts, a webelos den, etc, after having worked with you on this a little bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chaoman45]

Let's see requirement #6:

 

With your counselor's approval, develop a plan to teach a skill or inform someone about something. Prepare teaching aids for your plan. Carry out your plan. With your counselor, determine whether the person has learned what you intended.

 

The idea behind "counselor's approval" means he got permission BEFORE starting. By what you're saying, it doesn't seem like he did.

 

What teaching aid did he use? Demonstrations/assistants don't necessarily count, but maybe a gadget would.

 

And, as the requirement says, it is up to you to make sure the Scouts learning in question actually learned something. Just because somebody demonstrates it does not mean you actually learn/retain it - I've seen it happen.

[moosetracker]

You are correct that the teaching must be with visual or teaching aids.. The one he mentions as being recent, I thought stated he had teaching aids.. But just now re-reading it, it says I did prepare a couple of assistants so I was reading into it "teaching assistance" as in non-people tools, but he could mean a couple other scouts were helping with the teaching.. I would imagine he had rope for hands on, but if there were others involved was it then really him in the lead, or all 3 on equal ground as teachers and he is kindof slanting the view.

[Lisabob]

Having rope isn't the same as preparing a teaching aid. I'm a teacher. That's like saying that I use chalk as a teaching aid. Yahuh. To do what? Set the bar higher than "I brought some rope."

 

 

[chaoman45]

moosetracker - The Scout isn't very clear on his work. For all we know, the assistants did all the work or just sat around, did nothing, and somehow qualified as helping. I don't know. Personally, I'd rather not delve into split-hair scenarios like this because if one has to think REALLY hard on what qualifies, then it doesn't seem like it's worth the time. Why not challenge him?

 

With no offence to the Scout, but he sounds either real young (like 13 or so) or he's a really really lazy old guy.

[moosetracker]

chaoman45 - you are correct approval should come BEFORE.. I hesitate because when we talked last we discussed this, and I gave an example as teaching knots, with the rope for scouts to have hands on, maybe a passout showing different angles of the knot being tied, maybe a knot board for display..

 

Question will be did this knot teaching come after that talk. When we had the talk he didn't say "Arrghhh.. I just did something like that last week".. I have had scouts in the past take an example I gave them for family Life for a home project they could do, the follow through with my example without my approval thinking it was a form of approval by me because I offered it an an acceptable project.. Due to mis-communication I accepted the project even though they did not get the approval. Since that time I stress 3 or 4 times to "get approval by me".. quick phone call is all they need to do..

 

To be honest though I have been a communication MBC for a while I usually get 1 or 2 things to finish up with them after summer camp.. Not 5 or 6 things.. So this is the first time this "get approval" on this requirement has tripped me (or the scout) up..

 

As stated I have more a tendency to say "NO" here, because I would have liked to have been present when he did the training, to see for myself if it was done well.. But that is not in the requirements that I be present, so that is adding to the requirement..

 

Denying because he didn't get approval first is my ace in the hole. But, if I find on talking to him, it was because he took my example as approval to do this training.. I will really feel like a hard-a__ because it would not be my true reason.. My true reason would be the scouts from this troop need more opportunity to be trainers and leaders since the units program doesn't do that, and I would like to see him do it, because again these scouts don't get much practice at it, so I have no clue if he really knows how to do a good training, and is good at communication.

 

[moosetracker]

This scout is getting close to Eagle, so 16 or 17.. He just got into the troop when it was good, and had about 1 year of a good troop and was a promising scout. He has now lived in the troop as it went from boy led to Adult led with Adults that play games with advancements to push the boys through without really having to work at it..

 

I gave an example about a month back where the newer scouts were complaining because they couldn't get sign-offs on things requiring you be camping.. (The troop rarely camps or does much but set up events, and cancel them for lack of planning).. Anyway, the troop set up camp in the CO's backyard, and signed all the new scouts off on things only one scout should have been signed off on.. example "the Patrol Cook".. One meal, 5 scouts got signed off for that requirement. Site selection.. All 5 got signed off in one night.. etc..

 

Sadly the scout has become the product of the troops program..

[Jay K]

When I get a situation like this, I tell the Scout "sell me." Present your argument. Tell me why I should honor your request.

Sometimes they shrug, and go and do the requirement to a level that there's no question. Sometimes they do "sell me, " but not often. I had a Scout at a recent Lifesaving MB class who told me he's a lifeguard and CPR certified. I said "Show me the cards." "They are at home." So, he did all the requirements. I had him demo and lead some modules, but hey, if you're going to "sell me, " you've got to produce.

[GKlose]

I think some Scouts just naturally try to slide by as best they can, working every angle they can think of.

 

Case in point: Cooking MB, and a Scout from the troop comes to me as the counselor. I'd previously counseled him in Music MB, so I knew he was just a "slide by" minimal effort kind of kid. First meeting, I warned him and his buddy that Cooking was not a simple merit badge, that there were a lot of tiny details to work through.

 

So the wise-guy of a Scout turns in a "camping menu" (versus "home menu" or "backpacking menu") that has mango listed as a fruit for every meal and Mountain Dew as a beverage for every meal. I naturally suspect "wise guy" and ask him to do it again for real. He swears up and down that he always eats mangos and drinks Mountain Dew. But I don't give in. He repeats it, but it wasn't a particularly good menu. It is missing quantities and pricing (a key part of the reqt, if you ask me).

 

His "backpacking menu" includes a generic "freeze dried meal" listed for every entry. He redoes it, but with minimal effort -- lists things like "pita bread and lunchmeat" (even though I'd already prepped them with some discussion about what makes a good backpacking meal, and about the lack of refrigeration "until someone invents a lightweight backpacking refrigerator"). No weights or quantities listed, another key part, if you ask me.

 

When talking about actually cooking these things, he argues about our SM, "Mr. W. will probably tell you I've cooked before", even though having been on outings with this kid, I know that he is never around when cooking is going on. He probably had not cooked since T21 reqts, and even then, I would suspect he didn't do much. Anyway -- I tell him no, I want to see him cook myself. We're at a patrol-oriented summer camp that summer, with patrol cooking, and I make note that every time he is listed to cook, he manages to find someone else to "assist". It gets funnier, because when it was time for one of his turns at cleanup, he delayed and delayed, and then 10 minutes before it was time to leave for program activity, he yells out "hey, there's almost no time for cleanup left, so everyone has to help out!".

 

So, about the menus -- he resubmitted them to me, and I'm pretty sure they were exactly the ones I turned down prior. So this time I wrote down exactly what was missing and what I expected to see (exactly the requirements, no more, no less). I didn't hear from him, or the buddy, about this MB again.

 

Several months later, I'm going through our Troopmaster advancement details -- both Scouts had been earning a lot of merit badges, so I looked to see about Cooking. Both were marked as complete. They'd decided to go to another counselor. I think they decided I was being too intolerant by asking them to actually follow the requirements.

 

But I don't feel badly about it, not at all. I asked nothing more than exactly the requirements, which I had warned them up front were very detailed and weren't easy.

 

I'm bugged, though. I don't think I would agree to do another MB with them. MBs are a better time to teach reading comprehension (the requirements, for example) rather than taking the easy way out. I'm probably more bugged that there is a cooking MB counselor out there that lets Scouts do half the work but sign off the blue cards.

 

Which brings up another quick story -- I'm at this patrol-oriented summer camp, with patrol cooking, and we're sharing a large site with another troop (separate patrol flys, though). The SM from the other troop tells me that after the week of patrol cooking, they have their scouts get a note from home that they cooked a meal and then sign off Cooking MB for them. No kidding -- that only leaves off about 75% of the actual requirements for the MB, including what I think are some of the more important ones (discussions about sanitation and food-borne illnesses, for example).

 

Guy

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

I guess I'm not getting it. A week of patrol camping seems like it would be a pretty good basis for learning cooking. Why did they need a note from home?

 

Last summer I was a Commissioner at a Scout Camp. One of my troops was a Scoutreach troop with a young man who was an Eagle Scout as a paid Scoutmaster --- probably just 21.

 

There was one night of patrol cooking, and this troop didn't manage to get a fire started to cook dinner. They sorta gnawed raw what was available for dinner I was told.

 

I imagine there was a certain variability among the quality of dinner between different patrols that night, but that was the only flat failure I heard about.

 

The ultimate lesson of Boy Scouts is that you can't BS your way when you are camping. That's what boys ought to be learning, anyway.

 

A place a good deal of emphasis on cooking with my Cub Scouts. We have a June overnight campout. For dinner the Cub Scout wrapped potatoes in foil and baked them, then added cooked hamburger and topping and such to make a meal. They had an experience of making a simple meal for themselves.

 

In the morning boys cook pancakes for themselves and their families. Each year I have the joy of watching several boys flip their first pancake! How the parents can miss that experience I don't know.

 

Usually I have to chase away parents who want to take over making pancakes from Cub Scouts. It's usually the only thing you see those parents volunteering to do.

 

These are usually the parents I figure just do not have a clue.

 

 

[moosetracker]

SP - The cooking MB has been changed, maybe 6 or 7 years back. Use to be camp cooking. Now it is 3 styles of cooking. Camp cooking, Backpack cooking, Home cooking.. I am sure the note from home was that they did their Home cooking portion. Most likely the things GKlose thinks that went missing in the MB were the non-cooking requirements.. Some of it might have been done while in camp, but things like discussions about sanitation and food-borne illnesses, may have been adult lead if the scouts don't have reference material at hand.. Hard to get food prices if you don't take a trip to a grocery store also, but a menu (minus a few details) could have been done.. So maybe it wasn't quite 75% they were lacking in..

[moosetracker]

Ok guys.. thanks for your input. This is what I wrote back to him in response to the email he had sent me.

 

This one I had to get advice from others.. Consensus was Sorry, but no.. I wavered on if recently for the lashings it was since you started the Communications Merit Badge.. Teaching before the Merit Badge was started would have been an automatic No.. But, the advice I got pointed out a few things..

 

 

 

1) Prepare a couple of assistants I take this to mean that you had others help with the training. Although this in itself is good practice in leading others, because the training was not solely done by you, it is unknown if the people learned from what you were doing in the front of the room or by what your assistants were showing them.. Meaning even if there is proof they learned, it may have not been because of your awesome communication skills.. Therefore if you do lashings or knots again, you may want to do a one-on-one training or smaller group so you are not in need of assistants..

 

2) You need to have prepared Teaching aids.. (not as in people being assistants), but as in some sort of material you use to help you with your communication (and more than just bringing rope for lashings which is a no-brainer for that type of training.) You need to think about either a flip chart, hand-out, power-point, (lashings maybe could have had a knot board).. etc..

 

3) This requirement needs you to be mentally aware of why you are going through the exercise. Its focus is on you working to improve your communication skills. In past Trainings that you have carried out your focus was maybe on teaching the skill, or just getting through an assignment.. I guess you & I do not have to work on #5 (Attend a public meeting).. A similar question has been asked about that.. Can I use the public meeting I attended when I did Citizenship & the Community.. The answer would be only if you were doing both merit badges at the same time and went to the meeting focusing on what both Merit badges want you to focus on.. the Community MB have you focus on something other than listening, note taking and objective reporting skills. It is not the act of having done, but the act of doing with a predetermined objective in mind.

I guess currently you are taking the Camping merit badge with my husband. I know he will look at your past camping trips and use them, as well as other camping tasks you did before starting the MB.. This is a little different.. The focus is on camping while you camp, which you definitely did. It might be different if the focus was on teaching younger scouts camping skills while you camp, or focus on Leave No Trace while you camp.

 

4) If possible I would like to attend when you do the teaching, in order to witness you in action and offer any advice for improvement.

 

5) The Requirement does state with counselor approval.. Although I hate pulling that card when the scout has done a project with forethought and intent for the sole purpose of the MB requirement, and it was carried out well, just forgetting the detail about contacting me first. I dont mind pointing to that part of the Requirement if a scout is asking me to approve something that was not carried out for the MB requirement in the first place, was not done right, or was not something I would have approved in the first place.

 

At the end of letter (there were a lot of other items in the letter that I could figure out the response for myself) I added this:

 

....I truly do not want to make the MB any more difficult for you by trying to add to the requirements.. But, I also want to make sure that both you and I know that you did earn the merit badge by doing things the right way, so that you can be proud of your accomplishments.

[Tampa Turtle]

As to boys angling to shorten requirements; it reminds me of a (paraphrased) line from a play I saw (might have been carousel--it was a girl talking about her amorous boyfriend)

 

"Boys will try and try but it is we who must deny!"

[artjrk]

I agree with your denying the first email request.

I don't agree with how you handled the second. I did not see anywhere that you actually had a discussion with the scout based on the question he raised. If you had you could have asked him to show you the plan he had for his lashing lesson. He could have shared with you how he prepared his assistants (an important type of communication in it own right), he could have given you a summary on how the actual demonstration went, what went well and what didn't. Maybe he actually did have teaching aids, but you didn't ask him. Did you find out exactly when he did this lesson? Did you take a moment to actually talk to the SM or the SPL about how it went?

 

Another problem I have is your letting a prejudice you have towards how the troop is being run now and how you think the scout's presentation went.

 

True, he did not get prior approval, but even you had questions about that from a previous discussion you did have with the scout.

 

Part of the MB program is Adult Interaction. An email back and forth is not good interaction.