dkurtenbach

Expected/Required Attendance: Yep, lots of sports and activities have required attendance. But the way I play the Scouting game, and the way I want boys to play the Scouting game, is this -- it is a hobby; it is not school; I only want people there who want to be there because it is fun; kids have enough pressures and requirements on them, and Scouting should not be one of them. Original Question: If I understand the original question correctly, thriftyscout is looking at campouts with 5-8 boys per patrol in attendance as a goal, and wants to "reverse engineer" such campouts to figur

The only thing I'd add to the advice already given is this: if (as in many Packs) it is a combined AOL/Crossover ceremony, or they directly follow each other without a break, just include the future non-Boy Scout in the ceremony. No big deal. What really matters is not to embarrass or single out the lad. I was at a combined ceremony once where the non-crossing Scout just went and sat back down in his front-row seat surrounded by the empty chairs of the other guys. Bad. My suggestion for all is to stop using the term "Crossover" and start calling it a "Graduation" or some other term,

The patrol method works because (1) it gives boys real, meaningful, challenging but attainable tasks to accomplish (2) as a team (3) within a safe and healthy environment (4) without being able to exploit and manipulate adults into doing the work for them, as boys are so good at doing at home. OneTimeRunner wrote: "Let's see if you agree or disagree with these statements: When the patrol method is working well, the only skill that the adult leaders should be teaching on a regular basis is leadership. or: In order to implement the Patrol Method, leadership is the ONLY skill we need to be

Stosh wrote: "As long as adults treat their boys like children that can't figure things out for themselves, they will stay that way. Why learn when some adult is going to teach you. Why problem solve anything, some adult is going to tell you what to do eventually. Why take initiative on any priorities, the adults will tell you what you need to do next. Don't worry about screwing up, some adult will have a backup plan anyway and they'll take over. If adults keep doing these kinds of things there boys will NEVER step up and take over!" In current BSA "EDGE" terminology (Explain, Demonstrat

It is important that Scouts in positions of responsibility be sufficiently trained in what they are supposed to do before we expect them to do it. Dan K.

DeanRx wrote: "2) The view of a large number of scouts and parents that AOL is a FINISH LINE, instead of the starting place for Boy Scouting. I've even heard parents lament, "I just want to get Johnny to stick it out until AOL, then he can go do football, baseball, soccer, music, etc..." - they view it as a goal to achieve and then be done." Arrow of Light IS a finish line. It is the highest rank in Cub Scouting. Receiving the Arrow of Light is, quite often, the very last Cub Scout-ish thing these boys do -- it is the end of their very last pack meeting. If parents are saying, "I

Well, I think it is highly unlikely that BSA would even consider voluntarily lopping off a sizeable chunk of its membership by dropping Tigers (1st graders) or bumping Wolves up to 3rd grade, Bears to 4th grade, and reducing the Webelos to just 5th grade. We can always dream, of course. I realize we've gotten away somewhat from the original topic (changing Cub Scout advancement), but if we are talking structure, assuming the same age range for BSA programs (1st grade to age 21), what _could_ be done to alleviate the problems we see? And not necessarily with just Cub Scouts, but taking i

drmbear wrote: "Our elementary school has boys all the way through fifth grade - why would we think we have to separate them?" drmbear, thanks for asking. I'm suggesting that we pull "Webelos" out of Cub Scout packs and make them separate units for a few reasons. You may not agree and that's okay. I'm not in charge anyway! 1. As Barry has described, a major issue with Cub Scout retention is adult leader burnout after 2 to 3 years. I have seen this myself -- the den leader who was the Tiger, Wolf, and Bear den leader continues on as the Webelos den leader, but is running on f

den ldr wrote: "While I'm clear on the AOL requirements, I'm UNclear on whether there is a rule on how we should count the six months for AOL Req. #1. I'm asking because I have a boy who joined Cub Scouts for the first time on October 18, 2010, as a Webelos 2 (age 10). He's striving to earn the AOL. Our Crossover will be March 31, 2011. Simply counting months on the calendar would put him ineligible to cross over until April 18, but there are 26+ weeks between when he joined and when we'll have Crossover. Is there a rule of thumb for counting months? I'd love for all my boys to cross over tog

With my older son's den, we met at my house. Ideal for me -- everything I needed for the meeting was there; I didn't have to transport it. I had a carpet remnant I rolled out on one side of my garage and ran a space heater in cold weather. We could make as much of a mess as we wanted and be as loud as we wanted. There was generally always some hammer pounding, sawing, painting, games, or some other activity going on that would often spill out into my yard. And we could always make a fire in the barbecue grill. With my younger son, we had a different den leader, and met in a classroom

BSA produces lots of publications, forms, pamphlets, booklets, cards, etc. But is there something that you wish BSA would make available that you don't have now? Maybe something in a different form or format than what is available, or something new? For example, I wish there was a pocket-size booklet listing just the requirements for Webelos, Arrow of Light, and the twenty Webelos Activity Badges. Also, I wish there was a compact checklist of all of the Joining Requirements through First Class requirements, but with the requirements that contain multiple parts or tasks broken out into sing

Hawkrod, thanks for your comments. I've been in a pack with two Webelos dens in 4th grade and two Webelos dens in 5th grade, and I've been in a pack with just one 4th grade Webelos Scout. I look at it this way: Currently, it only takes four adults and five boys to have a Scout unit. (I believe the minimum is even lower for LDS units -- 3 boys?) This would be no different than the many small troops we have in BSA. In some cases, the number of Webelos coming out of a large pack will be enough to have a Webelos unit from just that pack. In other cases, the Webelos from multiple packs w

SeattlePioneer wrote: "Webelos is already a separate program. So is Tiger Cubs." Separate program materials from Wolf and Bear, yes -- but still part of a Cub Scout pack, still in the same unit. I want to put Webelos into their own units. I'd like to get the Webelos out of the pack and away from the toddlers, but not yet into a troop. In fact, I want to stop moving 5th graders into Boy Scout troops -- still too young. Dan K.

Barry, thanks for your comments. I understand your concern about parent resources, and how using up those resources for a first grade program (much less a kindergarten program) just accelerates burn-out. I'm just afraid the genie is already out of the bottle -- how long has the Tiger program been around? Twenty years, at least. Pulling Webelos out of the Pack would at least give parents/leaders a definitive end-point -- the end of 3rd grade. "Webelos" would be a time for fresh new leadership to step up. I would suggest that it is not "pushing down" Boy Scout stuff in the sense that e

Well, if we're talking Cub Scout structure . . . Remove Webelos Scouting from Cub Scouting. A Cub Scout pack would consist of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grades (and Kindergarten, if the pilot program is a success). The 4th and 5th graders would become a separate (small) unit utilizing the existing Webelos program; but the program would expand to include the summer (ideally, with summer camp) between 5th and 6th grades, with the boys joining Boy Scout troops in the fall as they enter 6th grade. No more Cub Scout pack stuff. The program would be expanded to add Boy Scout Tenderfoot requirem

I was a frequent contributor/poster in the early days of the "Scouting Community," BSA's attempt at a social networking site on MyScouting. Three things effectively killed that effort, which was small but encouraging. One was a technology "upgrade" that effectively blew up the forums and groups. The second was one fellow who made it his business to attack anyone whose views differed from his, and to just keep at it until he "won" the shouting match. The third was another fellow who made it his business to strike back at the first fellow and match him post for post. It quickly became impos

The new Journey to Excellence program, which replaces the Centennial Quality Unit/District/Council program, stresses retention and growth. For example, requirements for troops include: Objective -- Retention: Improve retention rate. -- Bronze Level: Retain and re-register 76% of eligible members, or have a 2 percentage points increase. -- Silver Level: Retain and re-register 80% of members, or retain and re-register 76% and have a 2 percentage points increase. -- Gold Level: Retain and re-register 85% of members, or retain and re-register 80% and have a 2 percentage points

1. Eliminate the ridiculous discrepancy between Electives for Wolf rank and Electives for Bear rank. It is as if someone with a grudge against Den Leaders was going out of their way to make Cub Scouts as unnecessarily complicated as possible. 2. As others have stated, less talk -- more action. I offer as Exhibit A the Webelos Fitness activity badge, the requirements of which (other than the Character Connections requirement) read: -------------------- And do six of these: 2. With a parent or other adult family member complete a safety notebook, which is discussed i

Ummm, okay, so a federal statute is meaningless unless there is a court decision giving it teeth. A fascinating view of separation of powers and the checks and balances under the Constitution. Must be the apoplexy induced by reading Kudu's posts. Unfortunately, the energy expended in attacking Kudu's views has caused this discussion to escape Earth's gravity. Dan K.

"using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916" Not just any methods; "the" methods. A particular set of methods. Not just used occasionally or used here or there; in "common" use. Familiar to all. Not just any particular sub-group of Boy Scouts; "boy scouts." Boy Scouts generally. So, what were "the" methods "in common use" by "boy scouts" on June 15, 1916? Well, this was just nine years after the Brownsea experiment and eight years after publication of _Scouting For Boys_. Scouting was spreading like wildfire around the world. B-P was very much

Interestingly, section 30902 does _not_ specify that the "methods in common use" be those of Boy Scouts _in the United States_; it says "in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916." Thus we need NOT be troubled by any peculiar American notions that were contrary to Baden-Powell's methods (_the_ methods in common use by boy scouts).(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)

Twocubdad wrote: "Are you advocating for teaching Scoutcraft skill in common use in 1916, per the Congressional charter, or the Scoutcraft skills you think should have been in common use in 1916 had the BSA adopted BPs program wholesale?" The Congressional Charter does not say anything about teaching the Scoutcraft skills in common use in 1916. It says that BSA is to use the training methods in common use in 1916 to train boys in Scoutcraft. Dan K.

The more examples I see of mis-stated LNT guidance, specific LNT techniques applied to the wrong situations, and park-specific or situation-specific exceptions to or elaborations on LNT guidance, the more I think that the guidance we need should be stated as: 1. Find out the applicable laws and the land owner/manager's rules, policies, and recommendations, and do that. 2. When a particular situation isn't covered by those laws, rules, policies, and recommendations, then: (a) if the area is designated for human activity, leave it cleaner than you found it; and (b) if it is a "natur

What concerns me about this discussion is the premise that the Webelos Scout program is boring because it is simply more of the same stuff that the Scouts have been doing since Tigers, and the notion that the solution is more contact with Boy Scouts and Boy Scouting. If the Webelos Scout program is boring, in my experience, it is because the den leaders are running the Webelos den program just like they ran the Tiger, Wolf, and Bear den programs. If the Webelos Scout program is not fun, in my experience, it is because the den leaders are far too focused on racing through as many advancem

Hmmm. Is EDGE something new? I thought it was just a cutesy name for a process older than Homo Sapiens . . . Dan K.