DeanRx

The "guardian" is whomever the birth-parent authorizes to be. If I was in charge of an overnight campout, I would want this in writing as well. Blood relatives (Grandpa, uncle, brother over age 18, etc...) not such a big deal. Step-dad, not a big deal. Live in boyfriend, freind of the family, or other scouter who is close to the family? Dang straight you should cover your backside with a notarized permission slip stating WHO is responsible for the child. The G2SS is the death of common sense incarnate! Its not LAW, its not even a RULE, its a GUIDE !!! says so right in its NAME! And if you think hiding behind its "rules" will save your butt, you have no business leading youth doing anytning. period. Your a leader, you make the decision for what needs to happen in a given situation and YOU are accountable for the outcome of that decision... isn't this what we are trying to instill in these boys? Why as adults are we so quick to shirk what we are charged to teach?

Yeah Renax, IMHO, that type of quoting of the rules is generally best handled with the reply, "Sorry you didn't feel the event held up to the BSA standard. Can I get your name, number and e-mail address so YOU can be the sub-committee chair for this event next year? I'd love to hear your ideas for improving it and we can always use more adult volunteers..." That usually gets right to the meat of the question at hand. If the parent / adult is raising the issue and has never show their face for a planning / committee meeting in their life, take it with a grain of salt and move on with life. They either step up and make it what they want it to be, or they stop **** ing and stay out of the way. If they are in charge, they can't complain about the content anymore and you have one less thing on your plate.

Lets see.... Pie in the face of CM (me) for reaching Popcorn goal? Check. (last 4 years) Singing "God Bless my Underwear" at campout? Check. (every campout) Water-gun fight at district ran day camp? Check. (not my doing, but it happens every year) Liquid accelerant to magically start campfire? Check. (done by adult, not scout) Branding of rank for each scout? Check. (Boys want it on their forehead, we just started with it on their hand...) Council ran scout camp trading post has KYBO juice favored ICEE syrup. KYBO is their acronym for the pit toliets at camp. Check. (so much for body fluid jokes) Result, 50+ boy pack, 8 years strong, growing faster than any other pack in our corner of the county and regular high $$ participation in FOS, camping, and scout fair booth? Check. Guess I need to resign my post and be banned from leading the youth?... Actually had parents at campouts do the following: 1) Youth hitting tree-trunk with 1/8 inch diameter stick... Adult, "Son, you need to stop that, you could damage the tree!" Me, "If he can cause permenant damage, I'll give the lad an award." Other adult claimed it was a LNT violation... Tree was 80+ ft tall oak, I doubt a 10 year old was going to fell it with a switch! At least he was hitting the tree and not a fellow scout! Now, if they're ripping the bark off, then put a stop to it, but come on!!! 2) Wrapper from pop-tart tossed into campfire by scout, shrivelled to nothing in 5 secs flat... Adult, "Now we can't use this fire to roast Smor's b/c its been contaminated with plastics!!!". I calmly walked over to the marshmallows and loaded up 4 on a skewer and started the roasting party. Told the boys, "The plastic residue might cause you're hair to fall out." (I'm bald). Sheesh get real! Let boys be boys a little bit and they'll actually stay around. Don't be irresposnsible, but you have to let them explore and make mistakes. Its part of the ADVENTURE, not to mention the best way to learn a lesson. Pie in the face, underwear songs, and fart jokes? Far less humiliating than what most parents SHAME their kids with on an ongoing basis, let alone being forced to SING because you forgot something! You forgot something, be a scout and help the fellow scout out! AS an adult, maybe have a discussion about WHY remembering to bring a needed item is important (not let yourself or others down) or being responsible, etc... Naw, just shame 'em some more.... that'll keep 'em in line. My job as CM, #1 Keep 'em alive, you might get some bumps and scrapes, but don't loose a kid or allow them to do things that can permenently harm life, limb, or eyesight. #2 Keep it fun. #3 Let the KIDS figure it out for themselves the majority of the time. Adult leaders (especially in cub land) are Great at #1, OK at #2 and most generally SUCK at #3.

We were a group of 6, camped on night 4 of a 7 day trip at Northern tier (Charles L. Solmers). We had picked a campsite out on a little peninsula jutting into the lake and had our tents towards the lake with the fire ring just beyond (inland) and the pit latrine about 100 yrds down a single track trail in the forest. We had to counter balance our food pack to keep it from the bears and usually just left the cook gear pack at the foot of the counter balance tree. Got woke up at about 1 am by the sound of something in the food pack tree... got 3 guys together with rocks, flashlights, and a makeshift torch (stick with wad-o TP on the end soaked in coleman fuel). Bear cub (maybe 2 years old, anyway smaller than the smallest guy in the group) was 2/3 the way up the tree trunk to our food pack. We made noise, shouted and threw a couple rocks at him until he decided to come down and lumber off into the forest. We rigged a line with pots-n-pans at about 4 ft off the ground between two trees, so the pans were under the food pack (our makeshift ADT bear alarm system) and went back to bed... About 1 hr later, we hear more noise by the food pack tree! This time we ALL go to investigate and find MAMA has come back to look at our food stash! So here we are, 4 teens and 2 adult dads in our underwear with rocks, trying to discourage mama bear from going after the pack (or us). It was a three day canoe / portage trip back to base camp, so we needed to defend the food! Finally got her to give up the chase after about 1.5 hours. We stoked up the campfire BIG and sat in two man shifts for the remainer of the night to make sure Yogi and BooBoo didn't make a return appearance. That was a LONG canoe day the next day after only about 4 hours total sleep than night.

If a UC, DE, or any other district or council level 'offical' showed up at my pack meeting #1 univited and #2 attempted to conduct a uniform inspection or anything else that disrupts OUR meeting or would put a cub on the spot or potentially embarras him, I would be showing extreme self constraint to keep it down to Basement's actions. I would likely call him / her out in front of the scouts and parents (hey he's calling out the boys, right?), then I'd publically dis-invite them, then I'd follow up with a not so scout-like phone call to the DE and CE the next morning! Basement, I don't blame you one bit - I would have acted the same.

1) This is why I'm not in favor of individual accounts, but I see why some folks want them. My take is you are part of something larger than yourself (the unit) and some things you do for the good of the unit (like raising funds). Now, some will argue that if a small % do the work and a large % reap the reward, then this is not fair (these folks are called young republicans... just kidding). Anyways, people (most often parents, not the scouts) scream about how unfair it is. 2) This is why when our unit committee VOTED to have individual accounts, I (and a couple other leaders) agreed on the condition that the bylaws be changed to reflect WHAT funds could / could not be used for and what happens to said funds if scout drops out of transfers to another unit. We settled on personal account funds could be used for anything scout related (yes, up to and including tents, backpacks, etc...). The scout or parent had to "purchase" the item up front and submit an expense report with a copy of the receipt to get reimbursed. The exception to this rule was dues, re-charter, Blue-&-Gold payment, camp fees, etc... Then the unit just paid the bill for the scout. Secondly, if the scout left the unit - their remaining $ revert back to the unit general fund, period. No taking it to another unit, no taking with you when you cross over to Boy Scouts, etc... I had one parent in the last 5 years challenge me on this. I told them (with the backing of the committee) that we could cut "johnny" a check, but that I needed his SSN so I could report it out to the IRS as earned income for the year. That was the end of the discussion. The issue for the OP, is the cat is already out of the bag. Your unit has already allowed this, so the precedent is set. How do you tell the next guy "no, we don't do that" when you have in fact already allowed someone else to "cash out"? You need to get your unit by-laws in order and get ALL your committee members and CO on the same page on this issue, then stick to whatever you decide. This is one time that pre-planning for a "what if" pays off huge. Those that push for individual accounts will want the $$ sooner or later, because they already view the $$ as being theirs, not the units. Hence, the push for individual accounts in the 1st place! Plus, how do you run a unit if you have 10K in the bank, but $8500 is earmarked to individual scouts? You have cash in the bank, but no general funds to run the unit... you are just the banker for the boys.

Yeah, Guess I'd just like to go to one District or above level event, be it training, a dinner, etc... and hear from the podium, "will all scouters who have more than 100 hours in direct youth contact in the past year please stand up and be recognized...". Instead, its usually, "Will all those who are eagle scouts please stand and be recognized...". To me, to bring up something someone accomplished 20+ years ago seems pretty silly. Its kind of like being at a HS football banquet and having all the dads who lettered in HS football or played on a state champ team from 20 years ago stand up and get a round of applause. Supposed to be for the current youth, not those reliving their glory days. Eamonn - I don't begrudge your friend who received the silver beaver award his honor. Sounds like a stand-up guy who backs scouting regularly. But, as a vol. it does get old going to district events to see people with very little (or in some cases NO) direct youth involvement get accolades from the professional PAID scouters because said individuals support more with their pocketbook than thier sweat-equity. Can't say I'm too surprised to hear some folks calling you out as going to the "dark-side" when you received the Silver Antelope award. There is a HUGE riff between unit / district vols. and paid "suits" that no one ever really wants to admit exists. Same reason I resent everytime I hear from my DE, its either he wants me to start a new BS unit, or wants a FOS presentation done... otherwise, I don't exist the rest of the year! He's never called or e-mailed (god forbid show up to a unit event) to see how things are going or solicit input into what the unit NEEDS or would like to see from district / council. Its not so much that the Eagle question get asked, its the auditory 'sigh' and subsequent deflation in some (not all but some) people's voice when you respond you were a scout as a youh, but didn't attain the highest rank possible. If you're out there doing your best for the boys, then that sould be enough. Unfortunately for some, that is not the case.

the Akela... not sure what it looks like, but I heard its fond o hunting snipes...

I guess I'm just becoming more aware of the potential for the issue as I have begun to move from the unit level activities into more district-wide activities (i.e. helping at trainings, etc...) Mom2cubs and Lisa - I hear your pain. As a male I can't really relate to it, but our unit did loose a very good / motivated female leader this past month because she told me she was unwhelmed and couldn't deal with the "good old boys club" mentality anymore within the organization (more so at district round talbes and training, but I suspect somewhat from the unit level as well). Maybe I'm over sensitive to the eagle question, as when I look back at my old BSA handbook, I was only about 3 merit badges and a Eagle project away from completing the rank. Something as an adult I wish I had done as a youth. Just seems there is an institutional wide culture that reminds people of those who have and those who haven't attained the rank. To be blunt, somtimes even as an adult - it seems like if you ain't Eagle, you ain't sh*t.

1) Were you a scout as a youth? 2) Did you earn Eagle? Followed closely by: 3) Have you done WB, powder horn, etc... Just curious as recent posts have discussed the Boy Scout portion looking down their collective noses at the Cub Scout portion... is this line of question an de facto screen between adults to figure out how legit a vol leader is? or to see how you rank out vs another adult vol leader? I just find it funny as I was helping teach a BALOO course tow weekends ago and when I show up, the introductions go something like this.... "Were you in scouts as a boy? - Yes "Hmm, thats good..." "Did you eagle? (I assume they mean earned the rank)" - No, just got to Life... "Well, thats too bad..." Its like you're almost a great scouter, but not quite. Hopefully, I still did a good job on the class and empartedd some knowledge someone will find useful in their scouting "career", but I can't help but wonder if others take what you say with less sincerity when they have discussions like that.

Come on guys... we're really going to get hung up on an SPL calling his peers "guys"... sheesh!

moosetracker wrote, "And maybe alot more helecopter parents trying to demand acceptence of the very weak project, so junior doesn't have to waste much time on it." Sounds like something that would happen. A LOT of this can be avoided by clearly stating what will and will not be accepable at review time, not after the porject has been completed. As for the post about a scout being designated a "lone" scout after two seperate units refused a watered down project, well councils do silly stuff all the time in the name of harmony. fred wrote, "From the above example of one cemetery sign or the lone scout, let the scout know that the EBOR can reject the whole project if it does not show sufficient leadership ... after-the-fact. Doesn't matter what is signed off at the proposal phase. If the project didn't demonstrate the candidate's leadership skills, the whole project can be rejected by the EBOR. A smart scout (and his family) should get the hint that wasting time on an inadequate project is too big a risk." Sorry, I disagree wholeheartedly. A smart scout would make sure his Eagle project demonstrates enough leadership, but once its approved by either the Dist. Advancement Chair or EBOR (whichever does it for your district / council), then the scout should have assurance that if they complete the project as described, they will have an excellent chance at passing their EBOR! Now, I understand if the scout fails to perform the project as described, or fails to lead, etc... the EBOR can take this as reason to reconsider. However, to let a scout move forward with an Eagle project and then after its completion state, "Naa, we just don't think it met the standard." is pretty poor form on the part of the EBOR and smacks of a board on a power trip, not one intent on objectively assessing a scout's achievements.

Would I put on a class? Heck no! Our pack sells about 20K a year in direct competition from at least 12 other units in a 10 mile radius! We have to attend a "lottery" put on by the district (or as I call it, the popcorn draft) to choose site sales to prevent other units from squatting on each other's sales!! They (other units) are in direct competition with our unit for funding $$. In council's eye, more sales equals more dollars into the council, but if unit A increases sales by taking unit B's sales, then its really a draw for the council, but the two units see their take change. I fully agree that a price point of $5 is optimal. As I work in retail and deal with marketting in my job, people will throw $5 at a good cause without thinking, you get into double digits and they stop to think about it.... then you loose a sale. I wrote national about this 2 years ago and heard nothing but crickets in return. While the GSUSA has BSA beat on price point and exclusive product (thin mints are the best), they don't see the same margins BSA has at both the unit and council levels. At least our sales pitch can claim 66% of every dollar stays in the council, 1/3 to unit, 1/3 to council. I have moms in our unit who head GS cookie sales and their units make $0.50 on a box of $4 cookies !! I'd rather just donate $1 to their unit and forgo the cookies, its a double in their margin and better for my waistline! Bottom line, BSA needs to get a product with exclusivity (a flavor you can only get via BSA) and a price point around $5. I might spend $20 on GS cookies, but at least I get 5 boxes. I spend $20 on BSA popcorn and I get one bag! I can buy a box of crunch-n-munch for $2.50 at my local supermarket and its basically the same thing! I won't even start in on the whole idea of selling fattening popcorn while Mazzuca and national pitch a "get fit" mantra to the rank and file... that's a whole other post in itself!

"Except for a couple places where it says scoutmaster, and it could say scoutmaster or cubmaster, it's a pretty nice list." Na.... I'm a cubmaster and I'd be fine with any complaints from cub parents going to a scoutmaster. I don't care which one, just pick a troop and go complain Overall, a very well written list Beavah, thank you for your input. Dean

I'm with Beav and 2cub on this one. Committees should be looking for ways to approve the Eagle project, not shoot it down repeatedly. I know when I was a scout, our CO was a church, we had two Eagle projects I helped with... One was sandblasting (not sure that would be allowed nowadays) the old, faded parking striped off the church parking lot and repainting the lot. I think we built a disabled parking spaces and ramp to go with it and maybe added some park benches around the parking area. Another project was removing and cleaning storm windows and refurbishing the exterior of some of the stained glass windows the storm windows covered. Now, I'd agree this would be considered routine maintenance, but if memory serves me these storm windows hadn't been taken off the church in the time I had been around (at the time about 15 years)... so it was actually quite an undertaking and as the church was pretty large, it took a good amount of coordination of the volunteers to make it happen. Both of these were just as hard to pull of as the one Eagle project I helped with planting trees and shrubs as a windbreak on the grounds of a local school. The planting, while its impact lasts longer (trees still there today vs windows washed / sealed probably at least 3 times since then), is no less work than the other two. All three guys passed their EBORs with these projects. As a youth, I would have no idea that one would be considered more deserving as an Eagle project over the others.

Kudu- You and I are closer to the same page than you might think. Thats why I put the qualifier of (if done correctly), on the EDGE method. If done correctly, it means a scout first shown a skill, then they practice until they have mastered said skill. Then to prove they have a mastery of it, they then TEACH said skill to another scout(s). In my time in the military and in college, this was distilled to see one, do one, teach one. Its an extremely effective way of teach multiple skills, the premise being that if you've mastered it well enough to explain and teach it to a peer, then you likely will not forget it. However, from what I see most of EDGE in BSA its the ADULTS doing the "demonstrate and guide" portion. This, I would agree with you are better served if the youth is allowed to do it. Too many "managers" get hung up on the semantics of the acronym, instead of employing the INTENT correctly. Its not a bad concept, its just not done correctly a lot of the time. As for the opportunity to lead, without severe consequences... I don't see where that is a bad thing. We live in a zero-tolerance society. Every little mis-step is automatically pounced upon as proof of someone's unfit to lead. Well, how do you TEACH leadership without having an environment to screw up? What are all the boys supposed to not be PL or SPL for their 1st 3 years in scouts, then hang around until just before their 18th birthday to get their leadership position? Not sure what your ideal concept is Kudu? That to me is the very basis of why Troops that employ the Patrol Method and do it well, often look like a chaotic mess. Its boys learning to lead boys, its not going to be perfect, because you have novice leaders in leadership roles!! I agree changing every 6 months is not ideal, but if every boy needs a LP to advance in rank and it is a larger sized Troop, how else do you make it work? Troops that are run as well oiled machines look to me to be older boy cub scouts, with adults doing most of the directing and decision making. To me, the decline and loss of interest is due to the dilution of the "outdoor adventure" into a stroll through a museum. Between LNT, G2SS, and heli-parents, we have a become a 'go into the outdoors and look at it, but God forbid, don't touch, move, or change anything....you might get hurt or upset the environment so badly that it will never recover !!!' organization. That's where the loss of kids is from. I can take a group of kids camping in the Anza dessert. We can hike, we can climb (to a certain extent until G2SS says its bouldering). But when they see other kids their age across the highway zipping past on 4-wheelers in the OHV area, suddenly scouting starts to loose its luster. They want to jump a sand dune and make a Red Bull commercial out of their weekend. Yours, in the trenches with the troops.... DeanRx

I don't think it has to be scouting, but scouting has distilled a lot of things that bring success to building character over the last 100 years... 1) The opportunity to lead, fail and learn from it. Not many places in life you get to try your hand at being a leader and if it doesn't go quite as planned you don't get fired, or cost yourself or your company lots of $$, or in the case of the military or law enforcement, get someone killed. 2) Adults and youth leaders who take a pledge to LIVE the values all day every day. This is modelling the behavoir or leading by example (my web II son is SICK of hearing me say this, however he is finally starting to understand that how HE acts influences other cubs, just by virture of being the 'older' boy). He told me earlier in the year, "I don't WANT to be the example." Now he understands he IS the example whether he wants to be or not... just like a parent is an example to the child whether they want to be or not. 3) Program structure that pushes the youth, yet allows for enough safety measures to allow heli-parents to "let go" & let the child develop. Lots of posts debate the merits of these ranges with BSA on these boards, eh? Youth must be challenged to do something more than they've done in the past, go farther, go harder, take a risk, etc... otherwise there is no progress. Yet, it is incrimental and step-wise so that small successes build upon themselves. 4) The art of learning, then mastering, then teaching to another. This is EDGE method in a nutshell. Its been used for years and years by Armies to train soldiers, by med schools to teach doctors, etc... its a strong and proven method that BSA is smart to embrace (when done correctly). 5) A program that requires TEAMWORK to accomplish major goals. Can a scout make rank by themself? Maybe, up to about Star. But for the senoir ranks, one must LEAD group activities and your success is dependent upon the GROUP's success. An Eagle poject is the capstone of a leader influencing a team to accomplish a goal. 6) A sense of higher purpose. Why do scouts do service projects and community service (aside from it being the right thing to do)? Because it builds a sense of doing something or being something bigger than yourself and bigger than the sum of its parts. Scouts learn via service that there are things far more important than themselves, their accomplishments, their goals. Leaving the world a better place for those who come along after is a powerful seed to plant in a youth. 7) Discipline. I tell my boys, discipline is just being a parent to yourself. You know right from wrong, discipline is making the correct choice when faced with an option. How do you prioritize tasks? Does work get done 1st and then you goof off, or the other way around? 8) A hook. What keeps the youth interested and coming back for more? The adventure, the esprit de corps? Those are all traits BSA does well to build character. Can a kid this from a coach? from band, from other activities? probably with perhaps the exception being a sense of higher purpose, unless their is a service component to the activity. Winning the state championship in football is great, it teaches teamwork, leadership, discipline, sportsmanship, etc... but it does little to teach a youth to leave the world better than you found it. BSA has a great model buil over 100 years on a framework of outdoor adeventure... thats the hook. Its also why I think there is a LOT of justified handwringing around these boards about changes to policy and program that are seen to dilute the framework of outdoor adventure. No matter how well intentioned in the name of safety, fairness, or some other reason. If it gets diluted too much - youth will seek the adventure elsewhere, no matter how good of a program you might bring to the table.

yeah Barry... I get what you're saying. It doesn't matter the diameter of the bulls-eye so long as all the shooters have the same size bulls-eye to aim at, right? There will always be discrepancies and the more accurate / sensitive the scale used, the more likely you will weigh a car the night before and have it be fine, then weigh it in the morning and have it be over due to moisture or some other issue. A few tricks that have worked for us.... I have a medical grade scale good to 0.001grams. This is a blessing and a curse. The airflow over the sclaeplate can actually affect the reading. A kid barely touching the table at the other end of check in can affect the reading, etc.... So.... we have the check in scale on its own table, we calibrate it regularly throughout weigh-in (with provided reference weigh), we make sure the bubble level is level and we recheck if it ever gets bumped. The goal is to make it as fair to every car as we can. Remember its much easier when weighing in grams to 141.75grams, than trying to hit 5.0 ounces. Spend the little extra $$ and get a scale that at least goes to a tenth of a gram! 0.1 ounce out of 5 ounces is 2% of the total car weight. 0.1grams out of 141.75grams is 0.07% of the total car weight... far, far more accurate. If your scale takes anything over 5 ounces, say 5.00001 and rounds to 5.1 (because that is its accuracy) then you have a potential varriance of up to +/- 2% of total car weight between cars that check out at the same weight !!! Get the most accurate scale you can, calibrate it, then test all the cars the same. This minimizes varriance and any other potential bias in the testing.

Uhhh yeah, I don't think I would involve ANYONE in council or district for that matter until you know exactly what you are dealing with! All you are inviting is a witch hunt that will at BEST result in the "offending" scout being kicked out of the unit, at worst it will kill and dismantle your entire unit. I'm not saying you don't address it, but to suggest a paid scouter needs to be informed (or that the police be called!) is a HUGE leap on very little, second-hand information. First, from the OP - this was an overheard conversation from one of their sons. This was NOT a son coming to a parent and saying, "Hey, so and so was discussing at scouts how to x,y,z... he told me that you can do a,b,c to look at d,e,f...". There is a HUGE difference in this type of reporting and an eavesdropped conversation not intended for the parent's ears. It could be a bad situation or it could be a misunderstanding, or it could be a kid bragging and talking out his hind-parts and scout13 bought the story... Second, what do you hope to accomplish? Before talking to the offending scout or their parents, I would want to talk to my OWN scout and clarify exactly WHAT was discussed. You can probably get a better idea of what you're dealing with once you have a serious discussion with one's OWN son before ratting out someone else's son on hearsay. Finally, it is NOT a YPG issue, unless the scout was looking at or bringing porn into the scout meeting, group, etc... Even if this scout was giving detailed instructions on how to circumvent safeguards and access hard core materials, you would have to show he has intent of using such material to influence / abuse his fellow scouts for it to be considered any type of "grooming". Painting this kid as a potential pedophile will do nothing to resolve the issue and will likely inflame a sensitive issue without adding anything constructive to the situation. If it was me and my child running into these murky waters.... 1) Talk to your boy, find out what REALLY went on. If he is not sure, then YOU cannot be sure. Action would be limited to trying to get an ad hoc SM conference to discuss the following with ALL scouts... a) what is and is NOT acceptable topics for discussions at scouting events b) What actions will be taken in the future if unacceptable topics are brought up in the future (i.e. call and discuss with scouts parents) c) Leave it be and readdress only if need be in the future 2) If after talking with your son, you feel the scout WAS giving instructions, then I would be in favor of a, b, & c above, and add a private SM with the offending scout and let him know in no uncertain terms that ANY other issue in the future will be grounds for dismissal from the troop. Weigh the reaction of the scout and then determine if a private chat with the boy's parent(s) would help or hinder the situation. I'm not in favor of keeping secrets from a boys parents, but unless you know for sure what he was actually doing was training fellow scouts vs. bragging or lying to impress other boys, then I say you give the benefit of the doubt and provide a chance for the kid to correct his behavior and save face. Long term, it will keep communication between you and your own son and yourself and other scouts open and respectable in the future. You go running to the council or cops and no one (scouts or adults) are EVER going to trust you in confidence with a sensitive issue. You go running to the parents with unsubstantiated claims about their son, I see it blowing up in your face. A defiant parent who doesn't care about their son's porn viewing will likely turn it around on you and could even accuse you or your son as being the one who was bringing up the topic at the scout meeting. Best course in my book is address the issue without being accusatory. Make it a learning experience about "trustworthy" to oneself. After all, eventually these boys will be able to look at porn online if they want to (at home, at college, as adults). A better lesson might be a discussion about what is harmful about it, WHY people view it, what are the dangers, and being accountable to oneself and one's own god about it.

I don't know about the form, but YES you can have a military doc do your physical. We used to do them all the time for scouts on the military bases when I was active duty. Dean

"While the Scouts who see their adult win or do well in a competition will or might see him or her as some sort of super hero? What take home message do the Scouts who watch their adult leader lose bring home?" Hopefully, they get a lesson in how to be a gracious winner OR looser, whichever the case may be. It was done as a way to spice up an otherwise "boring" hike as defined by most youth. Kids in general do not like to hike for the sake of hiking. They want a goal, be it geocaching, finding a hidden landmark along the trail, etc... My scouts regularly pick up small sticks along the way and play like they are "rough riders" on the trail during hikes.... yes, I know G2SS says you can't use a stick as a simulated gun, but come on... they 'invent' games to play - remember scouting is a game with a purpose? Heck, the rabbit-n-jackyl hike was taken directly from a "stalking" and tracking game listed in my old BSA handbook! I think it has more to do with the spirit in which the 'competetion' is done, than the fact an adult is involved. It pushes the youth to try harder, ad it just MIGHT get some of these old scouters to exercise enough to get out of their 3XL size scout uniform for once in their life! I'm not in the best shape, but trying to outrun, outscamper a bunch of 11 year olds is a good motivation to keep after it. Better than standing on the sidelines, drinking coffee and watching the waistline expand! Heck, we play ultimate frisbee with mixed youth / adult and we have tug-o-war rope at pack meetings. The scouts WANT a dad or two involved and usually want them on the anchor position. Scouting should be FUN! for all involved and all should be involved, not just directing from the sidelines.... heck, my cubmaster trainer told us all, "Your job is to act like a 12 year old again". Its the best (and only) payment I receive from this job!

In general, I agree with the premise of adult vs. scout and big scout vs little scout is a bad idea. The one exception I would make is in regards to a personal best measured versus a leader with an incentive award. As a leader who has on occasion had to push a group of cubbies on a hike to go farther or quicker than they thought possible.... We had an adult in the front and one in the back of the group. I was the "rabbit" and scouts were the "jackyls". I got a 2 minute head start up the trail (day hike, 2.5 mile and roughly 1000 ft evelation gain). Any 'jackyl' that could beat the 'rabbit' to the top of the hill got a special treat (soda instead of gatorade). It is quite a surprise to see how motivated a bunch of 10 year olds can get to beat a 40 year old up a hill. It was as much about bragging rights as the prize. The bonus is many of the scouts posted better times and put out more effort than they would have had it just been a "hike". Sometimes a boy needs a little motivation to push past their comfort zone in a given task. A beat the leader competition is a great way to do this and it keeps the LEADERS on their game too. So long as its done in good fun, I see no problem with it.

Not sure of the reasons behind BSA's policy change, but I would have been more in favor of a training course than an outright "ban". Hard to teach survival skills when the whole "This is how to make an improvised stove" part becomes just textbook and no more hands on training. But alas, it seems the "adventure" of scouting is on a constant downslope to "project management" coursework, but I digress... As someone who majored in Chemistry in my undergrad days, I see no inherent danger with alcohol over white gas or any other liquid fuel. The danger is in poor construction and no on/off switch and no way to prevent / reverse an uncontrolled burn. Then again, a flame gets to a compromised pressure canister and you don't need worry about an uncontrolled burn, just the big bang and shrapnel that comes with an exploding canister! Then again, the risk of a compromised canister is probably less than a compromised pop-can stove. Coleman white gas burns pretty much clear if dumped out on a table / ground and lit. I assume it does the same on human skin, much as alcohol does. In fact, it has a higher vapor pressure and boiling point, so in theory it will not evaporate as readily as alcohol. At least with ethyl or isopropyl, if it gets spilled and not cleaned up, it will evaporate given enough time and air current. White gas sticks around a lot longer. That being said, I like my coleman backpacker whisperlight stove. Its not as small as an MSR, but you carry stove and fuel all in one, it can run on unleaded gas if need be without any conversion kit, AND it doesn't loose pressure / effectiveness at high altitude or low temps. Sucks trying to make coffee on a cold winter morning and the dang mini-propane won't push out enough fuel to keep the burner lit. Like most things in scouts, DIY stoves, pioneering, patrol campouts, "adventure" and "responsibility" has been shoved aside in favor of litigation avoidance. Hard to build young men of character when they are limited on what they are allowed to "test" themselves. Can't make a hasty fire on the ground anymore (LNT) and can't use a makeshift stove.... guess the survival-man way is to just freeze and go hungry now?

If I am not mistaken, the colors for the cub and Boy Scout version of the religious knot are slightly different. I'll have to look in my insignia guide when I get home. I know there is a difference in color for the youth and adult religious knot. Other than the religious knot, the ONLY other thing a scout may transfer from cub scouts to boy scouts is the Arrow of Light. Dean

I have LOTS of thoughts about this, none very positive.... But hey, if the spanish speakers want Woodbadge, then good for them. Kinda like the whole "soccer after school" experiment. BSA sees an untapped, under-utilized resource (the ever growing, hispanic, catholic population) and like many retailers of goods, they are looking for a way to tap into an emerging market. The heavy emphasis on family and religion in most of hispanic culture dovetails well with BSA's stated goals and aims. Why does this concern me? Well, now some of my FOS donation and my son's annual payment to national will be being used to support the printing of non-english materials. They use too few of the $$ to support direct program for scouts, now here's something else they will spend $$ on for adults and not scouts. You want to print bi-ligual literature? Start with handbooks and merit badge pamphlets!!! Can't say I'm too surprised given Mazzucca's track record in "leadership" of our organization. Sheesh...