croushorn

WOW! Catching a guy trying to fake his way through... all I can say, wow. Love to hear about it as well.

When I first came back I really scrutinized all I could about the Ordeal & Brotherhood ceremonies, there's still things guys will ask me about that I just don't remember. I hate it. It took at least two ordeals to get back in the swing, to learn all they had changed over the years including going to a new camp. Frustrating part is I was quite active as a youth, but not as a ceremonialist. Now I come back to the same lodge as an adults and am surrounded with many friends from back in the day, that seem to remember all those stories you wish were forgotten! But yeah, you will pick up a LOT more as an adult than as a youth. You see the wisdom in the lessons much more. Unless you are a ceremonialst, that is. My son has played just about every part we have and can explain it all on the fly. I love how so many of the lodge leadership are invovled in ceremonies versus just a few in my day. It makes a huge difference.

WOW! Catching a guy trying to fake his way through... all I can say, wow. Love to hear about it as well.

When I first came back I really scrutinized all I could about the Ordeal & Brotherhood ceremonies, there's still things guys will ask me about that I don't remember. I hate it. It took at least two ordeals to get back in the swing, to learn all they had changed over the years including going to new camp. Frustrating part is I was quite active as a youth, but not as a ceremonialist. Now I come back to the same lodge as an adults and am surrounded with many youth friends. So yeah, you pick up a LOT more as an adult than you do as a youth. You see the wisdom in lessons much more. Unless you are a ceremonialst, that is. My son has played just about every part we have and can explain it all on the fly. I love how so many of the lodge leadership are invovled in ceremonies versus just a few in my day. It makes a huge difference.

Or as I've been told, "An Eagle on your resume means something. Summer Honors, OA, or Philmont doesn't." All some folks look for is for their little Johnny to build the best resume.

Twisted - sure. There are lots of groups that aggressively smear BSA any chance they get. I'll just leave it at that.

I think the 2nd one is the approach Mazzuca is taking; it's about time. Let's see hwo well we do when we start defining ourselves to America, instead of letting others do it for us in their own twisted way!(This message has been edited by Ursus Snorous Roarus)

Gern - how often have you heard this from parents? I just find it interesting that Ive been back in Scouting for about 10 years and only heard it once. That was from an ASM that was just talking with me about how he didnt agree with it, not that it would prevent his family from taking part. Im certainly not going to say youre wrong like others do on this forum, I guess Im surprised to hear that there are many parents that feel that strongly to keep their kids out. Core of society? Thats a broad brush, dont be so certain about that. But then again, maybe I just havent been approached about it or maybe we just dont think that way here in fly-over country.

lynn I think you are approaching this correctly. Apparently some in your unit has decided a change is needed, so someone has to step up and tell this sitting CC. Make the COR that guy and it will go a lot more smoothly. You all need to work together on a routine basis, the conflict that may arise from asking someone to step aside may go bad and embarrass him. Hopefully he wont take offense and sticks around to contribute without malice. Like acc says, most COs just wants things to smoothly and quietly and arent usually interested in the inner politics of the Scout unit. If possible, I would try and do this at your unit's recharter time, it will allow a greater transition, and the outgoing to save face by exiting gracefully.

Sorry E92 - I made the same assumption. Heck, if that's the case then it sounds like your chapter needs a motivated and experienced advisor!! Actually, that's how I got a lot done as well, just keep working under the radar. Be involved; make some constructive yet subtle changes and encouragements. That's what a lot of these Arrowmen need, is just someone to take an interest in what they're doing and have some fun with them. They can smell an adult a mile away, so don't be one. Be their friend and you can inspire and guide them so much easier. I look forward to when my time as SM winds down and can offer to be lodge advisor (have a few more I need to see get their Eagle first). The OA is so much daggone fun for me and the young men I've gotten to know really inspires me that our country isn't in as bad of shape as a lot seem to think. It's really funny, two boys I've stuck a very good relationship over the past two years I knew nothing about. As it turns, neither has a father. I'll be watching them both with pride as they hold their Vigil this fall.

Frankly, what you are doing isnt your role. Calling the boys to assist in driving arrangements and candidate information meetings (?) is something the chapter Arrowmen should be doing. A parent answering the phone may be a little more agreeable to another youth calling than an adult. While its wonderful you are promoting the OA and trying to improve involvement of a large troop, but the Chapter Chief, some of his officers, and advisors should be doing this. When they go around to do elections they need to promote and market the OA to the Troops.

Now, if you want to do something to help, make a point next time you are having casual talk with the SM about why the resistance. Ask for him to help some with the situation. Then pass that info to your chapter Arrowmen and hopefully they can build some bridges into the unit. Have the Chief or one his officers really work on getting that one kid involved (really his Elangomat should do this), set your hooks in him and others will follow. But the root of the problem needs to be found. Scouts build many of their attitudes from the adult leadership of the troop, so someone there has a strong dislike about the OA and has apparently poisoned a lot of people about it.

It's pretty sad, really. We are a medium sized council and I'm involved with a lot of our council events for Boy Scouts, inlcuding weekly at summer camp, OA, U of Scouting, camporees, etc.... I can seriously think of maybe 20 black adults and maybe that same amount of black youths in our Council. Let's say I'm missing quite a few and there's 100. There's over 500 Boy Scouts in our District alone, which includes a city of about 30k population! Wow do we need to do better than that.

3 to 4 hours is plenty.

SR: so whats the difference between summer camp staff and NYLT staff? Aren't both Boy Scout Programs?

See that is my point - we've opened the door to under 18 girls to work on staff, so where does it stop? And outside of the boy scouts is for boys position which rings very true with me, Im not so sure it should stop. As weve beat on pretty good, if girls are qualified and capable staff members, why can't they be capable and qualified instructors for NYLT or other programs? or participants for that matter?? Heck, I want my teenage girl to learn about these wonderful leadership skills as much as I want our boys to. They will help her as much as them. Its tough to draw a line because they have that birth defect of being female (thats a joke!).

Jet agreed with your & BWWWs suppositions! But unfortunately they are just that. If the argument is about the wording is the wording is the wording then it is what it is, as you said in your last sentences. To me, and Ill take heat for this, I feel this is an area that we can relax some of the dos and donts for the benefit of the boys. Use at your own discretion.

OGE I am too! But mebee I missed it as that little squelch function is pretty effective.

Neil we dont have our OA Rep wear his sash at normal troop functions. But at the RT and otherwise, yes, he wears his sash.

GW good point, but sneaking one in here and there is well worth it. Whod imagine something so gratifying can come from something so simple.

For what it's worth (which I don't feel is all that much...):

In 2003 printing of the OA Handbook (my most recent copy), top of page 58:

The sash is to be worn at Order of the Arrow functions and special Scouting activities, when members need to be identified as Arrowmen rendering special services."

In 2004 printing of Insignia Guide (again, my most recent copy), bottom of page 46 it only references that the OA sash is not to be worn with the merit badge sash.

Thats it, as simple as that. Is there any other place it would be addressed?

E92: please tell us about your First Year Arrowman Award. Thanks!

We did a video conference for one of my Eagle candidates at his District BOR. Our District has some goofy rules concerning paperwork deadlines and he missed it for the last BOR prior to leaving for college. His school was about 5 states away and other than Dad coming up with a grand for airline tickets this was the only way it would work. This was in the fall and he wasnt planning on coming home over Christmas (money decision). So it was either something of this nature or wed have to wait until spring semester ended. But that wouldve been longer than 6 months from age 18, which gets everyone excited. Dad set it up at his office one Sunday afternoon, his candidate son borrowed a web cam from a buddy and we were off to the races. Our District Adv. Chair said it was acceptable and it worked very well. Very little was lost in the communications. Not exactly perfect, but pretty close. So as a last resort it will work just fine.

Oh - Mother pinned on his Eagle pin at that Christmas's COH.

"OA all over is dying."

Wow; sorry to read that, what is it based upon? Are there published membership number anywhere? Our lodge is flourishing and numbers are up annually, ceremonies are more common, better, repeat quality lodge, all indicators I can think of are pointing to success. But I do know that's not the case for the rest of our section, our conclaves are a joke. Not because of lacking fancy new camps, just poorly planned and NO FUN!

Eagle92 just hit a homer with his ideas, many of the same things we had to do a few years back to bring our lodge back to life. It's like any other part of Scouting, make it fun and the numbers grow.

"PL's undermined by SPL who has the QM running off doing something while his patrol is short-handed trying to do something. "

That is exactly why I pull the troop QM into the leadership patrol - he needs to be involved with the whole troop and can't if he is in one of the Scout patrols. He also works with each patrol's QM, thereby getting a lot of leadership and delegation experience.

"SPL sitting around with basically nothing to do 90% of the time. The tendency would be to want to run the Troop so by doing so he will automatically undermine all the PL's and start micro-managing the patrols. Patrol 1 does this, patrol 2 does that, patrol 3 does something else, etc. etc."

I'm with you on a lot of this, but think maybe you're short changing the benefits of the SPL role both to your troop and the young man in the position. No - not undermining PLs: observing and supporting. Giving direction to keep all patrols working in the same direction, getting feedback to help the PLC make better decisions and come up with program ideas that may not be apparent to the PLs. Keeping the meeting running on time and making sure all the little things get done in a typical evening meeting. Approving menus and duty rosters to make sure all looks good. I look at it is a managerial role versus supervisory. When he sees problem areas arising then he and the ASPL can get more involved in assisting the PL to learn how to deal with it. If all was perfect, you bet, he maybe sitting around 50% of his time doing nothing, but we know that isnt going to happen! And in those few slivers of time when he can stop for a minute and take a breather, thats when he, his ASPL, myself, and even QM can talk about things, maybe just goof around a little and I can see how hes doing. Thats the fun time I get to have with him and them and where I get to really strengthen my relationship with the junior leaders at.

BW: Sorry youre so confused, dont make a mountain out of a mole hill. Yes, youre right, I did suggest it because it would appear to me that it is the next logical step. Weve defined the actual rule based upon the interpretation of the finest of grammar and punctuation, so now what?

Look, it appears to me you enjoy the academic discussion and the art of debate, and thats fine. I appreciate more the application of what I read and learn here. I dont pretend to know much, other than what has worked for me in my specific little world. I come here to learn and grow, and maybe be able to deal with future situations better or help out others that are struggling with places Ive been. So while some discuss/debate/argue about exact wording and rule of this or that, I prefer to see how those wordings actually apply to what I do as a leader, and maybe more importantly to me anyway is how those interpretations effect the boys were supposed to be doing this for. I cant believe the typical tenor of many of these threads is what LBP had in mind 100 years ago. And, quite frankly, is why this forum drives away a lot of incredible and experienced Scouters from constructively contributing. But thats just my opinion, which Im sure someone will take me to task on.

All this is cool, dont get your skirt so ruffled man relax go teach a kid a knot.

Wow, I haven't thought about tearing corners for years, I think I need to resurrect that one.

I loved it when our summer camp trading post finally started enforcing that they needed their card to buy a knife! I had Star & Life Scouts coming to me to sign their letter that they had their Totin Chit and were eligible to buy one!

So how do you all deal with visiting or incoming Webelos that have their Whittling Chit and are carrying knives? Suddenly they aren't allowed to use one?

Its Me:

Agreed = sounds like youve prepped as much as possible, time to put it into action. Dont be so hard on yourself, youve taught the theory but the skepticism will last long until they see results thats human nature. Be ready for the naysayers and thats not the way weve always done it Time for a Dr. Phil moment: So hows that working for ya? I hope you have a thick neck, because you'll need it. Sounds like your adult leadership is with you, which will really really help, they all just need someone to guide them through putting the theory into practice.

My troops experiences are that we dont use a new Scout patrol and intersperse all ages. Outside of a few hard rules split brothers, try and split/keep together beneficial/detrimental friendships, I randomly spread them out. Only six month terms and they cant have the same POR two consecutive terms or hold more than one POR (luckily with about 25 guys we are deep enough to cover them all). We hold SPL elections early spring and fall, he picks his ASPL & QM. That gives me a week to adjust the patrols to return the past leaders back into weaker patrols where they are NOT allowed to be PL or APL. Where we try to get them to learn leadership without authority and support the new PL leadership. If I need to move others around that is the time to do so, and then they have PL elections. Weve expanded and contracted between three and four patrols over the years, currently three with pretty good depth. The SPL, ASPL, & QM are part of our leadership patrol with me & ASMs. We cook for those guys on campouts so they can relax some, get a great meal, spend time with us to talk and vent while still keeping an eye on the patrols, gear, and other PORs. Plus visiting adults are a part of our patrol as well so they can stay away from their little Johnny, see our interactions, and learn a little more about our leader development. Im not saying its perfect, but keeping this kind of plan has helped things go fairly smooth over the years.

BW: Nobody has. What moved me was that I DO find it interesting, even sickly enjoy reading how some can expend such excitement going back and forth arguing and doing more one-ups than my two daughters.

FScout: Ive not seen Scouts wearing both at the same time either. While I have seen plenty of Scouts wearing their sash with their MB sash on their belt. That seems ok with the uniform police.

"It seems to me that a court of honor is about the individual honors, achievements, and advancement of each individual Scout in the unit. Court's of Honor are often attended by extended family members that may not be familiar with the program and insignia of Scouting. For Arrowmen to be wearing their OA sash makes the statement, IMHO, that there is something special about these Scouts. "

Wonderfully said, I wanted it printed again. Anyone that should come into one of my Troop's Eagle Courts of Honor to tell any of our Scouts, certainly the new Eagle, that he can't wear his OA Sash will politely but firmly be asked to sit down and be quiet or they can leave. There must be something more important to haggle over than this.

Its Me:

Not sure your specific role in all this, but if I were in your shoes and as SM:

1.) I'd make it very clear to the troop committee that the patrol method is the way the troop will be organized and operated. If they aren't willing to accept that then my resignation would be in their hands within minutes. Give it up as you will never be happy watching the train wreck occur. However, if they are, then there will be many forthcoming changes that will draw the ire of a lot of parents and boys. You may lose some of them. But for nearly 100 years this method is tried and true and without it in place for a troop this size means doom. You are seeing the indicators of this developing already and its only going to get worse. Dont let the guys from folded troops bring their failed methods to your unit.

2.) I'd have a sit down with this SPL and say the same to him, with the only difference being that if he isn't willing to accept it that his replacement will. While we wish to promote when at all possible a boy-lead unit, it still needs to be adult guided. The organizational decisions should be made by the SM with the input of his ASMs, Committee, and PLC, but ultimately is the SM responsibility.

Sounds like you all need some serious training as soon as possible: Fundamentals, Troop JLT, NYLT, Woodbadge, Committee. Get some help from your UC or other experienced Scouters in your District quickly!

Just returned from SeaBase, they are wrapping up their program season for the year. My perception was that easily half, maybe more, was girls. All staff was over 18. Majority of staff had tattoos, hard to hide in bathing suits. My guys stumbled onto two staffers (male/female) one evening 'sharing' their camaraderie.