croushorn

(This message has been edited by Ursus Snorous Roarus)

"What you keep missing... "

What I keep missing? What I keep reading is that people here keep telling others that they have no way to sound their issues of concern. Yes, in my district if I call my DE she will gladly talk to me about my concerns - regardless of my volunteer title or lack thereof and without passing the buck. That is her role - to support the units of her district and participate in finding resolutions when concerns are aired - regardless of who is raising it (good old customer service!). She is there to help out, whether she delegates it to a concerned district committee volunteer member or the UC (if there is one). Doesn't sound familiar at all, as I have a great relationship with a great Scouting professional that is involved with all of our unit leaders, not just the ones with the right titles.

So I ask again, why are some so eager to draw the line in the dirt and keep out those that do this stuff for a living?

"It seems logical to me that the decision to seek advice from the district level is one that should be made by the CR/IH -- and possibly also by the CC -- but not by the ASM. "

Let me get this straight - If I'm an ASM I'm not allowed to get advice from anyone on the District level about particular situations? Wow, glad I'm not an ASM. No, then again, glad I'm in the District I am as we are actually allowed to talk to each other.

"But you do not get to decide if the scout advances or not. That authority belongs to the board of review."

BW question As I go down the list for the requirements of Eagle Scout rank, #5 is the Eagle project. So as SM, if I dont accept the project, and thereby dont accept that requirement #5 is complete, at that point the Scout is prevented from finishing the remainder of the requirements - short a SM conference which both prevents completion of the paperwork and from getting a date with the BOR right?

Doesn't he have an advisor or mentor thats been working with him through this project?

I would agree, dont sign off on it, assuming he has the write up at that point. Then he needs to start all over again from the beginning and try and get it right this time. Sounds like you have plenty of others in agreement to taking this stand. The boy needs to understand that he has caused this. That said, I would let him know now so that there is still a chance, as slight as it may be, that he can recover. With 45 days to go he has some serious work ahead of him if he wants to, that is(This message has been edited by ursus snorous roarus)

"Now when a scout wants to seal his membership in the OA by going through the brotherhood ceremony, then yes, perhaps those questions are then applicable. "

By whom? The unit has no say in a Scout pursuing his Brotherhood.

Funny how times change. Back in the day, most, if not all leaders smoked and dont dare consider calling an adult by his first name. Some of the first time my Scouts hear me called by my first name from other youth is at OA events, some are visibly taken aback by it. Recently, I recruit a past Eagle (early 30s) who found himself with an instant family through marriage and wanted a Troop for his new step son. I sign him up as an ASM but hes a little rough around the edges. Smokes has a few tattoos some of his military stories arent always appropriate But boy does he relate to the guys and has shown them the passion for Scouting I just cant present. Some parents gripe about his impression, and I share those concerns but think I do a fair job of keeping him in balance; but theres definitely a line between him and some of our parents. Funny.

From the adult application:

" Leadership Requirements

The applicant must possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. The applicant must also be the correct age, and subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle, and abide by the Scout Oath or Promise, and the Scout Law. "

I think Council's 'authority' very much goes beyond just YP issues. I personally would fully involve the DE at a minimum when there are issues within the Troop leadership. If for no other reason so they are aware of what is going on; at best they can give you some good unbiased advice. At worst they are put on notice that there may be bigger problems building within the unit that may eventually warrant their interjection. Not so sure about the rest of you, we haven't had a unit commish in about the past 5 years, if we dont count a snow bird as an active commish even longer than that. So I don't have a non-unit or non-CO member to bounce these issues off of other than the DE. Luckily places like this forum and other Scouting relationships can help with these kind of dilemmas. I am continually surprised by some folks attitudes and outright resentment towards their Council. Are they going to be perfect in all of our eyes all the time? Heck no. Do you get along all the time with everyone you work with? They are the professionals and should be able to assist when problems arise. Dont be so eager to lock them out.

We are involved in the weekly tapouts at camp and wear our sash all day on OA Day (brotherhood projects, meals, ceremonies...). Even with all the dirt and kerosene soot that gets on the sashes, a simple washing with other whites in cold does the trick and they come out as good as new. But have noticed the red thread slightly fraying towards the end of the summer season. Just gives us a reason to buy a new one and donate the older ones to a needy Brotherhood candidate. We hang them up to dry to keep from shrinking. My wife started doing that after I complained about them creeping up in my armpit. She blames it instead on my shirt stretcher.

"But choosing the leader and removing the leader is the units responsibility, not the councils."

How about a pretty specific "what if":

A SM behaves in a manner described in another thread by preventing a Scout from attending dinner, using what some would identify as profane language, and violating YP... if the committee doesn't have a problem with that (don't be so sure they wouldn't), can there be no recourse from Council?

Let's say upon notification of the incident, Council would 'strongly recommend' the CO replace the SM based upon the three issues.

But if the CO digs in their heels and refuses, what then? Pull their charter? Refuse to accept his app the following recharter year?

Yep, been told the same: can't get enough boys to apply, or at least enough qualified ones. We've had girls on staff for about 10 years now and for the most part they do as good or as poor as our boys do... that's not a surprise as the bell curve applies for both as should the same standards for both. As an employer, there are age and gender laws the local council needs to obey today that reasonable minds didn't force on us back in the day.

My issue with girls on staff is the distractions it causes the boys, plain and simple, for both Scouts and other Staff. It's usually not the girls' behavior that is the problem, it's just what their presence does to the boys. In those situations when there's a 50-100 to 1 ratio of boys to girls, some girls can take advantage of the extra attention they're getting. And if the directors don't stop that immediately there's real problems brewing. They've had to fire more than one staffer for sneaking into the wrong tent after taps. Running camp is difficult enough for these young men; with the added complications of female staff it can really add to it. While the issue isnt going away, it calls for strenuous control and oversight. And I say all this with a 14 year old that wants to join HER brother on staff next year

Bull its not too late: you can tear that card up just as easily as you signed it. And if youve already turned the card in, explaining to the troop advancement committee or committee chair I am almost certain most would agree to review the situation. I would spend a few more minutes with the Scout to really try to get to the bottom of it. Quietly bring in another leader or two to cover your back. Lay on the A Scout is Trustworthy part thick. Still, youll get to a point where that will only go so far and if he keeps denying it then you have to let it go. Remember there is a chance what you were told isn't the whole story, intential or not.

It's easier to cheat because getting your clothes wet in the shower is much easier than struggling with an intimidating task, especially for a weaker swimmer.

Setting up additional testing of the skill can be a real challenge and the kid can find a way out of that one if he wants to bad enough just forgets to tell M&D about the meeting that night and is a no show. Depending upon the relationships, you may or may not wish to get the parents involved. If you keep dragging this out then it will really look odd to other parents/leaders. Get it resolved one way or another and move on. he never liked me anyways and now has proof. Or comments from other leaders why is he so hard on Johnny? with numerous additional odd events that singled him out. Not a good way to go.

We had a problem at camp with this year of Leatherwork MB with Scouts showing counselors projects others had made. We alerted staff immediately, hope it made a difference.

We also had an incident a few years back at a national event within our contingent. I was ready to let it go, but another adult leader kept pushing a very respected group of our highest junior leaders and finally they admitted to us they were lying and covering for each other concerning stealing (very dumb - took freebees from a closed booth). It was rough, but quite an experience for them and us. Afterwards some of them approached me and apologized. At that point I was still angry as I thought we had a better relationship than that. I told them I once lied to my beloved Scoutmaster. He busted me for lying over a very simple and stupid thing, but I wouldnt admit it to him. I regret it to this day and still see the disappointed look on his face when I wouldnt come clean. I hoped sharing my experience would complete the lesson for them. Since then all those guys have gone on to be the best our council and lodge has. I think they learned.

Of course there are no absolutes, agreed. But greatly disagree concerning there being a disadvantage or hindrance for a boy that is completely new to Scouts, or is a product of a weak Pack or Den. If there are stats available that break down the retention of BS or earned their Eagle that were vs. were not involved in Cub Scouts then the disagreement would be settled. Just following a troops new Scout program for a full year will show many many variables and some critical differences that definitely contribute to how high retention & success (defined) percentage is. And this is a key factor with the Centennial Award, we need to start looking closer at why we lose Scouts and what we can do better to retain them. Working closer with Packs and their Webelo leaders will only become more and more of a part of a Troops annual program.

"If you join the Army is it important to know how to shoot a rifle or march or clean the latrine before joining? "

Are you seriously comparing the military training of an adult to that of a 11 year old boy? Oh, how about for starters the 24 boot camp versus an hour and half once a week for starters...

"There are no prerequisites to joining a troop. No skills are required."

Clear.

"If an unprepared Webelos Scout joins a troop, how is he hindered in any way?"

In any way? How about taking the kid away from Momma for the first time in his life for one?

"If a green kid with no Cub background joins what disadvantage does he have that can't be remedied in 30 days and 1 campout? "

I don't have time to list all the possiblilities. 30 days... Wow I'd love to study your unit's program.

Boy scout skills? What exactly are those?

Look, before we get our skirts all ruffled here, there's a lot of diffences. As simple as those of maturity between ages to as major as comparing the BS handbook and requirements to the that of the Webelo Handbook. Family camping is quite different than Troop camping.

I never thought there was much importance in making sure a Webelos Scout was "prepared" before joining a troop.

Then you are the benefactor of an incredible (and rare) Pack program and/or a very well coordinated Troop program for new Scouts. I wish I could be so lucky!

"The other parts of it -- requiring the Scout to say how he would be active in the OA, etc. I really, really like. "

I think you'll find some of that is tough for a young Scout to do, most non-members don't have any idea what the OA is all about and how it functions inside. Much more than 'will you be attending Ordeals' is a bit much to ask at that point I think.

We were blamed once for leaving a window unlocked in which the church was burglarized through. We meaning all of the Pack, Troop & Girl Scout that meet at our church. Some our Board continually has a hard time differentiating. Turns out the Youth Director had to show some of the old fuddies that the windows are so cheap that the lock can easily be picked from the outside. We werent even in that classroom. Still think they blame us.

I will bend over backwards anytime to improve relations with our CO (however I draw that line at our self appointed COR since he was the ringleader in blaming us for the break-in). Regardless, any adult from the board of the CO should be welcome to join anytime without any issues, but I really do like the idea that they all take the YP on line! If its just another interested church member I may be more inquisitive about motive and require registration. Either way, I would welcome the offer so we can show what we are all about. As always, with parents or visitors we inform them that they are part of the leadership patrol as guests, only there to be observers in the functioning of the troop that weekend, unless something special is going on. We are lucky and many of the elders and board were on the committee or leaders in the Troop when I was a kid, so they have a connection to me and trust that things are going properly.

Kind of a tangent, a fellow Eagle I grew up with is now a minister in a protestant and fairly progressive church. He says the under current is to go/stay away from Scouting as we compete with youth groups, we separate out girls, we cause bad PR with stand on gays & past problems with pedophiles, not enough time spent on bible study, they have no functional control over leaders or program, competing with youth group time/facilities/adults/resources From their perspective, all those issues can be resolved with an active and exciting youth minister, plus they are locking in new members as they mature into adults. So anyways, sad to say the separation described might have been inevitable anyhow. The joint campout may only have confirmed their plans, even if the unit was program perfect that weekend. The DE should be assisting in making sure the CO is clear what the program is all about and preventing the separations mentioned. But sometimes just lose the battle.

Youve received some very valuable advice here! I concur! Ive dealt with this from our Pack as well, when they finish their AOL early and the PACK has scheduled their crossover date for months later Troops dont have any say in the matter (but offer advice as to what has worked best in the past). I prefer February crossovers as they can take part as the big kids in the Pinewood and as a Den in the Klondike. If they crossover before those events, then they miss their PD and for the Klondike are dispersed into our patrols; typically theyre lost in the Scout Skill requirements they cant contribute to and dont know their new patrol members yet. Not a fun day for them. That said, Ive had them come once or twice a month to our Troop meetings to start getting them into the routine and get a better feel for how things work in the BS level. They still do breakout sessions with the ASM & Troop Guide and it makes the transition much smoother. Plus it keeps you from losing them to another troop that has welcomed them to join right away. Unfortunately we do get DLs that are burned out by this time and instead of doing this, they just dont schedule any meetings and the boys quit.

Caution - Depending upon your weather climate you dont want to take a bunch of 10/11 year olds on their first campout out in sub-freezing weather in Jan/Feb and even Mar with the rest of your troop I dont care what others say, theres very very few (none IMO!) boys that age truly prepared to enjoy a winter campout that early in their BS experience. And even as there will be folks that are totally convinced their Johnny Newscout is the exception, there needs to be careful plans for how you are going to manage that first experience in what can be bitter cold. A cold kid on his first campout is easily lost to your troop (took me a hard couple years to learn that one!).

Also be cognizant of how this affects your older guys. Usually in the fall we kind of coast on our campouts as everyone now has a few month or so of camping under their belt and have a clue over what is going on. The homesickness has been dealt with, they know each other well, duties/menus are understood, it can be a calm and fun time. Let the older guys enjoy that while it lasts. They can get a little deflated when were continually asking them to tolerate a bunch of 10 year olds. They have to face that soon enough after crossover, so be careful how much we put on their shoulders. It can drive away your older guys that are tired of seeing continual focus on the new and young kids. So dont forget about them during this time.

Too funny guys, great stuff.

Doing this for service, that would be a worthwhile motive.

For a couple years our lodge made a feeble attempt of using a roadside as a fundraiser. It was an interstate rest stop, and the DOT had such screwy rules it was outright hysterical. Couldnt do any cooking of any type; had to place our trailer so far out of the way that most drivers never saw us; until the rest stop store closed at midnight and opened at 7:00am we had to stop serving coffee or any food that competed with their store. A state employee came out every hour to check to make sure we werent doing anything we shouldnt be and to confirm we actually did have an adult (we had two!) working at all times. All this for a measly couple dollars of donations (actually lost our shirts), greeted a lot of tired grumpy drivers and state employees with attitudes. No thanks, we found something else to do for service the following year.

Fantastic news! This one act alone will cause much more planning and attention to cooking meals than we have encountered over the years. It will force older Scouts to come to actual campouts again! I am ecstatic to hear this! What reasons do we currently have to do patrol cooking vs. troop or adult cooking? or more sight-seeing trips with resturants versus actual camping! For many troops that is their 'normal' campout! Wonderful news.

I came up right after the '72 reqs but had to earn the Skill Awards. I don't know all the differences right now without really digging in, but we didn't have gas stoves or ever use charcoal, good old wood fires everytime. I am trying to get cooking MB added back to our summer camp program, it was a shame they don't offer it. This only give me more ammo! YAHOO!

All great advice! Like best that if he isnt good enough for a rank promotion, dont approve his candidacy. BEFORE the election night, sit down and have a talk with him explaining your decision so at least he is prepared and won't be blindsided by not seeing his own name on the eligibility list. Plus it allows you to tell him what is expected for next year's election. You may want to have this same talk with a parent with a committee member or ASM witness if you are expecting issues to come of it (try and head off any problems at the pass). That said, I rarely need to have that talk because those kids usually make themselves ineligible by failing to meet the camping requirements, anyways.

I am amazed, year after year how well the Scouts do in selecting the right ones. The borderline guys sometimes do fall out, and I need to have a follow up with them that they must remove their flap and no longer wear the sash at events. That will spark about one out of four, but most realize I am correct and remove it. Ive seen Eagle candidates get nailed at District BORs for being flappers. Not pretty. One kid thought they wouldnt approve his Eagle and began crying.

AND remember once the voting is done adult leaders have NO veto privilege! When its voted, its voted. So think through your approvals

Collective weekends for the lodge to have fall ordeal, spring ordeal, and fellowship here and there are better for bringing together the lodge as a whole. Weekly ordeals can spread that out too much. Limited ordeal weekends are more eventful and accomplished as a large group. We support the camp with set up and break down in addition to annual service projects. I cant imagine spreading it out so much, coverage would be a bear with little of the crucially important interaction and fellowship. Our Ordeal weekends are a big blast! Your situation is very complicated, am shocked to hear an Exec would consider shutting down the OA, in fact theres pressure on them to have their lodges to earn Quality Lodges status. Does sound like you all need to get the discussion going a little better and get out the rest of the story to your members.

Your section staff maybe able to assist if your Chief and advisors are having problems. Be careful not to get wrapped up in propagating rumors and contributing to the problems. Try and be part of the solution, your lodge needs you!