Denied rank advance. to Star...any advice

[evmori 11]

I commend you and your son for pushing ahead & not asking for any modifications. My son is also disabled & we never asked for any modifications for him & he earned his Eagle.

 

I hate to say this, but it sounds like this SM doesn't want a disabled Scout to advance. Using this troop training as a reason to deny a SM conference is nothing more than an excuse. And it sounds like the CC has a nit to pick, too.

 

I agree with Twocubdad. This guy is bad news! It might be time to get your COR involved.

[Crew21_Adv 25]

SeaGull99,

 

Aloha!

 

You asked a few good questions...

 

Most of our fellow forum members have given you great answers. The Scoutmaster cannot deny rank, that is a Board of Reviews decision. Whom can you file a complaint with, the Troop Committee and the Chartering Organization. They are very willing to listen to both sides, and provide their best judgment.

 

Similar to you asking for advice. Not all Scoutmasters are perfect. Maybe he or she may need advice from fellow Scoutmasters and Commissioners as well. Maybe they are justified in their reasoning, or maybe not and they could be doing Scouts a disservice.

 

Similar to small claims court, rather than placing blame on the Scoutmaster or your son. You may have to mutually ask the advice of a third party to act as a mediator., to determine if your son is ready for a Scoutmaster conference or not yet ready for a conference.

 

Regarding your third question.

 

Who wants the flu? I would support you that the parents of Scouts would not desire their son to become ill. But equally, I sometimes patronize Blockbuster or other video rental outlets. I doubt the customers would want to become ill either. I would call going to the Doctors office an errand. I might even stretch it by seeing you at a Longs Drug store. But, sorry, going to a movie rental outlet with a child suffering from the flu, and the cable box is not working; I would not call that an errand, that was for pleasure.

 

Your son's Scoutmaster was disappointed with your son lack of attendance at TLT. But, it is speculation that the Scoutmaster will deny his Scoutmaster Conference until after your next Court of Honor.

 

Could be that is his intention, or possibly not. The Scoutmaster may not be available. Scoutmaster conferences usually grow in time, along with the Scout. When they were joining as an 11 year old, they are discussing the importance of Scouting, the Law and the Oath. Most 11 year old brains have a difficult time digesting what all this means so a Scoutmaster Conference may be 1-2 minutes for an 11 y/o. But by the Star rank, the previous brief conversations may have lengthened to become 15-20 minutes of heartfelt discussions.

 

I know our Scouts are told to approach the Scoutmaster and establish a time. Either they ask early during the troop meeting for an appointment on another evening that week; or contacting the Scoutmaster and asking for a conference during the troop meeting.

 

No Scoutmaster would want to inhibit a Scouts advancement that is ready. Most all Scoutmasters are very patient, but they too can have busy schedules like us, or limited time on their daily planner. They too may have to schedule a Scoutmaster Conference for a later time. Some Scouts wait until after the meeting, till late in the evening while everyone is heading to their homes or vehicles to ask the Scoutmaster for a 15-20 minute conference.

 

I don't know what your son has asked his Scoutmaster, but maybe he should ask, "exactly when can I soon schedule a Scoutmaster Conference?" Rather than possibly asking "Can I have a Scoutmaster conference right now?" Especially if it is an inconvenient time (i.e. dark parking lot with mom and dad sitting across the parking lot in their car, just immediately after a meeting).

 

Another few questions that the Scout may ask "What do I need to do, to prepare for the Scoutmaster conference?" or "What should I wear to the conference?"

 

Hopefully, if the Scoutmaster is stubborn, he(or she) will lighten up and assist your son. Equally if your son needs to demonstrate more Scout spirit, then he should read the beginning chapters of his Boy Scout handbook and prepares himself for Star Scout.

 

Good Luck to your son, hopefully he works hard as Patrol Leader and earns Star very soon!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[BrentAllen 10]

Kudu writes: "Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review are designed to keep a Boy Scout Troop adult-run. They are a flat rejection of Baden-Powell."

 

Come on, now, Kudu. All three of these are in the holy grail of Scouting (3rd Edition, SM Handbook). Are you saying Green Bar Bill's SM HB is a flat-out rejection of Baden-Powell??

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Brent, I admonished Kudu to stay on topic, I now do the same to you. Perhaps another thread is indicated?

[fleetfootedfox 10]

Thanks for the additional details. It sounds like the SM is adding requirements, which is a no-no, but we don't know what's going on in his head. It could be that he just does not believe your son is ready for star rank based on more subjective criteria, so he is trying to put it off. I think it is important that your son finds out exactly what is expected of him, if he can make up the training, or the SM is going to force him to wait many more months with no real idea of what he's supposed to be doing to achieve the rank. Unfortunately, if he just won't give any answer, it may be time to look for another troop.

[BrentAllen 10]

Thanks, OGE. I just wanted to get my admonishment over with early today.

 

As with most cases, we are only hearing one side of the story. Some of the conclusions reached here with limited information are pretty amazing.

 

The SM is in charge of advancement in the Troop. If he feels SeaGull99's son isn't ready to advance, I would have to defer to him. I wouldn't handle the situation as this SM appears to be doing, but it is his call.

 

Kudu won't care for this WB 21st Century lesson, but what are the first three rules of conflict resolution?

1. Involvement

2. Involvement

3. Involvement

 

If it were my son, I would advise him to approach the SM after a Troop meeting and have a talk. I would advise my son to ask the SM if he is upset with him, if has done something wrong. To tell the SM that he feels like he is being treated as if he has done something wrong. If so, what can he do to make things right.

 

Going over the SM's head will likely make things worse, in the long run.

 

Finally, if the SM is as bad as SeaGull says (scolding the boys in front of the Troop), I would find another Troop.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

[Beavah 205]

With all due respect, your opinion is respected, but not revered.

 

Thank goodness! Reverence belongs to da Great Scoutmaster alone. I'm just an old furry critter with a cute tail.

 

BrentAllen offers sage advice and perspective worth considerin'. I think he's on the mark.

 

It's so hard for us to read this stuff from afar, eh? It sounds like a whoppin' 7 lads missed TLT. That's gotta be more than half the group. I can imagine a Scoutmaster who spends a lot of time settin' up a great TLT program in October, who then has to postpone it because a bunch of kids can't come because of band & sports, who finally finds a good time everybody can commit to in early January, who then spends days of his own time settin' things up, spending troop money and his own out-of-pocket money...

 

only to have 2/3 of his youth leaders who promised to be there turn out to be no-shows. And then discover they were all at parties or rentin' videos or whatnot.

 

Now, should he call those lads out in public? Nah, I think yeh still approach 'em in private. Should he just fire 'em and ban 'em from positions of responsibility for a year? BSA now says yes, and I know a few troops tryin' that out, but I'm not fond of that "fire 'em" approach. Is it a matter of Scout Spirit for rank advancement? Yah, I think so. And Scout Spirit for life advancement. Is it somethin' that's maybe got his goat right now so that he wants to cool off before he addresses the matter further? Could be.

 

I think one of da things that some parents don't appreciate is how huge a commitment of time and personal cash bein' a Scoutmaster is. And how hard it is after makin' that commitment to have boys or families blow yeh off (and then turn around and complain that they still "deserve" thus and so from the volunteer). I reckon that whatever parents are willing to put up with from the paid, professional coach or band director they should be willin' to put up with double from the volunteer SM, just out of respect and courtesy.

 

And, on the flipside, a Scoutmaster who finds himself gettin' too hot and bothered about the fact that kids are sometimes clueless or discourteous, or that families are the same, needs to take some time off. That's just part of the game we play, eh? The boys are learnin', and so are the parents, and so are we. If yeh can't go blow steam with some fellow adults and then come back and still love spendin' time with kids, yeh should find another hobby. Our example of courtesy matters even more than the boys' and parents'.

 

I get the sense that there's fault all around here, as well as some prior "history." Both sides should stand down for a bit. Spring is commin', and perhaps with it will come some new perspectives.

 

Beavah

 

[gwd-scouter 11]

Naturally, we are only reading one side of this story. SeaGull, I'm not suggesting that what you posted isn't an accurate depiction of the events involving your son. I'm just coming at it from a SM's point of view.

 

As a Scoutmaster I can only add that I generally do not respond to specific complaints in emails received from parents.Emails are too easy a format in which parents can vent and also, as we see here on the forum, the intent behind what is written can be misunderstood. It has only happened a couple of times, but when I have had a parent complaining in an email, my response is very short - I would love to talk to you about your concerns. Please plan to meet with me before or after next week's Scout meeting.

 

Also, while I am not condoning the SM in this instance for dressing down the boys that missed the training, I will say that I believe parents have no idea how frustrating it is to plan an event such as training and then have the boys fail to show up. Sure, a parent can say to him/herself, there will be a lot of boys there - they won't miss my son. Unfortunately, as in your case, there were a bunch of parents that may have had that attitude.

 

Yes, your son was sick, I get that. But, you say that seven of the boys didn't show up for the training. That's a lot of Scouts missing at the same time. Did they all have a good excuse or did they just blow it off? Maybe they all called to say they weren't coming, maybe none called. Try to understand the SM's frustration. Again, based on your post, I don't think he handled things appropriately. I will say that one of the biggest challenges I face as a leader is to get parents to have a sense of commitment about their son's involvement in the Troop. We are all busy people and stuff comes up, guys get sick. I'm not suggesting this fits your case, but we leaders certainly get irritated by those that feel blowing off Scouts is OK without regard to the time and energy put forth by the volunteers.

 

Take some time to cool off. Let the Scoutmaster cool off. Then, in a non confrontational way, ask him for a time that you and your son can sit down for a friendly discussion.

 

 

[SeaGull99 10]

I know you guys keep saying you are only hearing my side of the story, and that is fine since it is 100% true. But, stew on this for a minute: Last night the troop had a planning meeting for a camp out scheduled for this weekend. We weren't there because my son is not attending this camp out, but the SM started throwing.....yes, THROWING equipment and yelling at boys like a crazed man simply because the boys that were packing the trailer weren't doing it correctly (or to his standards). It seems too many other parents have had similar complaints to mine and all seven of the boys' parents that he publicly scolded have launched complaints that went unanswered as well. Needless to say, the SM has been asked to take a break from this camp out and possibly the troop (all the Asst SMs contacted all of the parents and boys by phone last night). As for us, we have decided to move on and have already started the process of transitioning into a different troop.

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

SeaGull,

I am sorry to hear that your son (and you) have had such an experience with scouting. While I commend you for your decision to find a different troop, I know it is not an easy task. I wish you the best in finding a good unit. Please keep us informed of your progress, and work to keep your son's head and sprits up.

[mmhardy 10]

Wow...sounds like the cheese slipped off the cracker. I commend you for your decision to move on. Like I said, life is short and the time being a youth is even shorter. You dont have to put up with the drama of a dysfunctional troop. Keep us up to date on the next steps this poor SM and unit is taking. Sound like both need some help.

 

BTW please pass along congratulations on your son making Star!

 

[Twocubdad 665]

Good luck to you and your son. I hope you have a soft landing at a welcoming and well-run troop and that the rest of his Scout career is a positive one.

 

One bit of advice as you make the transition: pay attention to how your son is credited for his work toward Star. A new troop could reasonably question whether or not he has completed the requirements and may not be willing to let him pick up at SMC or BoR. If one of the current ASMs is sympathetic to the situation, perhaps he could sign-off on he requirements or at least provide a letter as to the situation. It may be that the council advancement committee needs to wave their magic wand over the situation so that he gets a clean start toward Life. There are several ways to handle this, but it is something you need to be mindful of.

[tmazz 10]

I agree that this situation sounds toxic, but the situation may change now that the SM has lost it and been asked to take a little time off. The quickest and easiest thing is to just pack up and find another troop. But is it really the best answer. At times like this we as parents (and/or adult leaders) must take a step back and remind ourselves that the key word in Boy Scouts is BOY. While leaving may make you as a parent feel better about the situation how does your son feel about it? (This may take some real interrogation as boy of that age will often parrot back to us what they have heard us say to others because they think it is the "right" answer and not tell us how they really feel.) You are upset about the rank (and rightfully so from what I have read), but your son may be more upset about leaving his friends behind than he would be about not getting the badge for a few more months. There is no right and wrong answer here - it is all about how he feels and his preferences. I can tell you that I have two boys, the older an Eagle w/ 7 palms and the younger a Life Scout who is about 4 hour away from completing his Eagle project, and if I asked the two of them what they would do in this situation I would get two completely different answers. And I as a parent would act differently for each of them. Scouting bonds and friendships are things that very often last a lifetime. In my 30 years of involvement with youth sports and scouting I can tell you that left to their own devices many if not most kids would without question choose not to leave and give up the relationships they have formed over a card and a patch. I was in a similar situation with one of my boys and came home from a meeting all tight and bothered over something that was done that I felt was wrong and disrespectful towards my son. After venting about it to my wife we realized that I was way more upset about it than he was I was insulted that they didn't treat him better out of respect for me than he was over the whole thing. What really put everything into perspective was when my son overhead me venting and said "Dad, get over it, it's not your problem". (Out of the mouths of babes.......) What you really have here is a huge moment of truth with your son. You have the opportunity to sit down with him talk this out and make him a real part of the decision process. What a wonderful parent child bonding experience it would be to have that discussion and act on his opinions accordingly, to show him not by words but by actions that his opinion and feelings were an valued and valuable part of the families decision making process. (While this would be a great experience for any young teenager, it would be even more so for a handicapped child, who is usually in even less control of his life and surrounding than other kids his age.)

I am not advocating that you make a decision one way or another, just that youo involve your son in whatever decision you do make. While we as adults are mostly drive by outcomes and results children are all about process. I had one former scout who stayed with the troop rarely missing a meeting right up to his 18th birthday and never made it past 2nd class. While this drove us crazy as adults he would simply say "I don't care about the patches, I'm just having fun doing all this stuff". He was one of the happiest scouts we ever had. As long as you are keeping the boy happy your decision can't be too far off the mark.

 

One last thing, I saw a lot of people telling you to speak to your District Advancement Chair. I think they are really jumping ahead of the game on that one. There are a couple of places I would stop before that. The first person I would lean on was my Unit Commissioner or even the District Commissioner. The purpose of the Commissioner service is to lend a helping hand and guide individual units over the bumps in their day to day operations. Unit Commissioners are usually other seasoned or former scouters who would be able to speak with the SM on your behalf as an impartial friendly third party. This might have solved to problem right off the bat. The other person I would look to is your Chartering Organization Rep. The COR is the eyes and Ears of your Chartering Organization and from and is responsible for keeping them informed of what is going on with the troop. The COR is the only one who can actually "pull rank" on the Committee Chair. (If the SMs behavior is truly abusive and detrimental to the troop the COR should be told of this because the Chartering Organization is ultimately responsible for the actions of the troop and its leaders.

 

Good luck and I hope things work out for you.

 

[IM_Kathy 32]

first off - totally off topic from scouts, but speaking from the platform of being a former store worker...... if you keep your son home to keep him from spreading the flu to the rest of the scouts, then why take him to the video store with you? I can understand the pharmacy... although with both as a boy old enough to be in Boy Scouts and going for Star Rank - he should be old enough to sit in the car while you run such errand.

 

now, back to scouts... I have a question... when your son missed the training did he go to SM and ask him that since he missed the training class what he needed to do to make that up (something he could read or sit down with someone and go over training info)? To me that would be what a responsible scout and one moving up the upper ranks should be responsible in doing. Now I'm assuming he didn't do that, otherwise this wouldn't still be a problem... so I would ask to sit down with the SM and your son and talk about what your son now needs to do in order to be allowed "in his mind" to have a SMC. If that seems reaonable then do it, if it does not and the SM doesn't want to change his stance on that then I would go up the chain of command with council.

[SeaGull99 10]

Kathy: This is Hawaii, we were on our moped, so staying "in the car" wouldn't have been any better for my son than sitting on the moped. The video store is next door to the pharmacy. We went in the video store while the prescriptions were being filled.

 

As I stated before, my son tried to speak to the SM about the training and was told that it would be discussed later. My son and a few of the other boys asked about a make-up training and the SM just stared them down and walked away. It is all irrelevant now anyway. We have left the troop.