Help Eagle advancement DENIAL

[ketchome]

I have been the Eagle Advancement Chair for our District for seveal years and have not denied the advancment to Eagle for any scout up to this point. I may be facing that issue this week. I want to be prepaired if the alogations that I have heard turn out to be true.

At a recent mulit-unit outing the boy in question is supposed to have shoplifted an item and was caught. He wrote a letter of apology and the matter was "hushed." I have also heard but not confirmed that at a previous scout camp a similar situation occured. I am working on confirmation. The boy is 18.

Looking for advice.

One, if only the shoplifitng incident took place, are there suggestions for the boy to redeme himself before the two month period for a followup BOR expires?

Two, if both incidents took place, does this show a pattern and should the Eagle advancement be denied without a chance for redemtion?

Looking for imput!!

[scoutldr]

This illustrates one of the pitfalls of waiting until a scout is near 18 before finishing. Since ALL requirements except the BOR MUST be completed before the 18th birthday, there is no time to go back and re-do requirements, including "Scout Spirit". My opinion is, it's in the hands of the BOR now. The decision must be unanimous. If he doesn't like the outcome, he can appeal the decision. Even if it were allowed, not sure what he could do in a 60 day period to change their minds.

[ketchome]

What about x-number of hours of community service?

By the way the shiplifting issue has been confirmed at this point, he was 17 1/2 when the incident took place.

[Lisabob]

I hate to sound harsh or anything, but I can't see how it makes sense to say, in one breath, "here's your Eagle" and in the next, "but you have to do X hours of community service to atone for your behavior." Either the boy is ready to earn Eagle at this stage or he is not. Being 18, he has run out of time to further demonstrate his character in order to qualify.

 

Make your decision based on the facts in hand, not based on the notion that you can somehow balance out poor behavior with a punitive sentence. Doing that sounds like you are attempting to assuage your conscience.

 

 

[evmori]

I would say "Sorry, but you are obviously not living the Scout Oath & Law in your everyday life. I cannot vote for you to be an Eagle." I would also detail why in writing, give one to the Scout & also send one registered mail to his house. This might get overturned by National but at least you know it wasn't you who advanced this Scout knowing what you know.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[acco40]

One of the questions I ask the scouts during our Scoutmaster Conference is if I, as Scoutmaster should expect more from the Scouts for the "show Scout Spirit" requirement as they advance in rank. Most say yes but in my opinion, the requirement is the same for each rank so why do we expect more for Eagle or from another point of view, expect less for 2nd Class for example?

 

If you are a EBOR member who doesn not really know the Scout consider the Scoutmaster - by signing the Eagle application the SM is recommending this Scout for Eagle. Consider the letters of recommendation. These individuals should be giving their honest opinion on the qualifications of the Scout. Why should a EBOR member who doesn't know the Scout as well as the other folks above make a different deduction?

[Basementdweller]

Two confirmed shop lifting incidents.

 

You have to ask an opinion????

 

The answer is heck no, no way a boy who wishes to be an eagle should steal. It is absurd, shop lifting, must have been from the camp store????

 

It is as silly as the boy smoking weed on a camp out not being punished.

 

I would definitely ask about it. And base my decision on what he says, but going in to the

BOR I would be leaning NO. He would really have to dance around the issue like Johnny Cochran for me to change my mind.

 

I wonder what the SM was thinking to sign the application, I think the DE should probably pay him a visit or some one have a chat with him at the round table.

[scoutldr]

What amazes me is that a scout can commit crimes and still think they deserve the Eagle. When did we (parents) stop teaching shame and humility? I'm sick of the pervasive attitude that "I'm special, you need to give me what I want regardless of what the rules say."

[John-in-KC]

Normally I ask unit serving folks to contact folks like you.

 

In your case, I think it's time for a friendly cup of coffee with the Council Advancement Chair. it sounds like you've decided to drop this hot potato in his lap.

 

"Live the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life." This young man may well have blown through Trustworthy and Obedient. Much will depend on if the matters are alleged or proven. If proven... I'd be making sure the young man knows his appeal rights, for I'd have little to do with advancing him.

 

Document your decision, forward it to the Council Advancement Chair.

 

Let us know what happens.

[Gold Winger]

" These individuals should be giving their honest opinion on the qualifications of the Scout. Why should a EBOR member who doesn't know the Scout as well as the other folks above make a different deduction?"

 

They should be but often they aren't. They don't want to deal with the grief that would come from an honest opinion.

 

" When did we (parents) stop teaching shame and humility?"

 

I think that it started in the 70s when we started letting daycare providers and the government tell us how to raise our kids because moms wanted to get out of the house and work.

[nldscout]

You say this has been confirmed. Confirmed by whom? and who is this person confirming this? what is his position reletive to the alleged incident(s)?

 

I think your treading on shaky ground unless you have written proof that this scout commited these acts. Remeber, you would be accusing hom of committing a crime, so tread lightly.

[evmori]

I think your treading on shaky ground unless you have written proof that this scout commited these acts. Remeber, you would be accusing hom of committing a crime, so tread lightly.

 

If I read correctly, the Scout was 17 1/2 or younger when these crimes were committed. That would make him a juvenile & his record would not be available to the BOR. If he was caught, that is confirmed.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[John-in-KC]

Since nldscout is the resident Judge...

 

I'd sure like to hear from the resident Advocate...

 

There's a lot we don't know here.

 

- What is proven, alleged, and just plain rumor?

 

- Of anything alleged, what's being dealt with by the justice system? Further, what is juvenile, and off the books, and what if anything was dealt with as an adult, and is on the books?

 

- What, if any, was dealt with directly between the store and the young man, with agreement "this will never be mentioned again?"

 

I think I'm going to change my response to ketchome... Not only should he talk with the Council Advancement Chair, but also the District Commissioner and the Council's General Counsel. Do the right things, including denial if appropriate, but do them in an orderly way that others can easily understand.

 

I do commend ketchome for asking and thinking ahead in advance.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[nldscout]

I can only speak of the laws in NY. A juvenile is someone under 16, and those records are sealed. 16 till your 19th birthday, you are a possible youthful offender, and depending on the offense it may or maynot be sealed, there is a complicated set of rules that we in the courts have to follow.

 

But it sounds to me like this was handled offline, not in the judicial system. Thats why I asked about where this confirmation is coming from, and is it a trustworthy source.

 

Unless you are 100% sure this is reliable information, I would not be asking or accusing this scout. Maybe the route is to first ask the SM what he knows, he probably has the most insight into the alledged incident.

 

 

[NeilLup]

I'm sorry, Ed, but stating that if he was caught, that is confirmed is congruent with "guilty until proven innocent." That is not the American jurisprudence system.

 

However, there is a catch 22 with the juvenile justice system in that the records needed to prove his innocence are sealed.

 

However, we aren't talking about a legal procedure, we are talking about a great honor -- Eagle Scout. The Scout needs to prove that he is worthy, not the other way around and the committee can well take the position that it is the Scout's obligation to rebut reasonably reliable innuendo and information.

 

So here is a possibility. Not necessarily a good possibility, but a possibility.

 

Tell the Scout about the rumors and indicate that you would like to rebut those rumors once and for all. Ask him and his parents to waive the confidentiality of his juvenile records to document and prove that there are no shoplifting arrests or convictions on his record. If need be, tell him that the records will be reviewed by an confidential objective third party like an attorney who will simply state one of two things -- there is no indication that the reports are reliable or it cannot be stated that there is no indication that the reports are reliable.

 

Tell the Scout that he can, of course, decline to provide this confirmation of the unreliability of the rumors. However, in that case, the SM and Board of Review will have to assume that there is some reliability to the rumors and will take that into account. If he or his parents make some noise like "innocent until proven guilty" you state that this isn't a legal procedure, it is a review for the great honor of being an Eagle Scout. For everybody's benefit, you wish to be able to eliminate any rumors clearly and cleanly. The BOR is forced to at least consider reports in the community and wants to do what can be done to address reports and other negative information. If they have some other way to address it, that's great, but it needs to be pro-active confirmation. Just stating that there is no confirmed negative information is not sufficient.