dkurtenbach

"Advancement at this level is subtle." No it isn't. There is nothing subtle about a checklist of things to do followed by the award of a badge.

"Advancement at this level is subtle." No it isn't. There is nothing subtle about a checklist of things to do followed by the award of a badge.

bnelon44 wrote: "But all of us, me included, if we suggest changes we need to be able to defend them based upon the Aims of Scouting." Well, unless we think the Aims of Scouting need to be changed. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

It is pretty much irrelevant what the Guide to Advancement has to say about proficiency or mastery of skills or retention of knowledge or that a badge represents what a Scout is able to do. Irrelevant because those concepts do not appear in the rank requirements. That is significant for two reasons: One, while pretty much everyone (Scouts, unit leaders, and parents) has the rank requirements in front of them and can refer to them at any time, very few of these people -- the ones for whom rank advancement really matters -- will know that the Guide to Advancement even exists. It doesn't matter how authoritative the Guide to Advancement is if no one knows about it. Two, in keeping with our literalist, legalistic culture, the rank requirements are specific and objective, and we cannot add to them or subtract from them or re-test them once completed. "Mastery of skills" is an interesting and worthwhile concept, but it is neither required nor measurable as part of the _Advancement_ system. The unit cannot rely on the Advancement requirements to develop competency in outdoor or preparedness skills. It is painful for many of us that a boy can become an Eagle Scout even though he has never hiked a single mile (he can take a 10-mile bike ride for Second Class, he can take Cycling or Swimming instead of Hiking MB, and he can complete Camping MB by tubing down a lazy river and rappelling 30 feet), but that is the direction BSA has chosen to go with its Advancement requirements. Where "mastery of skills" is a relevant concept is in _program_. A troop that wants Scouts to be expert outdoorsmen or competent first aid providers has to achieve those goals through its own program choices and unit practices that encourage repetition and use of skills. Unfortunately, we don't have a specific set of requirements for operating a program that encourages repetition and use of particular skills so that Boy Scouts actually become competent in the skills that we expect Boy Scouts to have. Some units figure it out, and run active outdoor programs in which those skills matter. Many units don't have "mastery of skills" as a program goal, and so only do as much skill work as the rank requirments call for. That's fine for accomplishing _Advancement_, but not so fine in turning out what we think of as "real" Boy Scouts. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

Four of the old-style tan shirts: One with Cub Scout insignia I haven't worn in at least twelve years; two fully loaded with knots and insignia that were my mainstay in troop and district roles from about 1999 to about 2009 (and probably will never wear again); and one "new" one purchased just before the Centennial version came out, with nothing sewn on and never worn. One Centennial-style (smokes pocket) supplex nylon shirt, sleeve insignia (including Rocking Chair Patrol patch), universal patch, green Boy Scout shoulder loops, cloth name tag, and hanging OA temporary patch. This is my "troop" shirt when, as a retired SM, I show up at my two former troops from time to time. One vented microfiber shirt, sleeve insignia (including Bear Patrol patch), universal patch, silver shoulder loops, cloth name tag, occasional hanging temporary patch or OA dangle. This is my "district/council" shirt. Stopped wearing the knots and reduced other "front" decorations when I switched to the Centennial-style shirt. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

Yes, it is now possible to complete the firebuilding requirement indoors in a classroom setting -- just bring in some tinder, kindling, and fuel. But even that wouldn't be necessary. To "demonstrate" how to build a fire, a Scout could use fake firewood made from styrofoam and construction paper (maintained in the troop gear so lots of Scouts can use it), or could use a model (made from modelling clay, perhaps), diagrams on poster board, or a PowerPoint presentation. And then it is one short step to finding a YouTube video on how to build a fire, and showing that. Now that's entertainment. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

SeattlePioneer wrote: "Is there a virtual fire building website? Maybe you could teach fire building without a match by rubbing two virtual sticks together." We already have that -- Second Class requirement 3f: "In an approved place and at an approved time, demonstrate how to build a fire and set up a lightweight stove. Note: Lighting the fire is not required." Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

In response to my comment on requirements being written as largely "one and done," bnelon44 wrote: "Except for some exceptions (e.g., camp gaget using lashings), haven't Boy Scout requirements have always been that way?" In my experience, without researching the issue, yes -- they have always been that way. So, if the requirements have always been written that way, where did the notion come from that a rank represents what a Scout is capable of doing, that is, that a rank indicates that a Scout has continuing competency in the skills learned to earn that rank? Was that ever actually true? Or has it always been the case that a large percentage of Scouts quickly forget skills and knowledge for which they received sign offs? If it was true at one time that rank represented continuing skill competency even though the requirements were written as "one and done," perhaps something else changed. Perhaps the environment in which Scouts were trained in those skills has changed. Perhaps in past times Scouts did not rush through requirements, but had many opportunities to practice something and really learn it before they asked for a signoff. Perhaps in past times the expectation was that you had to really know something before you got signed off. The hazy memories of my youth suggest that getting my card signed off on some requirement was a big deal and not approached lightly. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

JMHawkins wrote: "[First Class First Year emphasis] removes the opportunity from the Scout to learn about setting and managing his own goals. If they adults are force-marking hims through the ranks, he never learns how to prioritize and manage his own advancement." When I was SM, one of the things I used to emphasize to visiting parents was that in our troop, a Scout advanced at his own pace, and it was up to him to find someone to sign off requirements. We weren't going to be leading them by the nose through advancement, and we weren't going to be checking their books regularly and telling them what to do next. I'd get looks like I was from another planet. Then the enthusiastic new parents would come in and start leading Scouts by the nose through advancement, checking their books regularly, and telling them what to do next. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

I would suggest that it is not the Guide to Advancement that needs to be changed. Most adult leaders in units will never have heard of the Guide to Advancement, much less have read it. What really matters is how the actual advancement requirements are written. The requirements are what the Scouts see and act on, what the leaders see and act on, and what the parents see (and demand action on). This is particularly significant in regard to the issue of skill proficiency versus "one-and-done." If "the badge represents what the Scout is capable of doing, not a reward for what he has done" appeared in bold letters on every page of the Guide to Advancement AND every page of every youth handbook, it would still be irrelevant, because the actual requirements call for a skill or bit of knowledge or some experience to be demonstrated only once or just a small number of times, and then that item is never called for again in the requirements. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)

Musings . . . What if your lodge has an ugly pocket flap? So if I'm out at a ceremony at an Ordeal weekend, or at a Camporee as part of the OA contingent directing traffic, and I'm wearing my tan uniform shirt, but it's cold, am I barred from wearing my sash over my jacket? Maybe the Switchback pants were designed with an "internal" belt so you can't hang OA sashes on them. If the only folks who can wear the OA sash with anything other than the uniform shirt are Elangomats, and BSA says the uniform is for indoor and ceremonial activities and that other appropriate clothing should be worn for outdoor stuff (see the Boy Scout Handbook), you really shouldn't see many sashes on Arrowmen doing outdoor service projects, right? Are there any rules about whether the ends of the sash have to be snapped together when it is worn? With tongue firmly in cheek, Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

Oh, I think much of the thrust of this discussion has been about whether the guidelines for sash wear make sense, or should be changed in order to accomplish certain goals.

Just a clarification: There is a difference between "stock" designs offered by companies such as Patchtown and ClassB and "custom" designs purchased from such companies. The "stock" designs are already programmed into the patch-making equipment, so the company has no further "development" costs. These stock designs are shown on the websites and can be purchased for fairly reasonable prices. For example, Patchtown offers stock designs for $2.29 each, no minimum, and ClassB sells their stock designs for $2.99 each, no minium, with discounts for quantity ($2.49 each for 8 or more). "Custom" designs are those created from scratch, and the patch company has to translate your idea into an embroidered (or printed/dyed -- see designsondemand.com) patch, so true "custom" patches are more expensive. Many Patchtown "stock" designs started as "custom" designs, or as alterations to existing "stock" designs (changing color, deleting or adding elements, etc.). Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

With rental trailers, yes, there is sometimes a "well, let's see what we can do" atmosphere. I once had to take a slightly larger open trailer than I had reserved because that store didn't have one when they thought they did, and I once had to take a different trailer than had been set aside for me because the lights didn't work on that one. But those were only minor inconveniences. And I know some folks who had a difficult time finding a usable trailer in a very rural area -- the rental locations that existed in area towns were not exactly well-stocked. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

Service requirements teach youth that (a) service is one half of a transaction -- he or she does service, and in return gets something of value (such as rank advancement or school credit); and (b) you only need to do service up to the amount of the requirement, because that is all you're getting paid for (and save any additional service until you need it for the next rank or credit next semester). The Scout spirit requirement is a broader application of that same principle ("To complete this requirement, give me examples of how you have been Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, and Friendly in your daily life."). An ironic turn for an organization inspired by the story of a Boy Scout who refused to accept a tip. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

What are your council camps used for when not being used for summer camp? And more specifically: (1) Do units use them for weekend camping and activities? Why or why not? (2) Do outside/non-Scouting organizations use them for activities or events? Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

The "Joining Requirements" as we have them now may be vestiges of a notion of a trial period or "apprenticeship" before being accepted into the Scouting brotherhood. Here's how the 7th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook (late 60s/early 70s) describes it: "Meeting the Tenderfoot Tests. Simply coming to a troop meeting and getting in with your future pals won't make you a Boy Scout overnight. There are rules you must follow and skills you must learn to be a full-fledged Scout. These rules and skills are spelled out in the Tenderfoot tests . . . "Study the Tenderfoot tests carefully, then settle down to meet them. You will get plenty of help from the fellows in the patrol you expect to join, especially from your future patrol leader. . . . If you are a Cub Scout, you will learn the tests while you work for your Webelos badge in your Webelos den. "When your patrol leader is confident that you know your stuff, he'll get you a Scout application form. Have your parents fill in this form and sign it. Then sign it yourself and take it to your Scoutmaster with your national membership fee. "Your Scoutmaster will go over the Tenderfoot tests with you to make sure that you know them and understand them. When he is satisfied, he will send your application and your membership fee to the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America through your local council office. "Your Investiture. Now comes the big moment when you are received into Boy Scouting in a simple investiture ceremony. "Some evening at a troop meeting or some night at a campfire, you stand before your Scoutmaster, the Scouts of the troop, and your parents. You raise your right hand in the Scout sign and solemnly dedicate yourself to the Scout Oath . . . From then on you are a member of the world brotherhood of Scouting and are on your way with your patrol and troop toward a life of outdoor fun and adventure, of service to others, of training yourself to become the kind of MAN you want to be." The accompanying illustration shows the Scoutmaster lighting candles on a ceremonial stand. In front of him are two boys making the Scout sign, one in "civilian" clothes and the other in a Cub Scout uniform. Behind them are the Boy Scouts of the troop in uniform. Ah, a simpler and more relaxed time when you didn't have folks thinking about insurance coverage and about getting application forms turned in so they can meet membership goals and about getting to First Class within a year. Then, the Tenderfoot tests required learning real skills and actually doing things to demonstrate that you were ready to be a member. In a way, it was like how Order of the Arrow membership works now -- you don't become a member until you can pass the tests of the Ordeal, and then you become a member in a ceremony. Here's the equivalent narrative from the current Boy Scout Handbook (pages 16-17): "The Scoutmaster and Scouts of a troop you visit will welcome you and talk about the exciting activities in store for you. If you decide to become a member, they can guide you through the BSA's joining requirements. " "That's all there is to it! Your Scoutmaster and the Scouts in our troop will welcome you as a new member, and you can proudly wear the badge and uniform of the Boy Scouts of America." These days, when a boy comes to his first meeting, an older Scout or an ASM will take him (or the whole group, if several boys are joing together) aside and run through the Joining Requirements then and there -- or immediately sign off the Joining Requirements for any boys who earned the Arrow of Light. There is no sense of a boy earning his way into his "future" patrol, and no anticipation of "the big moment when you are received into Boy Scouting." These days, the Joining Requirements seem more like a little bureacratic drill, not a substantive and meaningful introduction to Boy Scouting and not a test of a boy's determination to become a Boy Scout. In other words, there is no real point to them anymore. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA(This message has been edited by dkurtenbach)

If the idea is to keep the same general structure rather than make wholesale changes . . . Here are my thoughts on requirements 1 through 9. Deletions in [brackets], additions _underlined_. 1. Present yourself to your leader, properly dressed, before going on an overnight camping trip. Show the camping gear you will use. Show the right way to pack and carry it. _Campout dates:_______________ _ 2. Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch. _Campout dates:_______________ _ [3.] _3a._ On [the] _a_ campout, assist in preparing_,_ [and] cooking_, and cleaning up after_ one of your patrol's meals. _Campout dates:_______________ _ _3b. On a campout, eat every meal with your patrol._ _Campout dates:_______________ _ [Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup, and explain the importance of eating together.] 4a. _On at least three separate occasions at least two weeks apart, demonstrate_ [Demonstrate] how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope. _Date:__________ Date:__________ Date:__________ _ 4b. _On at least three separate occasions at least two weeks apart, demonstrate_ [Demonstrate] that you know how to tie the following knots by using them to properly set up a dining fly or guylines for a tent[and tell what their uses are]: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch. _Date:__________ Date:__________ Date:__________ _ [4c. Using the EDGE method, teach another person how to tie the square knot.] [5.] _5a. Present yourself to your leader, properly dressed, before going on a patrol hike of at least five miles. Show the hiking gear you will use. Show the right way to pack and carry it. Hike date:_________ _ _5b. With your patrol, go on a daylight patrol hike of at least 5 miles. Hike date:_________ _ _5c. On a daylight patrol hike, demonstrate safe hiking practices_ [Explain the rules of safe hiking], both on the highway and cross-country, [during the day and at night] _and techniques to prevent becoming separated from the patrol_. _Hike date:_________ _ _5d. On a daylight patrol hike, demonstrate_ [Explain] what to do if you are lost. _Hike date:_________ _ _5e. On a daylight patrol hike, demonstrate Leave No Trace hiking practices in areas with established trails and in areas without established trails. Hike date:_________ _ _5f. On a daylight patrol hike, demonstrate how to read and follow at least two different types of trail markers or blazes. Hike date:_________ _ _5g. With your patrol, go on a night patrol hike of at least 2 miles, demonstrating safe practices for hiking at night. Hike date:_________ _ 6. (No change) Demonstrate how to display, raise, lower, and fold the American flag. 7. Repeat from memory and explain in your own words the Scout Oath, Law, motto, and slogan _and the Outdoor Code_. [8.] _8a. At a troop meeting, outing, or activity, stand in front of the troop and give your patrol name, explaining what the patrol name means._ _8b. At a troop meeting, outing, or activity, stand in front of the troop and show your patrol flag, explaining what each word, symbol, or other part of the flag means._ _8c. At three different troop or patrol meetings, outings, or activities, lead your patrol in giving the patrol yell._ [Know your patrol name, give the patrol yell, and describe your patrol flag.] _Date:__________ Date:__________ Date:__________ _ [9.] _9a. At three different troop or patrol outings or activities, demonstrate proper use of the buddy system. Date:__________ Date:__________ Date:__________ _ _9b._ Explain the importance of the buddy system as it relates to your personal safety on outings and in your neighborhood. _9c. In a patrol skit, demonstrate at least two different types of bullying behavior and how to respond to a bully._ [Describe what a bully is and how you should respond to one.] Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

The requirements for the Tenderfoot should be . . . FIRST, get rid of the Joining Requirements and "Scout" as a non-rank rank. Acceptance of the application form and fees should be sufficient to officially be a Boy Scout. SECOND, stamp out the practice of putting multiple separate rank requirements into a single numbered requirement. For example, the two sentences of TF requrement 3 would be separated into two requirements. ("On the campout, assist in preparing and cooking one of your patrol's meals. Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup, and explain the importance of eating together.") THIRD, replace the lazy "Tell," "Explain," and "Discuss" requirements with "Demonstrate" requirements wherever possible. FOURTH, return to the requirements structure of the late 60s/7th Edition of the Boy Scout Handbook: Tenderfoot was basic knowledge/citizenship, Second Class was focused on hiking skills, First Class was focused on camping skills. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

I went online to check. At least for my location, there was a page with a pickup location zip code, pick up date, and next to that a "Time Needed" dropdown list that gave options from 1 hour to 14 days. Some locations may not offer a multi-day option. For my location, a 5x8 cargo (enclosed) trailer or a 5x8 utility (open) trailer are $18.95 per day, or $56.85 for a 3 day rental. (There are smaller and larger trailers as well.) Add $8 per day for the optional insurance on the trailer and contents, it comes to $80.85 before tax. If you have 12 people on the trip, that works out to $6.74 per person for the trailer. When we were a car-transportation-based troop and rented a trailer only once or twice a year, doing so was a very flexible and economical option for special situations. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

In our area, Scouting in the LDS church works much like the Group concept: boys are in the troop through age 13; 14-15 year olds in Varsity Teams; 16-17 year olds in Venturing Crews. Automatic transition. The Group concept could be done now by a strong Chartered Organization with a high interest in the Scouting program and in being thrifty with its resources -- financial, material, and human. You'd want one joint Committee (each Committee Member multiple-registered), one bank account and one Treasurer, joint fundraisers, one calendar, and one pool of equipment and supplies. You'd want a uniform and seamless transition, probably based on grade level. I could see four program levels -- Cub Scouts, Webelos Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturers -- operating independent programs but coordinating calendars and resources, under the watchful eye of an overall Program Chair responsible not only for logistics but for the quality and challenge of outings and activities. The biggest problem would be holding it together over the long haul, because there would be constant whining that each program should have its own gear and its own money, and "that's not the way everyone else does it," and such. And the Committee would have to have people who _really_ know the different programs, understand the big picture, and can figure out "bridges" and work-arounds to deal with the differences.

We're in a very sports-oriented suburban area, so there are always youth who have games, on top of the ordinary scheduling conflicts families can have. To help with that, we started doing about half of our weekend campouts as "3-Part" activities. Part 1 -- the Friday night campout, at a nearby (less than 1/2 hour) park or campground. Meet after supper, go out, set up, have a campfire, enjoy the evening, get up and cook breakfast. Part 2 -- about 9 AM, depart the camp or park for a day adventure, such as climbing, battlefield visit, hike, etc. Part 3 -- return to the camp or park around 4 PM, cook supper and have other activities in the evening, get up in the morning, have breakfast, Scout's Own service, break camp, clean up, closing circle, head home. The beauty of this is that Scouts can attend one, two, or all three parts. It is easy to get out to where the troop is, so the Scouts can easily come and go. We've had Scouts who could only come out for Friday night, and get picked up early Saturday. We've had Scouts who couldn't camp but came out for the day adventure. And every other combination. Also makes it very easy to get adult help. The key is to have a great day adventure; otherwise, it can quickly get boring going back to the same nearby campgrounds on a regular basis (even with four good ones). The other half of our schedule were campouts at more distant locations (1 hour plus) where you pretty much had to be able to spend the entire time because it would have been difficult to come out later or to leave early. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

"But the troop that got the most activity and thus the most recruits was the troop that year after year set up a rubber band shooting range and gave away cheap prizes." And this goes right to the heart of the main argument in favor of "troop shopping" -- that it is about Webelos Scouts finding the troop that is the "best fit" for them. In a competitive "troop shopping" environment, troops are going to act rationally in order to succeed in the competition. That means doing what will attract new Scouts to the troop, even if what brings them in the door has nothing to do with the troop's actual program. Heck, our Webelos Workshops are designed to bring Webelos Scouts, leaders, and parents in to meet folks in our troop and get them comfortable with us through regular contact. They are not designed to reflect our troop program. (Although, I hope the Workshops are more constructive than simply shooting rubber bands. For the Scientist badge, for example, making and throwing paper airplanes illustrates Bernoulli's principle, and blowing up balloons then letting them go illustrates Newton's third law of motion. Ugh. Now I feel cheap and slutty. Oh, wait -- we've made rope, fixed bike tires, practiced first aid, studied maps -- I feel better now.) Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

"Thank god I am nearly done with Cub scouting." You know, even after two boys going completely through the Cub Scouting program with only a one-year overlap, and serving as a DL, ACM, CC, and de facto CM for a while, I never really felt burnt out from Cub Scouting, and was even Cub Scout RT Commissioner for several months before I dropped that to become Scoutmaster. But six or seven years later, I stepped in to help my old pack, which was near death (they survived). And I planned and ran a few of the pack meetings to show them how it was done -- their pack meetings before had been essentially business meetings featuring adults talking for an hour. As I was doing something goofy in a cow suit, I realized I no longer had the energy to do Cub Scouting. Delayed burnout, perhaps? Or just that I'd moved on to other interests? Either way, my version of the Beaver Dance has been permanently retired. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA

Yes, I have a _personal_ bias against troop trailers, but I also know that good troops use them well and efficiently and without falling into the trap of the trailer moving from "convenience" to "necessity" and without the trailer pulling the troop away from going "light" and engaging in more adventurous programs. Correct -- There is no right and wrong about trailer use generally; it is about the troop's program overall and how they use the trailer in that program. Heck, I was a Scout in a small rural troop that had an old small school bus for transport -- repainted tan with a big BSA logo painted on it. They took out some rows of seats in the back and installed bunks. When the bus was running, it was great. But it always needed work. Fortunately, one of the ASMs ran a service station. Dan Kurtenbach Fairfax, VA