yes or no?

[Lisabob]

Recently I sat on a board of review for a scout seeking Life rank. The scout was ultimately successful, though it was a decision that was not easy for the adults to agree upon. Mumbled one word answers accompanied with shrugs and blank looks, very little reflection, inability to provide specific examples of scout spirit, how he puts the scout law into action, difficulty articulating or apparently grasping how he is a role model (as a scout in a visible and important POR in the troop) to other scouts, etc.. This scout appears to view advancement as just a bunch of hoops to jump through with little or no meaning to them. In short, very "teen" behavior and not terribly satisfying. And the board let him know politely but firmly, with specific examples, that such behavior needed to change if he expected to succeed in attaining the rank of Eagle. In honesty the outcome of the board was right on the edge of "delaying" rank advancement and maybe that would've been better, I'm still not sure.

 

However, and here's my question, among the adults, a couple of BOR members indicated that even though they wouldn't like it, even such behavior as outlined above would not be grounds for delaying a scout at an Eagle board because the district would not support such an action. This of course was not communicated to the scout. But as many of you have more experience than I do in this matter, do you think that this is a perhaps unpleasant, but also realistic assessment?

 

Also I'd appreciate input into how you encourage scouts who have the above view and corresponding attitude to rethink matters? This young man is focused on "getting" Eagle in as little time as possible so he can be "done" with scouting (he's been heard making comments to that effect to other scouts, in particular to other recent Eagles who have chosen to remain active with the troop after earning their rank).

I realize it isn't unheard of - but most of the boys in our troop who do advance to Life and Eagle seem to be a lot more engaged than this young man is.

 

Your candid thoughts on whether my fellow BOR members who are of the opinion that this sort of behavior would still pass muster in an Eagle BOR and whether/how we might help this young man get a fresh outlook would be appreciated.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Some of us have answered this in other threads in the past. If he has met the requirements, he should get the award or rank. This is a problem that you have noticed but it is HIS problem. If he can't or refuses to see it, and if you have explained your view, then you have done as much as you can do. Like I tell my students, I lead them to water. Sometimes they drink.

If he attains eagle by 'working the angles' and doing the absolute minimum in the minimum time, then that will constitute the level of personal satisfaction and sense of value that he will have toward himself for the rest of his life.

Another boy who has worked hard to attain the rank or who has gone the extra mile to excel in his work will have a different personal knowledge of what his award represents...for the rest of HIS life.

The path that I think you describe for this boy is one that will lead him to a life of the 'glass half empty'. He will get exactly what he has chosen and worked for. You can only communicate to him the alternatives.

[Venividi]

Lisabob,

I see four interrelated items here:

1) what is best to help the individual scout

2) impact on the troop as a whole

3) the integrity of the adults to stand up for what they believe

4) perceptions/reality of what district/council/national will allow.

 

Addressing #4 first: Don't worry what district/council/national would do. The unit scouters know the needs of their unit and individuals in their unit better than anyone else. You have responsibility for the individuals. The higher levels have different objectives because their responsiblity if for a larger program, and they do not know the individual. If it comes to appeal, tell the scout how to do it, and let it happen. It is no reflection on your program.

 

#1): I had a similar situation when I was a scoutmaster - this is a SM perspective, but I think their are parallels to your BOR committee. When I was a new SM, I had a scout soley focused on advancing to Eagle. He saw scout spirit as a "gimme", and the merit badges and other requirements as the hoops to jump through. After SM conferences for first class and star, I discussed with him what I wanted him to work on with respect to improving scout spirit; things like helping his patrol, etc. He did not change - he had no incentive for him to change because he was getting what he wanted - rank advancement.

 

#2) Impact on the rest of the troop. At SM conferences with other scouts, one of them told me they thought advancement was a joke because the least scout-like individual was advancing faster than anyone else. This confirmed something I had seen when rank advancements were annouced. Other scouts would get real applause; for this one there would be a hesitation, and then some polite applause. My interpretation: the scouts knew what was going on - They saw advancement as an adult controlled game over which they had no control, and thereby discounted the value of the advancement method. It also became a race to the bottom: why would other scouts put effort into doing their best at scouting when the adults obviously put no value on it, as evidenced by their advancment of scouts that put no effort into their scouting responsibilities.

 

#3) If you don't think that a scout is ready to advance, then don't approve the advancement. Back to my example: the father of my troublesome scout was the troop's advancement chair. As I was a new SM, he gave me the advice that sometimes you have to grit your teeth and advance scouts that you don't think deserved it. That weighed heavily on me, but I went along with it. It reflected advice seen in the scouting message boards that advancement should not be denied, because national would overturn on appeal anyway. After I got seasoned, I held higher standards for scout spirit. When scouts understood that they would not get the reward of rank advancement without being helpful, fulfilling the responsibilities of their POR, etc., the rest of the troop started putting more effort into them, because they knew it was expected. The troop as a whole got better as a result.

 

What to do: Set up a meeting among the advancement committee and the scoutmaster. Discuss the issues you see with this scout. Explain how the BOR viewed him, including the specific examples you shared with the scout, and get his perspective. You may find that he has the same view, and similar to your BOR, thought he needed to advance him anyway because it was expected, he had completed the correct number of merit badges, and the requisite time in rank. Gain his agreement that he will not send him back for a BOR for the Eagle rank if his scout spirit does not improve to the level that you are expecting. He can then have SM conferences with him as often as necessary to make sure he understands that the scout spirit requirement will no longer be pencil-whipped.

 

I don't know your SM, but speaking from my experience, it would be very helpful to know that the advancement committee supported a meaningful interpretation of scout spirit. Once we were all on the same page of expectations, things improved.

 

How to encourage the scouts that have such a view: my experience says that such encouragement will be ignored if the scout is getting what he wants. Advancement is not a club to be used, but rather an incentive of a golden ring there for his taking when he meets the requirements. If "scout spirit" has become an empty requirement, then the incentive to live up to the ideals of the scout oath and law has been removed.

 

Your last paragraph questioning whether the behavior would still pass muster in a BOR for Eagle. My experience is "yes it will", if the adults do not come together and have meaningful expectations. Don't pass off responsibility of holding to meaningful but achievable expectations for scout spirit to the district. That is a unit responsibility, not a district responsibility.

 

Hope this helps.

Venividi

[Beavah]

Yah, VeniVidi gave a very coherent thoughtful, and spot-on answer, eh? I won't try to recap it, I'll just be more blunt.

 

Just say "No."

 

The core principle in the BSA bylaws and guidelines for the advancement program is that it used for education, and that boys must be held to a standard. If the boy didn't meet your standard, you have an obligation of honor and principle to defer rank advancement until he does. Honor and principle don't cave for real or imagined beliefs about what districts or councils will do.

 

If your son "passed" his math class with a D- (knowing he has all the ability to be an A-B student), would you throw a party, call him up in front of friends, neighbors, and family members for applause, and present him an award? Or would there be "consequences" for your son instead?

 

Do what you know is right.

 

If troops did that on a regular basis for Star and Life, we'd see far fewer forum postings about problematic Eagles, poor youth leadership, and lower membership.

 

[Hunt]

I agree with Venividi and Beavah on this one--this is a question of Scout Spirit. Despite my views on retesting, I don't think a deferral of this boy by the BOR would have been inappropriate. As I quoted in the other thread, the BOR "should attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals." Also, "[a} discussion of the Scout Oath and Law is in keeping with the purpose of the review, to make sure that the candidate recognizes and understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school, and community." While these are pretty general standards, it seems pretty clear to me that the scout in this case doesn't meet them. Now that this scout has achieved Life, the SM will have to be the gatekeeper for the next stage. I wonder whether a boy like this would behave that way at an Eagle BOR, or if he would temporarily get his act together?

[Venividi]

Thanks, Beavah and Hunt.

 

One quibble (or clarifcation) on

>>the SM will have to be the gatekeeper for the next stage

[John-in-KC]

I'll join in with the agreement to venividi and Beavah.

 

BOR is one of the elements of the Adult Association Method. If the young man "will not" communicate clearly, sometimes concisely, sometimes in detail, then maybe there need to be some consequences.

 

I use "will not" v "can not" with malice aforethought. If the young man has genuine learning challenges, then there are other issues involved. That said, the way Lisa wrote her post implied we're talking about the typical 13-14 year old.

 

At the same time, check in with your District Advancement folks, UC, and COR. When Mom and Dad cry foul to the DE, the volunteers are going to be the stuckees to find out why. Keep your unit support chain in the loop!(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[CalicoPenn]

I'm going to softly disagree with Beavah et al on this one. I say softly because I don't disagree with what they're saying, and I'm not disagreeing based on the idea that if he completed the requirements, he gets the rank - I'm disagreeing based on what is being stated in this particular case.

 

I've read through Lisa's post a few times to make sure I didn't miss something, but it doesn't seem like I am - I'm not seeing anything here that states this Scout lacks Scout Spirit, or isn't following the Scout Law or Oath, or isn't performing his responsibilities. What I come away with after reading the post is that this lad isn't articulating his answers very well which is giving the BOR a poor impression of him.

 

Is this lad a good Scout in practice but is just having a hard time explaining this in a BOR? If so, then denying rank isn't the answer (after all, there is no point of the Scout Law that reads "A Scout is Confident"). The answer is in coaching the lad to be able to face a BOR and be able to answer questions. The BOR can be seen as practice for those important job interviews in the future. I wouldn't expect a 13 or 14 year old boy to be an interview pro.

 

Unless I'm way off base in my reading of the situation, what this boy may need is more "face time" with adults in the adult association roles so he becomes more comfortable talking to adults about what he's thinking, accomplishing, etc. These are the challenging lads for BOR's which is why BOR's should, in my opinion, try to have someone who's done a few and has become skilled at gently drawing answers out of the lads. It could very well be that this lad doesn't view advancement as a series of hoops to jump through but does view the BOR as the most unpleasant part of the process. If he is viewing the BOR with dread, then his performance at the BOR will match his personal expectations.

 

If the lad does go for his Eagle, I'd suggest that the Scoutmaster work with him on his interviewing skills as part of the preparation for the BOR and for the Advancement Chairman to try to identify someone with the patience and skills needed to draw out articulate answers from teenagers to sit on the BOR. I see the objective for the adults to reach here as setting the boy up for success and not failure.

 

CalicoPenn

[packsaddle]

I guess I tend to side with the boy when it comes to gray areas. In this case the gray area is what we don't know. Lisabob says that he "appears" to have the undesirable qualities that reflect, in our minds, poorly on his scout spirit. Friends, his answers at the BOR are not the basis for judgment of his scout spirit. The answer to THAT question should be well-known before the BOR.

If he has met the minimum requirements, all other factors being equal, he must be advanced. As John-in-KC indicates, the appeal will be successful if all the BOR has for evidence is his appearance.

[Venividi]

CalicoPenn,

 

I agree with you when looking just at the point of a scout not being able to express himself at a BOR. I also read Lisabob's post several times before responding, and focused more on the points of the comments he had made to other scouts about getting Eagle, and her view of the scout's general attitude. I do see those as elements of scout spirit.

Also, I considered the degree of insight and levelheadedness that I have seen in Lisabob's typical postings - I don't think that she would have been concerned, nor brought up this issue here, if she thought for one tiny bit that the scout's problem was one of having difficulty with articulation in front of a BOR. The broad impression that I took was that the scout's inarticulation was due to his being uncomfortable with what he had achieved as a star scout, rather than due to being good in practice but not comfortable with expressing himself. Granted, I could be drawing the wrong picture in my mind.

 

I also don't like to focus on "what should have been done". The scout is a life scout, end of story. I hope my posting reflected more on looking at lessons learned, and what should be done to improve as scouters in the future. For this particular scout, if my impression of him from Lisabob's posting is correct, he will likely need a large amount of time with explanation of firm expectations; and be provided with lots of feedback and mentoring between now and an Eagle SM conference and subsequent Eagle BOR. That would help make him an Eagle on the inside, where it counts. If your impression is the more accurate one, then yes, I agree with you that face time in front of groups will be beneficial to him, and it is an easier problem all around.

[Beavah]

Yah, Calico's is a good point.

 

I guess I'm expecting that the coaching on how to talk with adults and express respect and a good attitude happen at an earlier stage. Progressively, through T-2-1 and especially through the demands and support in doing a POR for Star and Life. Four prior boards, 5 (hopefully more) SM conferences, 10 months having to work collaboratively with adults and youth leaders. By the time they're up for Life, it seems like (barring specific learning/emotional handicaps) that hurdle shouldn't be too big, eh? But that's an assumption on my part. Yeh gotta know the kid to decide.

 

I tell units most of the time that holdin' a kid on Eagle because of unresolved long-term behaviors isn't fair, eh? That was their problem to help the boy start to address before he earned Star or Life, if not earlier. And Eagle becomes too emotionally charged for kids, parents, and bureaucrats. To use the scoutin' program well to help kids grow, yeh gotta be consistent all the way along.

[Lisabob]

Thanks for your input so far. As I have gotten to know the program and the boys and other adults in the troop over the last two years, I admit that the BOR is something I've struggled with. To be honest, this scout is viewed by most of the adults as not being a very good example to others. Yet, he was chosen by his peers to hold an important position of responsibility. Thereafter there have been some honesty issues (scamming his way into a couple of signed blue cards at summer camp for eagle-required mbs he never worked on, for example) and some questions about sloppiness on the job too, although perhaps that can be attributed to the learning curve being fairly steep. And I admit I'm disappointed in the fact that the SM hasn't held up the bar a little higher on scout spirit and leadership and use of the adult association method to guide scouts. But that's a broader problem within the troop regarding how the SM is doing his job and it is neither my perception alone, nor something that is going to get "fixed" this month.

 

As for the BOR itself, I've sat on a bunch of T-2-1 boards and four Eagle BORs in the last two years. The T-2-1 boards have been fairly perfunctory which I feel is appropriate. The Eagle boards have been pretty meaty affairs, again appropriate. I was taken by surprise that the board in this case resembled a T-2-1 board far more than an Eagle board in tone though. I don't know if that's common but I think probably not. I will say that the types of questions I asked were more similar to the types of questions a boy might get at an Eagle board. Not that I expected the same level of maturity in his answers as I might from an Eagle candidate, but I just thought that the EBOR shouldn't be the first time he's expected to really give thoughtful answers.

 

This scout is 15-16 and not 13-14, which I think makes some difference as well.

 

Reflecting on the process by which this scout was awarded his Life rank, I think I may add a question to my repertoire of BOR questions for the future, esp for 1st Cl, Star, and Life ranks. That is, "What does it mean to you to earn this rank?" Trying to think about ways to encourage boys to think of their ranks as more than simply hoops to jump through toward Eagle. Along those lines I was also frustrated that the SM announced to the troop that Scout A had successfully completed his Life BOR, which as we all know means another Eagle project and Eagle BOR is coming up soon. Again as if Life rank itself weren't a real meaningful accomplishment.

 

Does that question seem appropriate to you? If my perceptions of how a board for Star/Life in particular should go are off base I would want to know.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Lisabob, that part about 'scamming his way' to some MBs...do you know this for a fact? How was this problem addressed both to the boy and to the counselor? Was it resolved, or was it 'winked at'?

[evmori]

I would agree with others to an extent.

 

Did the BOR ask open-ended questions?

 

Was the Scout asked to expand on his answers?

 

Did he know the Oath & Law?

 

When we do BOR's in my unit (I am the Advancement Chair), we always start with the Scout leading the board in the Pledge, Oath & Law then we proceed with the board. If a Life Scout couldn't lead us in these, the BOR would then let the Scout know he will be delayed in rank advancement do to not knowing the basics he should know. He would be told to study these & let us know when he is ready to proceed with another BOR.

 

I'm not sure I understand the term "scamming his way"????

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[John-in-KC]

Lisa,

 

Open ended questions are always appropriate.

 

I share the frustration about your SMs comment about Eagle projects. He should be proud another Scout has gotten fairly far on the trail.

 

Keep plugging