SeaGull99 10 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 My son is the PL of a patrol in his troop. After the elections, the troop holds some sort of troop leadership training once a boy is elected to a position. The troop was supposed to hold this training in October but due to scheduling conflicts, it was put off until January. Right before the training my son was sent home from school due to illness (our doctor diagnosed him with the flu). So, obviously (to me anyway) I did not let him attend the training. The day of the training, we ran two errands--one to get medicine, and one to get movies since our cable box was on the blink. Turns out, we were seen running said errands while the training was going on, and my son was "turned in" to the SM for being absent. Now, (3 weeks later) the SM is denying my son his next rank advancement (Star) for not attending this meeting despite having the flu. The SM says if my son was well enough to watch movies then he was well enough to attend training. That isn't true. If my son would have shown up with the flu those adults/parents would have been furious! Who wants the flu? Can the SM deny rank for missing that meeting (we have a doctor's note and a school document that shows he missed 5 days of school)? If not, with whom do we file a complaint? Link to post Share on other sites
Nike 94 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 1. SM can not deny rank advancement, only a Board of Review can. Is the SM or an ASM refusing to sign off on Scout Spirit or the SM conference (not a pass/fail event either.)? If a BOR denied him advancement, they have to give the Scout a written notice of what he should do in a certain time frame to correct deficeinies. An example: Refrain from cursing at troop activities for the next two months while also attending those activities. Ask your son to request a SM conference, again if need be. If the SM/ASMs refuse, take it up with the Committee Chair. 2. I think you have a bigger problem than not advancing if people are "turning each other in." What kind of environment is it if Scouts or Scouters or parents are doing this? The boy was sick, and you as a parent are responsible for his well-being. Sure, he could have probably sat in a chair at training and paid half attention through the fog of meds while coughing on every one, but he wouldn't have been actively participating. Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGull99 10 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 Actually, I need to clarify. My son was denied a SM conference. Without having the SM conference first, my son can't schedule his BOR so that he can then be cleared to advance to Star rank (his book is signed off on everything but the SM conference and the BOR). The Court of Honor for Feb. is fast approaching and the SM will not answer our emails nor will he discuss it with my son. We are pretty sure he is delaying his SM conference so that my son doesn't get his rank at this month's Court of Honor. Plus, at the last meeting, he called out names of about 7 of the boys and asked them to stand up (my son was included in the t or so). When those boys stood up, he scolded them in front of the entire troop, with parents and visitors present. I understand the boys should be held responsible for their actions, especially those that just made the choice not to show up, but the SM didn't even acknowledge that perhaps some boys (like mine) had a legitimate excuse for missing the training. My son explained his circumstances only to be told that if he was well enough to watch movies then he was well enough to go to the training. By the way, an Asst SM is who turned my boy in to the SM, and that individual also happens to be our Troop's Committee Chair as well as a relative of the SM. Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I got halfway through writing a fairly detailed reply with all the technical points of BSA Advancement policy when I realized that you had added this follow up note. But forget details of the advancement policy. These guys won't care. They are beyond reason. Go to the next troop meeting. Ask to speak with the SM and committee chairman/ASM privately. Explain to them that a good Scoutmaster never criticizes a Scout publicly and you are offering him that courtesy dispite him not having the decency to extend the same courtesy to your son. Explain to him that he is the poorest excuse for a Scoutmaster to ever put on the uniform. Take your son by the hand, walk out the door and don't look back. If you are so inclined, put all this in a letter to your local Council Executive. Ask him for the names of real Scoutmasters in the area and for the procedure to appeal your son's Star Board of Review to the Council Advancement Committee. Link to post Share on other sites
Twocubdad 665 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I'm sorry. Did that come off sounding angry? GOOD!! If the rest of you aren't mad about it too, you need to go back and re-read the thread. Anyone who treats Scouts like this has no business being in the program. Link to post Share on other sites
Lisabob 13 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 From what you write, I agree that it is kind of silly for the SM to be making these judgments based on incomplete information. (And also the bit about being "turned in" strikes me as ridiculous too.) SM's should trust parents' decisions about health issues. Your son is up for Star, no small accomplishment. That suggests that he has been in the troop for a while, probably knows the SM reasonably well, and should be able to approach the SM and have a conversation about this. Even though I agree that the SM is being unreasonable, based on what you wrote, the truth is that there are many seemingly unreasonable people in the world. So before YOU do anything, encourage your son to talk with the SM and explain his perspective. Your son should also find out what the SM thinks he ought to do in order to be "ready" to advance. Perhaps they can come to a more reasonable agreement, even if it isn't perfect. Now if that does not work, you could talk with the Committee Chair over that proverbial cup of coffee. Explain your confusion about why attendance at a training, which is not an advancement requirement and which occurred on a day when your son was ill, is grounds for the SM's decision. The CC isn't going to over-rule the SM on the spot (I hope) but it might result in some additional conversation and clarification between CC and SM. Your son could also request a BOR anyway. It would give him an opportunity to air his concerns to other adult leaders, who could then (perhaps) keep a close eye on the SM and his various policies. BORs do not always have to be focused solely on advancement. If all of that fails, the SM is completely and totally unreasonable, the CC is uninterested in working through things, and the other adults are all in agreement with the SM, then I suggest you evaluate whether this is a troop your family wants to be part of, and/or whether the situation is likely to be on-going. Because honestly, there really aren't too many places to "file a complaint" outside of the troop. You could try to contact your district advancement chair, but that's a major escalation, shouldn't be done lightly, and may very well not work out for you anyway (most DACs are reluctant to get involved in the nitty-gritty about troop advancement, except in really messy situations and when it comes to Eagle). Even if it does, attempting to call in the district folks tends to burn bridges with the troop. So that's the final straw and not the place to start, I hope. Link to post Share on other sites
Kudu 186 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review are designed to keep a Boy Scout Troop adult-run. They are a flat rejection of Baden-Powell. SeaGull99 writes: "After the elections, the troop holds some sort of troop leadership training" Actually "Troop Leadership Training" (TLT) is available on-line in the form of a PowerPoint Presentation you download to your computer. See: http://olc.scouting.org/resources/TLT.ppt LTL lacks any substance and is easy to memorize, if you want your son to suck up. If the Scoutmaster is a holder of the Wood Badge (look for a pink neckerchief and wooden beads hanging around his neck), then make SURE that your son memorizes EDGE, the Mission and Vision Statements, and the fake Baden-Powell quote about the "Patrol Method." And have him bring a pack of tissue. Holders of the Wood Badge get all weepy when they believe that junk leadership training has "made a difference in a young man's life." Kudu Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Kudu, this thread is not about your perceptions about the errors in the BSA direction. Do you have any specific advice for SeaGull99? Link to post Share on other sites
Kudu 186 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Who are you to say what this thread is about? I gave him specific advice: Download the junk leadership PowerPoint Presentation. Link to post Share on other sites
evmori 11 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Denied a SM Conference because he didn't attend a unit training session? I'd ask this SM to show you where in the Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook & the Advancement manual where it says this unit training is required to advance. Bet he can't find it. If he is still being staunchy about this, I would appeal to the Advancement Chair. And remember, a Scoutmaster Conference is not a pass/fail requirement. It only requires participation.(This message has been edited by evmori) Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I completely endorse Lisa's advice. Hers is the approach that closest resembles the Scout Law. Link to post Share on other sites
Buffalo Skipper 13 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Like John, I agree with Lisa's advice. It is pragmatic, practical, and is not over-the-top. On the other hand, if the SM and CC are kin, and the CC is also an ASM (really out of line with BSA's organizational expections of a troop), then I would not expect this to be worked out in an easy, simple manner. You should begin looking at other troops very soon, and you should expect that changing troops will likely be the best option for your son. If you end up looking for a new troop, I have found the information presented here to be particularly useful, as a general guideline. http://usscouts.org/cubscouts/goodtroop.asp Link to post Share on other sites
mmhardy 10 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Life is short...your son's time as a youth is even shorter. Confront the SM directly. Tell him that YOUR the final authority over your sons activites. Period...end of discussion. Ask when he will be scheduling your sons SM conference. If there is no commitment hand him this print out of this thread then tell him to have a check for any money in your sons account ready and your sons advancement records in order so he can hit the ground running with his new troop. Do this in front of God and Country. Just like this Jerk did with the 7 boys. That troop sounds toxic...no reason to put up with it. Link to post Share on other sites
Kudu 186 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 SeaGull, My advice is the most pragmatic and practical, precisely because it IS over-the-top! Rather than all this psychological mush, frame the issue in purely practical terms: Your son downloaded and memorized the Troop Leadership Training (TLT) PowerPoint Presentation (PPP) from the course that he missed. That gives everyone a chance to save face. If he has a flair for the dramatic, have him propose a game show contest in which he pits himself against the ENTIRE Troop, answering questions from the TLT PPP. NONE of the Scouts who attended TLT will still remember any of that stuff three weeks later, because it has absolutely NO value to any REAL boy. Kudu Link to post Share on other sites
OldGreyEagle 5 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 SeaGull99, I apologize for some of the behavior being displayed here You came seeking information for a specific issue and I hope you find aid, distractions notwithstanding Link to post Share on other sites
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