Can rank be taken away after committee has approved

[kittle]

My son wnet before BOR last week for Life and was approved. He went to his regular weekly meeting and was told by the SM that the advancement was now being taken back. I then found out yesterday that one of he committee members called the CubMaster/Den leader from the Pack that my son is den chiefing for. My son was aggravated about the whole deal, but there isn't much he can do about it. So, I guess that my question is 'Can they do this? and Is it really fair?'

[emb021]

Rank can not be taken back.

 

If the BOR was held, and everything else was signed off, that's it. Its approved.

 

If there was an issue with his role as Den Chief, this should have been brought up before hand, ideally during the SM conference or before he was signed off for the leadership role item. What business does this committee member have to call the cubmaster or den leader. He/she overstepped their bounds.

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Ask your Chartered Organization Representative to meet in business setting with the Scoutmaster and the Unit Commissioner. Ask for it during business hours.

 

As a practical matter, if the unit has not submitted the Advancement Report, BSA "offiicially" does not know of the rank. That does not mean what the Troop did is right, but ...

[Crew21_Adv]

kittle,

 

Greetings!

 

A Scout can go to a Board of Review for two reasons, to see if they are ready for the next rank, and also to see why they are not advancing, usually those Scouts are not camping or not bringing their handbook.

 

A Scout can receive two answers from a BOR. "Advanced", and "Not yet ready for advancement". It is not a fail, it is not taken back, it is not yet ready for advancement.

 

I concur with emb021 statement. Rank cannot be taken back. The Scout should bring their handbook to an advancement BOR. Was your son's handbook signed off as completing a BOR? Is it possible that he received a "not yet ready for advancement"?

 

If his handbook was signed by the BOR members, an advancement report should have been submitted. Your troop cannot take back a rank.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[kittle]

His book was signed off and then marked out. It hasn't been turned in to council so it isn't official, I just felt that it was dirty to tell the boy one thing at the BOR and then change the decision.

[SMT224]

On the face of it this appears outrageous and unfair. Both your son and you deserve a very clear explanation as to why the Committee felt compelled to take this action. And it had better be a very good reason.

 

As others here have said, this transgression is not the way Scouting is done - once a rank has been earned and awarded, it cannot be taken back. This would certainly never happen in out Troop, and clearly in the Troops that have responded to your initial posting.

 

However, it appears the Committee for your Troop feels differently. While I concur with the advice to bring in the Chartered Organization Representative, I would first place a phone call to the Committee Chair and ask for an explanation of their actions. What was it they discovered whilst speaking with the Cub Master? What element of the Life advancement did they come to believe he had completed unsatisfactorily? How does the Scoutmaster feel about this? No doubt he had a Scoutmasters Conference, and was in essence recommending that the Scout be awarded the rank advancement as he had completed all the requirements.

 

Like Ricky said, "You got some splainin to do!"

[Buffalo Skipper]

Not trying to pry, but you have not said why the committee wants to rescind it's approval. What did he do with his den which made them change their mind?

 

Not that this matters, but it may at least help us understand the "why" of it.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm....

 

Yah, it would help a bit to know what's up, eh?

 

I'd say da action is unusual. One that we hope would be avoided.

 

However, there's nothing "official" until those committee members sign off on and submit an advancement report to the council office, which presumably they haven't done. At that point, the boy has the BSA rank in the eyes of the BSA. Still, the lad has to live in his unit, eh? And I reckon some good Scoutmasters would hold on to a badge and a card if they thought that was a necessary response to a real behavioral problem.

 

As a parent, I think yeh need to focus on whatever the issue with your son's behavior was with younger scouts that elicited this reaction, eh? That's your role as the most important adult in his life. Da rank stuff is just a kid's game token. It can wait.

 

Beavah

 

[eisely]

I concur with the others that a rank cannot be revoked or taken back. It would be useful to know more of the back story on this. You and your son are certainly entitled to a full discussion. If there was some aspect of your son's performance as a den chief that was not satisfactory and did not meet the requirement for a "position of responsibility" then this should have been identified much earlier in the process.

 

I tend to fault the SM more than anybody else. The SM has a great deal to handle, but the SM is the one who signed off at a scoutmaster conference that everything was OK when perhaps it was not OK.

 

Keep the book in your possession as it is an important record. However, if the troop has not yet submitted a rank advancement report to the council, there is not much you can do to force them to do that. You need to find out what the real complaint was before anything else happens.

[John-in-KC]

This goes back to some guidance in ACP&P: The unit is responsible to oversee the Scouts' performance of his assigned Positions of Responsibility. If the Troop deploys a Den Chief, but does not follow up on what he does, shame on the Troop.

 

IMO any Troop deploying Den Chiefs should also deploy an ASM to the Pack Committee, perhaps co-registered there as a committeeman, to coordinate support and to be an additional mentor and resource to the Scouts.

 

Like the others, more backstory would be useful, kittle. You've posted here before and well, but the clearer the picture, the clearer we can talk.

[acco40]

Rank can be "taken back" - ask a few "former" Eagles who've had their rank removed.

 

Now, if a BOR has agreed to advance a Scout - they should stick to their guns. If the BOR does not, they need to provide specific written instructions for the Scout defining what he needs to do in order to advance. Not weasel words like 'be a better Scout', or 'act more mature' or 'show leadership.'

 

John in KC - the Den Chief should have been selected by both the SPL and Scoutmaster and approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee. I don't think having an SA attend the den meetings or pack meetings is necessary or desirable.

[John-in-KC]

SA,

 

Having been a Pack committee chairman, having had to go begging for support from Troops, I'd welcome an ASM to be the adult liaison between Pack and Troop. Help coordiante needs and opportunities, help get Boy Scouts to where they're needed for a win-win.

 

Too many of the DL's/CMs/CCs in Cubbing I see are newbies to Scouting. They don't have a clue. I've had a DL, with a trained strip on the shoulder, tell me with all earnestness that a Den Chief meets 2-deep leadership.

 

I would not ask an ASM to routinely attend den functions. Look in now and again on the function of the youth.

 

BTW, while the DL and CM should be giving feedback to Troop Leadership, they should have some vague clue about when their Den Chiefs are contemplating advancement. Late reporting is on them.

 

Have you ever noticed this all works if everyone is considerate of everyone else first?

[eghiglie]

kittle

 

A step like this is not taken without an explanation. What was the reason for the revoke?

 

There are a lot of "ifs" and "should of's" here. But in any case the boy should of been given a chance to refute whatever charges were made.

 

Good luck

[NealOnWheels]

Yeah the committee did not follow proper procedures and what they did was very wrong. But making a big stink about it will likely be counter productive. They should give a reason to why they reveresed their decision and what can be done to correct it.

 

Pushing the issue would likely cause a lot a friction and could cause issues when his time for Eagle comes.

[kittle]

The question asked of the Cub Master was only if their Pack met during the summer, which the answer was yes. Then was asked if my son attended those meeting, which the answer was yes. I am an ASM with the Troop and have been helping this new Pack get started and going strong as they are a very small Pack from a very small town. I went to any meeting with him that I did not have to work. Part of the problem is that the SM never wrote down in the records when my son started as Den Chief.

 

As NealOnWheels stated, I can't make a big fuss about it because it could cause him trouble when he goes for his Eagle BOR. They weren't too happy that he didn't have all his Eagle required MBs already. And one of the members on our Troop committee is also on the District committee. my son loves scouts, but I am tired of the politics of it. And I still have 2 more sons to take through the program (another 15 years).

 

By the way, my son took over helping this Pack at least 6 months before the SM would let him be Den Chief. He couldn't hold 2 POR at one time and he was already a Patrol leader.(This message has been edited by kittle)