croushorn

"We usually had three or four scouts serving as Den Chief at any given time."

WOW... how many were in your troop that you could support that?

Twocubdad: glad I'm not the only one seeing these things!

"I don't have a problem with the two DCs who stayed active in the troop because I was constantly in touch with them."

That's one of my biggest concerns with the position: I don't have the time/ability to monitor the events of another Scouting unit, so I'd need to delegate this to either an on-target ASM or very effective ASPL (possible!?) to stay on top of. I have no older Scouts that have done this well enough to guide a younger one through it. So I need a champion to do it right and be the trailblazer to set the standard. I cannot accept putting a kid in a role out there all by himself without giving him an advisor to fall back on for direction and support. And I am very skeptical that an average M or D DL can be that, without them falling back into their roles of being a M or D...

I would get a few minutes with the CC and have this exact discussion. Unless he is or was an active participant in the past with BORs, he may not realize what is going on or maybe how far this has gotten since he was involved. If you are observing a trend that is nearing the edge of or already fallen outside of the scope of how the BOR should be performed, then it needs to be addressed. You are right about being concerned over the new guy trend that wants to change the way we do things here. So keep it low keyed but back your inquiry to the CC with supportive information. Usually there are District level folks that are dripping with anticipation to come and train your committee on these types of areas, so ask the CC if you could take some initiative and set up one of these trainings. There doesnt need to be a lot of hoopla over it, but its interesting to watch the group dynamics when during training they collectively realize they are doing something wrong

Been reading a lot of posts about the use of Den Chiefs. I have to admit this is one area Ive been frustrated with for about the last 7 years that I cant get a good grip on and utilize effectively. The only time anyone has even attempted to do it in my Troop is when the Scout has a little brother in a den and M or D is the DL; I surmise the parent DL sees it as an easy POR for the Scout and hopefully also sees it as a help for them. But have no idea how much leadership is really being shown. Now, I always try and utilize lessons from my OA days where when at all possible avoid pairing a Scout with a parent as an advisor, and fear that situation can turn into a glamorized gopher role for the DL (which could happen anyways).

So a few interrelated questions for the forum

1.) What criteria do you use to qualify a Scout to be a DC? Like the idea of taking the on-line training first.

2.) What criteria do you put on a DL to get a DC? Would it be acceptable to use as on-line DC training as pre-req?

3.) How do SMs keep in touch with the DL to make sure the DC is doing what he should be? We use the traditional patrol method, so is this a position for the ASPL to monitor or should an ASM/SM? And how? Periodic phone calls, emails, reports from the DC and/or DL?

4.) How do you get the DC to accept his commitment to continuing to be a part of the Troop, but also take on the additional time demands of being an active and reliable leader in the Pack & Den hes assigned to? Sit down with M&D to make sure they understand the scope of the roll and periodic requirements, additional commitment their son is about to make and agree to get him to all of the needed events in addition to those of the Troop?

Please, I am interested in applicable and proven advice and direction from those that successfully use the DC as a POR i.e. real examples, not academic lectures. Thank you!

Neil I only trust an Eagle with one of my daughters a *little* bit more than any other boy (Im an Eagle and I still was a teenage boy. ) But I must say soon-to-be-Eagle son is dating a girl that has two Eagle brothers, good Scouting family just with a different community troop! Its funny now that I think about it how many of kids of my fellow Scouters are dating/engaged/married. Common values apparently, so that is a good thing!

LisaBob on the head once again, weve got some stodgy District folks that need to find a new hobby. It gets to be a real problem after a while.

ScoutingInMyBlood, welcome to the forum.

You face the same issues we do here in the Midwest. One size doesn't fit all. We all do the best we can to keep things going and keep the program flourishing. Life, and Scouting, isn't all textbook, those that actually try and live it once in a while understand that. But there's obviously folks that have lost touch with that or fail to realize they are in a very unique situation. So when they hear the horror stories from us out here in the hinterlands, it must be impossible for them to comprehend what we have to do to keep things going. I can't think of any of reason why people are this way.

I'm watching this thread closely - we do a lock in at troop JLT each fall and show a movie, letting the guys pick what they want to watch. We've watched some great and funny ones over the years, but it just never crosed my mind to show a movie to benefit this requirement, and put an additional benefit behind showing a good movie.

I like High Noon, 12 Angry Men, and Follow Me Boys, doubt most kids would go out of their way to watch and probably can still follow, even if the first two are in B&W. I don't think I could do Swing Vote. Reviews are a little more harsher than yours, 915, plus it's PG13 and we've very rarely allowed those for troop consumption. Do you all really think Kelly's Heroes or The Great Escape would appeal to boys like it did to us? WW2 had much more of an impact on us than it ever could to them.

Once upon a time, there once was a community that was served by a number of elementary schools. One pack served each school, by gentlemens agreement even through each were chartered through area churches. All was well, each was a strong unit.

Until one day the evil DE posted a new rule that there was to be a one to one relationship of the packs to troops. He thought it was logical and would make him look like a hero as it appeared to work that way anyhow, as each already had a relationship with matching unit numbers and a couple even had the same CO. Except the evil DE was obviously a phys ed major and couldnt do math very well. There was one more troop than pack in the community. Plus, the community was split down the center by two Districts. So the other District didnt pay any attention to him, you have no authority over us was their cry (not that it mattered anyway, the Webelos went where they wanted). So the plot of the story begins when one year the odd Troop out doesnt get any Web crossovers. Fearing their future viability, they go on a recruiting rampage the following year and nearly get all. Suddenly they were burdened with the results of greatly over promising and under delivering a Troop that nearly doubled in size over night. They have lost many of them since, including some older guys that were lost in the shuffle. This infuriated the community that they all were losing numbers, you dummies! they cried. The year after, the odd Troop out realizes to they need to be more careful with what they ask for and back off the guerilla marketing schemes. Things balance out and each Troop gets a respectful number of crossovers to support consistent growth. Each Troop became a little more aggressive in its recruiting methods instead of sitting back and assuming they would all get the crossovers automatically from their respective feeder unit. All the Troops realized all they had to do was step it up a little and by just promoting their programs a little more effectively they recruited Webelos and families that were compatible with their Troop. All this was accomplished without a lot of discourse or gnashing of teeth and all lived happily ever after.

The moral of the story is that there is no perfect system and no rights to particular Webelos. Market your program and the market will let you know how your program is doing.

Too bad that isn't the prevailing attitude on the Boy Scout level.

Thirty years ago, I wore OG-107 cotton sateen fatigues.

Ugh those were awful. So glad when BDUs came out.

Gunny wow, thats too complicated for me to remember, how can we expect a teenager to keep it straight?

>>"National" OA does not provide "lifetime" membership, but our lodge (AKK #185) does provide that option to its members (both youth and adults).

even though they have flat out said our boys will not join your unit.

Interesting, are you in northern Ireland? (dripping with thick sarcasm!) The Pack leaders determine where the Webs from their Pack cross over to? May need to remind those that have stated such that is not their call. Maybe this is an attempt from some other den leaders to go around an edict that has no authority? I say provide them, its good for both sets of boys and those building relationships down the road will benefit all. I would imagine many of these boys go to the same schools? Come on, lets be adults here!

Better watch it - you're opening the door for accusations of 'holding boys back' and 'adding to the requirements'. This is where the literal reading will drive you nuts when trying to meet the intent of the requirements.

Did this a few years back on a Boy Scout campout Parents dropped us off a couple miles away from our camping site for the weekend. Trailer with gear was driven to campsite. Had a great ride, not too hilly, but enough for some good stories to develop. The meeting prior, I got a guy from the local bike club to come in and go over basics of the bike, safety, repairs, etc. I really expected my guys would be bored, but they got a lot from it and had a lot of good interaction with him. Was a very good experience overall and PLC regularly brings up doing it again. Met requirement 2C #1c. Will try this next spring, but this time stretch it a little further to add Camping MB #9b3.

I think what I need more than anything else here is humility.

Yep you better believe it! We like to think we know all the answers, but far from it. Just keep it simple, be patient, and consistent. Thats all most boys need and they end up stepping up to do the right things. You arent going to turn anything around over night, it does take time. Keep plugging and youll get them there. Good luck!

I had more than one boy come up to me and thank me for not being like him.

Ohhhhh, well yeah, thats a whole nother issue. Was stuck on a jambo contingent with a screamer SM; drove us all nuts. At SeaBase had a 18 year old know-it-all divemaster, couldnt have been a Scout. All week long hes the loud mouth. Finally one day as were unloading the boat as hes babbling to us when he turns to one of his fellows, that is an Eagle and says What, they arent even listening to me!? As quick as I could, I turn and simply say, Because they know good leaders dont have to yell. The Eagle and other Scouts that overhear this bust up laughing, but not him. The kid just didnt get it.

My son gave me the inside skinny a couple years back that they all knew how to read me. Had that problem since I was a kid, I cant win at poker to save my life.

(This message has been edited by ursus snorous roarus)

Weve submitted Eagle applications with leadership terms not completed within a six month period and they werent rejected.

I dont see it in my 1999 version of the Brotherhood Ceremony. Is it documented elsewhere? Id very much like to consider it in our ceremonies. Our Brotherhood Ceremony definitely needs a little kick in it.

John - Really? Please elaborate on what you'd ask and how it'd effect your voting.

What is the Brotherhood Hike?

May I recommend, if you arent already, get a program like troopmaster to manage this data. Give each registered scout a periodic advancement report to review (at least twice a year). It will help clear up misunderstandings about POR, dates, or MBs much earlier. This is one of those cases where the adults just figure this young man wont push the issue and expect him to fade away. Suddenly hes sitting in front of you looking for a conference and troop BOR. Then the alarms start sounding and everyone gets excited airing concerns way after they couldve been constructively addressed. Unfortunately Ive been there too, but as SM, and he was a left over from the prior administration.

Agreed with advice already posted, you are approaching this properly. Lay out all his records in front of him and ask to confirm if anything is missing from it. Because as it is, it appears he doesnt qualify for Eagle. That takes it away from a personal attack and backed up by the facts. At least to rational people, it reduces the chances of the you leaders never liked my son and this is what youre doing to him. Try and give him some options to work with. Do all you can to help, but hes got to see what hes up against at this point and if possible, decide if hes up for finishing it.

Wow, great to hear all is ok. My crew just departed from a week of diving on the 13th. They were already in the last weeks of program for the summer, they may just shut it down now? As it was they were on a skeleton crew as most staffers were departing for school.

Sorry Stosh - there was supposed to be a smiley face in there that somehow didn't come through, just a good natured ribbing there, buddy.

But since you responded, I said nothing about not being respectful, please don't presume I encourage that. There certainly are many constructive ways of butt chewing for failing to be prepared. But I have no problem dressing down a kid or adult for not completing a task assigned, whether it is in a youth, volunteer, or work environment. I can't speak to other units, but I have an exceptional bunch of boys. Many are in advanced classes at school and fully understanding that an assignment is to be met. We most certainly do treat each other with respect, but we also know to hold each other accountable to our commitments and how it effects everyone when someone fails to hold up theirs. It is part of a teamwork lesson that is becoming more important in every aspect of life. When someone lets down the team there are ramifications as each has a role in that team. Even my Asbergers boys understand the expectations and rise to meet them. Set the bar high and they reach it. While Im not so much into making others look good and reveling in that, Id rather focus on attaining our objectives and teaching the leaders how to get there that is my job in this program. The adult mandated agenda you referred to is the PLCs meeting plan of what they agreed they would accomplish that evening. If making sure the SPL holds them accountable to that plan makes me too involved then so be it, Ill gladly welcome that criticism. You are very correct, respect is essential. But so is accountability and a good old butt chewing when warranted can do wonders for regaining focus and direction. Sheltering a kid from cause and effect is doing them a great disservice in preparation for life.

One thing I just recalled keep reminding your leaders to get their one adult nominee in each year. We had a very selective adult committee in the past. At one point I had 8 Arrowmen and I was the only adult that could drive. Its a hole lot easier to get drivers for fellowships, ordeals, etc at our camp when they can stay for the weekend instead of driving an hour to drop guys off then turn around and drive home. I know some of you all drive a lot further, even more of a plus in your case.

This is the exact reason why Web leaders start new units. It's just easier than trying to clean up all the "issues" within an existing unit. I had the same dilemma, taking over for a greatly respected SM that had guided the troop for 15 years. My son was approaching as a Web and I was bringing him into the unit. It was my old Troop, my church, and had a lot of baggage of a burned out leader and his lack of effective ASMs. He was literally hanging on for me to arrive. Very intimidating!

You just need to re-teach some of these guys quietly and without much notice to the youngers or adults. Simply by using the resurrected PLC meetings was the most effective way for me to do this. The SPL would guide them through upcoming activities and things the younger guys needed to know. Then the SPL would ask for volunteers to teach the skills, as at that time our PLs were non-existent (teaching what they were to be doing in patrol corners was a whole nother process). That would give the guys a couple weeks or so to prepare and brush up. The SPL & I would pull them aside later to remind them ok, youve got 20 minutes to fill teaching xx rank, requirement #xx. What have you got in mind to do? Use that as a chance to review and give some pointers. Show them relevant sections in Woods Wisdom for ideas. The last thing you want to do is let them wing it unprepared (but letting the kid embarrass himself can be a great way to teach a lesson!). However when that does happen, which it will, is why the PLC meets at the end of each meeting. That gives SPL a chance to review the success of the meeting plan and chew some butt if someone wasnt ready; and remind everyone of what is coming up next week. Be patient, dont embarrass them in front of the younger guys but dont be afraid to pull them aside and talk about all this as they adjust to you and your expectations. They are not going to be perfect; they will misidentify nature, struggle with knots and compasses (Only Stosh has those perfect guys ). Their apple cart is getting upset so dont push them away or give up on them! You still have a chance to make a great impact on these young men as well. They are probably pretty intimidated by this new bunch of hot shots that brought in this new barn burner leader. But once they start seeing some small victories and improvements theyll get on board. It takes time, but you need to be persistent, take every opportunity to constructively reinforce and involve the patrol method and youth leadership. Just my experiences, I hope some of it helps.