dan

IF you are going to have a boy lead troop. Start with it, if you decide that you are going to let them watch the adults do it first, and wait for the scouts to have JLT first, it will never become a completely boy run troop. NeiLlUp, I am going to throw some stones at you, please take a deep breath, before you respond, I only do this to help andrewcaone. The SPL should have been standing in front of the flipchart, running the meeting, not an adult. The SM should have meet with the SPL before the meeting, to set the expectations for the meeting. Just because an adult is an Eagle scout, it does not mean they understand boy lead. Look at the reporting structure in the SM handbook, have the PLs report to the SPL, have the correct POR report to the ASPL. Give the scouts the job descriptions from the JLT book for there POR, so that they know what the job is. Be prepared to help these scouts out using the reporting structure, have the ASPL help and guide the Historian. Be prepared to sit down with these scouts and tell them where they need to improve. If they are not doing anything tell them so. If they do not do anything with the POR, do not count the POR for advancement, we do the scouts no favors by letting them slide by with a POR. Never train a scout when another scout could train him. Have the PLC create agendas for meetings and campo

A also have a few questions and of course comments. I had this same discussion last Monday night with an "old" Wood Badger, he took the old course and was QM for the new course this year. He was saying how the old course was so much better. I asked him what was the difference between the courses, he stated that the "old" Wood Badge was more like JLTC (which we both staffed) There was not much difference between JLTC and the New Wood Badge, except the course where more directed at youth versus adults. We meet in dining flies just like they did in JLTC. When the troop meet for Wood Badge we either meet in a barn or in a huge dining fly, at JLTC when the troop meet it was in a dining fly. So what the difference. The issue of time also came up in this thread. The New Wood Badge is a 6 day course either done over two weekends or a week long, was the "Old" Wood Badge longer? I guess the issue about the corporate logos and pentagon logos did not bother me, since I really do not remember them. I have had most of the training that I got in Wood Badge through my work, but the Wood Badge course was a lot more fun. And it was a good refresher for me.

I learned that 13 year old scouts are not strong enough to portage a canoe. I learned that portage is not a French word meaning uphill both ways. If you carry a canoe UP 200 feet, you are going to have to carry it down at least 190 feet or 210 feet. A beautiful walk in the woods is ruined with a canoe on your head. No matter where you place a lightweight stove in camp at least one person will not see it and try to walk over it. No matter how much spice you put in dehydrated food, most of it is still bad. Dehydrated food will keep you very regular. Would not change one thing about this trip!

FOG It just has to be all about you doesn't it. That was a good one though, I saw the smiley face on the i empower myself joke.

dsteele Take a deep breath, not breath slowly, inhale, exhale. I keep my expectations low when a certain poster posts. And I really mean L O W and he usually meets them! The problem is sometimes he has good points, but I just ignore them, because it is him, and I read the negative into them, that are not there. Now the real problem is that there are other posters on this board that have told him that they like his posts and his thoughts on these forums, so I cannot place the blame entirely on him. He is being empowered by these other posters. I would not have much of an issue with him, if we where all adults posting here, but I really worry about the youth that read his posts. Glad to see you still have time to post, but 4:30 in the AM you should be sleeping! Good Luck with you drive. I guess it was not beneath me!

OGE Whew, I got off track when you posted I have no problem with troops defining what succesfully defines completion of a POR I thought you where saying to add to the desc. as we discussed, take 20 pitcures a month and place in a scrapbook. evmori I think I was also reading to much into what you where saying.

OGE I sit with the scouts and work with them on what they are going to work on, and than I follow up to see what and how they are doing, giving hints and pats on the back. But this is all done verbally, some scouts write them down and some do not. Know for the hard part, your questions. How many pictures is adequate? I do not see how you can put a number on this, 8 from a campout, 50 per 6 months, this should be something that each historian should add to, so a scout takes 50 pitcures and one turns out, I would not say he did a bad job as a historian. Cars leaving the parking lot? One would be plenty! The point I am trying to make (poorly) is that you cannot (really it should be should not) write up additonal tasks for the scout to do like polish the trophies once a month, it should just be stated as needed. As leaders it is our job to guide the scout to see that they need to be polished, not write a timetable for them. I would do this all verberally or through email, not adding on to the job desc.

Are you saying that these all should be written down as the requirements to complete the POR? Add ons to the the job desc.?

BBQ turkey? I guess I have to ask what is BBQ in California? I am thinking of a turkey covered in Bar B Que sauce! Cooked over an open fire.

my expectations where meet

Historian Gather pictures and facts about past troop activites. Take care of troop trophies, ribbons, ... Keep information about former members. Sets a good example. Enthusiastically wears the Scout Uniform. Lives by the Scout Oath and Law. This was done by memory so it may not be correct, but it should work for the example.

evmori I do not see how uniforms and attendance are anything alike? Sorry, but I do not get the point you are making. Uniforms are a method. Attendance is?!? I would love to see all scouts at every event, but I know this is not going to happen, but I will do everything in my power to get them to come to every event. By trying to help the PLC and SM create a fun program that the scouts want to come to.

OGE you wrote I have no problem with troops defining what succesfully defines completion of a POR Is this not already spelled out within the POR job descriptions from the BSA? Are you saying that these are not good enough? Are you saying that you want ot add to these requirments or subtract from the? Sorry do not see a place for more troop rules or guidelines for POR.

OGE Was that a brick?

evmori I have no doubt that you would do everything in your power to get a scout a uniform. (thats a good thing!) I am talking about a unit that is not as well off as we are, since we are all posting on the internet I am assuming that we all have computers, there are units out there where the families cannot afford clothes yet alone a computer and an internet connection. If the BSA made the uniform required, there maybe boys out there that may never get to be a Boy Scout that wanted to be, because the uniform is required and the family has better things to spend the money on. This is why I feel that the BSA does not make the uniform a requirement. You really seem to be hung up on the fact that the uniform is not a requirement, do you see how this could do more harm than good if it was a requirement? As leader we have the tools from the BSA to guide the scouts to wear a full uniform without making it a rule.

evmori I guess I will keep asking this. Do you agree that some scouts cannot afford uniforms and by making them required, could force these scouts out of Boy Scouts? Would you drive these scouts out of scouting because they cannot afford a complete uniform? Should we not use positive reinforcement to encourage uniforming? Do we really have to confuse uniforming with attendance! I do not understand why I see so many units only wearing the scout shirt and a hat, I do not understand why these units feel they can change the uniform standard? The correct uniform is spelled out in the Boy Scout Handbook and the Scoutmaster Handbook. This does not seem any different to me than changing the requirements for advancements. If a unit feels they can change the uniform than why not the requirement for Life Scout? Aw heck I know it says 6 hours of service hours, but this unit only requires 1 hours, I do not see the difference. Another pet peeve is calling it a Class B uniform, I understand what you are trying to say, but where can I find out what a Class B uniform is? As I read through the handbook, it say a Sport activity uniform, is this another reason we need units rules and gudielines? Because the handbook does not dicuss Class Bs? We have to make troop rules and guidelines to tell them what a Class B is instead of calling it a Sport Activiy uniform? Hey pamaha are you still out there? If you stay around you will learn a lot about the BSA! If you follow the correct path!

twocubdad You need to work on your delivery! Webelos should ask, will I have fun? And how will I have fun? Can I play with fire and knives? What equipment will I need?

Number of eagles? Why would you ask that question?

Did you find some wiggle room in that one? I am sure you can bend the rules if you want, I would rather follow them, or try to get them changed.

pamaha Put on your thick skin before you read this one! I do this to make you think about some of the rules. ALL scouts and families MUST participate in order to belong to the troop So a scout cannot do the fundraiser this year, death in the family, hes out, or do you have a list of excused non fundraisers excuses also! See the problem with a MUST rule? My sons troops ask for a donation if a scout does not participate in the fundraiser. But it is not enforced, because we do not know whats going on with the scouts family life, at all times. Our guide book also states that a scout must notify his PL if he is going to be absent and any scout who has 2 unexcused absences shall be brought up for discussion at the PLC as to his interest in being a part of the troop. WOW 2 whole absences in seven years, so in this case the guide book would also have to spell out what are unexcused absences? Think you could possibly list them all? Do you think the scouts are having fun, coming up with excused absences reasons? Is it OK to have someone attend, literally, 3 meetings in the past year and consider him an active member? YES, I am assuming that the SM is sitting down with this scout and finding out why. If he says I have done it all, a good SM will come up with a job for this scout to keep him from being bored; bluntly the SM is removing excuses. When you build in rules, it becomes a monster that keeps growing to cover all of the exceptions! Use common sense! The SM should be talking with the scouts one on one, to make sure that all is well. Not all scouts have the same needs. Hang around, you will learn alot, like which posters to ignore and which ones to listen to! I am one to ignore, OK!

Outing every month which equals 20 days in tents, 4 days in cabins Jan. and Feb. Jan. is usually the "junk campout" Feb is usually skiing. Add at least 2 sometimes more, for Winterall, Webelos campout, a Camporee or Camporall. 6 nights for summer camp. 5 to 7 nights for High Adventure. Troop usually does 2 to 3 High Adventure per year. Some Scouts do 2 of the High Adventures but they usually skip summer camp if they are doing 2 high adventures.

Evmori I really believe that saying following the methods or rules is completely different that saying a good leader also has to be a good follower. Unless everyone here is saying A good leader has to follow the Aims and Rules of the BSA. And not A good leader has to follow his leadies to make sure the assessment is done to his standard. A good leader will give the assessment and step back and let the job get done. Rooster In your context I agree. But what about the leader that expects the follower to follow his every move? Do everything just as I do it. A good leader could be one that follows the Aims but a bad leader could also follow the Aims. The bad leader may not know how to mentor youths.

Since I give OGE a little dig about not being able to sing, I am going to tell you a little story about my singing. Last Year at the Dec. Court of Honor an ASM came up to me and said we need another person for the leaders skit. I said sure what do you want me to do. He said we are going to sing the 12 days of Summer Camp. I said I cannot sing. They said everybody says that, here is your part. So 13 leaders, 12 singers and one conductor, go up and take our place. On one side of me is George, he is the soloist at church, I thought great, on the other side of me is Craig, Craig is also in the Church choir also went to college because of his singing skills! I had to sing my part 12 times. I have a very deep voice except when I sing then it becomes a cackle. The first time I sang the audience was sitting there was smiles on their faces, boy is he hamming this up. By the 6th time, there was not a dry eye in the house inculding mine! The conductor would look at me when it was my time to sing raise his baton and just shake his head. I had a great time with it. When we where done we where walking back to our seats and Craig looks and me and said you where not kidding you really cannot sign can you! At the next campout at the campfire I asked the SPL if I could do a song at the campfire, he looked at me like I had lost my mind, once I explained that I expected to be booed and heckled off of the "stage" he went along went it and it went just as I planned. Now the big joke is if a patrol does not want to do a skit or song Dan will sing in their place, have not had one not do a skit yet!

SPLT15 Bullet points each action that you will do for a blood drive. Guessamate time for each task. Standing around watching people give blood should not count. Do you have enough hours? How much leadership would it require, asking 2 scouts to hand out cookies is not what I would consider leadership. A blood drive could be an Eagle project, but it would have to go alot further than what I have read so far.

Oh boy know we can discuss ordinary! I say that there are no ordinary scouts! Ed Good one! it made me smile.(This message has been edited by dan)