croushorn

Need to first ask if the guy has ever had any mental issues in the past

Assuming you already have a good feel for his personality shows patience, communicative, shows patience, delegates, shows patience, follows through, shows patience, open mind, shows patience, lives by the law, shows patience, lives by the oath, shows patience. He will be recognized as SM all through the community, 24/7 wherever he is and wherever he goes.

The bigger issue your committee needs to define is the role for him. What kind of troop does your committee expect he operate? Ie boy lead vs. adult lead; does he have a grasp of the patrol method? is he willing to commit to attending roundtables and additional training that will add to his abilities? Is he willing to educate himself through additional sources such as internet websites/forums, books, the biggest issue is making sure you all are on the same wavelength of how we do things and what is expected of him, and what he expects from the committee. Can he deal with PIA parents - helicopter or snow plow parents and difficult children? Children with varying disabilities - eventually there will come a Scout that has Aspbergers or Autism, they can be very trying for a person that has no understanding of how to deal with them. Is he willing to sacrifice vacation time away from his family for summer camp or high adventure:: is his wife on board? Will his work be an issue with getting to meetings, in time for campout departures, etc... Will he be supported by the committee in ways such as recruiting ASMs, providing back up and coverage for when he cannot make a campout or meeting, is he expected to attend every campout, if not how many is acceptable for him to miss before people start rumbling about it.

Just off the top of my head...

Prepare the poor guy as he has no clue what he is getting into!

Do search results in YouTube differ with registration?

Im afraid to admit I did this, but just went there and entered boy scouts & girl scouts and found easily a few hundred good wholesome videos before they started veering off topic, not into porn, just goofy kid stuff no longer related to Scouting. But I didnt register, which I wonder if that changes the results of a search. If it does, well, at least theres that registration barrier. If it doesnt, then good for them for keeping that crap out (or is it due to people posting more topical wholesome videos?).

edit: typo

(This message has been edited by ursus snorous roarus)

Dean you are right on the head to a point. I understand your frustration, the warnings can seem are a little over the top, but only because of the adults disregard or just dont pay attention. We went to a very large regional camporee this past weekend. Had Troops there with only one leader how can that happen?

This is one of the reasons I prefer BS, you probably do need to be more cautious in CS. If for no other reason, I dont think youve had time to build a relationship, not just with the boy, but his parents yet. A boy of CS age cant relate to an adult like a teenager can. And if weve trained the teens well enough through discussions about abuse, YP, showing the videos, then the older guys are able to recognize what is inappropriate very quickly.

I miss the walks my SM and I used to take in the woods. Walk with me was an opening for a SM conference where it should be held, out in Gods splendor, not in a packed classroom full of the controlled chaos of a troop meeting. We all knew when we heard that invitation what it meant for our self and for each other. Today that phrase would be ridiculed as code words for doing something inappropriate (but I still manage to use it myself every now and then). So yes, some of that has changed; but there is still some leeway. In BS we are in it for the long haul and can build friendships and relationships that show our caring for each other. Guys Ive had for three or more years from Webs thru HS, that bond and trust is there. Getting phone calls and emails from guys that are off in college comes from that relationship. Their parents know and trust me to take their sons to far away places and do things they never would otherwise. But Ive had to earn that trust with each and every family, which takes time and patience. Im a touchy guy, not afraid to put my hand on an arm or arm around the shoulders when I see it warranted. You are so right, there are times some of these guys need that. Some have never gotten a simple pat on the back or a handshake from their father. A simple thank you from an adult looking them in the eye and not down their nose; a treatment of respect from an adult for their hard work can do wonders for a boys growth. Im lucky because I dont have to discipline very much and I believe its because of that relationship. My guys get as defensive over someone not showing respect to me as I do about them. Its amazing how it feeds from itself. Leaders that dont have that relationship are missing one of the best parts of Scouting (and sadly we all see those guys).

So vent a little, I did too. But its not so bad and the rewards only get better the longer youre at it. Youll find your own comfort zone and ways of dealing with the Scouts. Have fun!

I've thought about this before, how many camps, state parks or otherwise, will allow a group of youth to camp without a leader-in-charge? and how do you deal with tour permits? Will council approve one without a LIC & 2nd adult? (one more acronym!)

Belayer - I don't think anyone is questioning the quality of your lodge or any of the wonderful Scouting things Shawnee has accomplished. As you said we all do better in some areas than others. I can point out both good and bad things with mine.

But in this one aspect you have to admit vetoing after elections is not allowed; and now that you realize it, you all should revisit it. I highly doubt this is the first time this has been brought up to your lodge as this has been pointed out by other Scouters ala Eagle92. Picking and choosing which rules to follow isnt that great of a direction to go.

I too was a youth inductee in the late 70s and I dont think it was ever part of the election process as prescribed by national. I hope you all do the right thing.

>>Have to say I wish you'd asked that question rather than assume I didn't know what I was talking about.

Well, you have your work cut out for you.

If you do your best you can always be proud you did what you could. What happens after that is out of your control.

Good luck, son.

Vicki - just a clarification - he needs 10 months from his Ordeal date before he is eligible for his Brotherhood. Spring will be too early.

As you have already experienced, bad decisions have real consequences. Not receiving your Eagle will most probably be one more of them. Only you can turn this into a positive outcome. For your own sake, I hope you do.

We put a LOT of hours into our camp. It seems we are forever there for This Good Turn or That Good Turn. The OA does numerous events there and all include some kind of good turn. I think I know the intricacies of that camps awful plumbing better than I do my own house. Now I dont mind, I love the place and my son calls it his second home. But when were trying to patch things along year after year it gets very frustrating and tiring. The camp is viewed as a major part of the Councils program and on the books DOES cover its expenses; but by golly do we volunteer for everything. Having a pro come in every now and then to maintain some of these systems would certainly be warranted and go so much easier on us having to keep patching things along continually. Our summer camp staff is not responsible or mature enough to keep things working and seemingly were rehabbing a fraternity house every fall. It does get old

I think you need to be looking for better direction than can be provided on an internet forum. If this posting is even real, receiving Eagle is the least of the issues in your life right now. Real life brings real decisions and thereby real ramifications. My presumption is that you wouldn't have found yourself in this predicament, innocent or not, if you had used better judgment that comes along with exemplifying Scout spirit and living by the Law & Oath. Lets get some priorities here - if you are truly innocent, keep pushing to receive it but only after you receive your redemption. If you are guilty then you need to do some serious reflection on where your life has gone wrong and what you can do to improve it; forget about Eagle as youve blown it and dont deserve it. This is all assuming any advice we give here will have any impact as Id guess youve ignored well meaning advice offered before.

Wearing the sash on the left shoulder will cover over the Scout's rank. All the images in any publications show it over the right.

Adding a loop would be great, watching a Scout fight to keep it up during COHs can be hilarious.

At least the OA sash is narrow enough to fit under the epaulette. I know we didnt change the sash width in 79 with the DLR uni, it just worked out that way. I always thought they just planned it that way (I know, I know).

Nothing in my dated 2004 version insignia guide.

2 per row is no biggie, but that means he'll need 11 rows, can get kind of low on the sash. 3 per row means he only needs 7 rows. Not a big deal, either way.

I'm not going to ask our families to go buy them if they don't need them. I'll let them transition as they wish.

I would imagine our LEC will vote to at least have one for NOAC, so that will push a few more of us along in the spring.

We have a national shop and they pulled our red loops & red trained patch at least two weeks ago.

I feel for you Lisa, those are the tough ones.

I ran into one of my former Scouts the other day, he must be in his early 20s by now. He was in a real beater car at our Y waiting on someone to come out. I pulled in the space right next to him. The windows were down and he looked rough. Long unkempt hair, scraggly beard, tatoos, smoking. He acted like he didn't see me until I said hello to him, by name. He had a look on his face that I was a person he was terrified to see. The spark in the eye from his young teen years was gone. Short and sad conversation.

Those ones hurt.

(This message has been edited by Ursus Snorous Roarus)

Another camp bites the dust.

http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080824/NEWS01/808240316

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Camp Avery Hand lowers flag for last time

By Lou Whitmire News Journal August 24, 2008 MANSFIELD, Ohio --

The U.S. flag was lowered for the last time at Camp Avery Hand as members of the Heart of Ohio Boy Scout Council officially closed the 200-acre camp.

The scenic camp on Orewiler Road is for sale; the asking price is $1.4 million.

The flag was lowered by five Scouts at 1 p.m., in front of the dining hall across from the Ohio Bird Sanctuary. A small crowd of Scouting volunteers and leaders in full uniform attended. Matt Smith, former Boy Scout Council president, played the bugle during the closing ceremony.

Smith camped at Avery Hand as a Boy Scout.

Boy Scout Council Executive Board President Brian White said an open house let people visit the camp one last time and reminisce with old friends.

"While this is certainly a day with sadness, it's also a day of remembrance," White said. "It's also a day of celebration of all the generations of Scouts who had the opportunity to enjoy this facility."

Until Saturday, the council operated two camps, Avery Hand and the Firelands Scout Reservation.

"This facility can't support Camp Avery Hand anymore, so we're moving it to our Firelands Scout Reservation near Wakeman," White said.

"What we're going to do is rename two camps at the reservation, Camp Avery Hand and Camp Wyandotte. We're transferring this camp up there so the tradition and heritage of Camp Avery Hand continues in its new home for future generations of Scouts."

The original Camp Avery Hand off Fleming Falls Road was purchased in 1927. Charles Ackerman donated the money in the name of his grandson.

In 1940, the Boy Scouts sold the camp and purchased 75 acres on Orewiler Road, then transferred the camp there.

White said 50 acres of the Orewiler Road camp will be sold to the bird sanctuary, which is raising money for the land.

The sale and closing of the camp has been controversial. Scout volunteers raised $1.2 million of the $4.2 million needed to convince the Heart of Ohio board to reconsider selling Avery Hand.

But Heart of Ohio Scout Executive Barry Norris said that money was needed for an endowment for council operations, and couldn't be earmarked for Avery Hand.

Norris earlier said, "This was always about the financial stability of the council, as opposed to preserving property. We never could afford two camps. We did not have enough utilization. We did not have enough revenue."

Gary L. Gibson, of Caledonia, attended the ceremony with one of his three sons. Cory, 16, a junior at River Valley High School, is working toward his Eagle Scout badge.

"My kids loved it here. It was great for the southern part of the Council," he said. "We came today because of the memories, the camping experiences."

Brian Kleshinski, a Scouting supporter, wrote in an email to the News Journal he was on staff at Camp Avery Hand as a teen, and he was an Eagle Scout.

"Scouting is and always was a grass-roots organization. If you walk on the grass too much, it will die. You must find the courage to do what's right and stop selling the Scout camps," he wrote.

Kleshinski shared some of the many messages he received from former Scouts.

Steve Oster, a former Eagle Scout, said he spent many summers at Avery Hand. "Both of my parents were very involved in Scouting. Mom was a den mother and a treasurer for a pack in Ontario for probably 25 years and my father was a Scoutmaster," Oster wrote. "All of their sons ... were proud Eagle Scouts.

"I often wonder if the people running the council ever thought this through or just saw it as a business deal. Regardless, that camp will permanently have a place in my heart and life," Oster wrote.

I took a crew to SCUBA Adventure in 2008. PM me with any questions, I would be glad to help as I understood the frustrations with getting answers!

Doc I think you are over reacting and reading too much in a forum here. Do as has been recommended by numerous folks and I think it will put your mind at ease. Please reserve comment on some of these things until you investigate them properly.

Just a quick hit, my perspective was we saw a statesman last night, compared to a politician last week. This will be an interesting 60 days.

I went down this same road with my eldest daughter. I was really surprised at the differences and wondered if it was my bias to BSA. They told me we could run a GS troop like a patrol and that patrol is independent from others. That made no sense to me, as there is no way to gather camping gear or otherwise that will be utilized by younger Scouts. Each Troop (patrol) does it all themselves, which greatly limits resources, the number of parents to pitch in, and inhibits annual program consistency. They also told me we could structure the troop like a BS unit, with multiple ages involved. Of course that makes the most sense to me, as doing it the prior way really doesnt lend itself to leadership roles or mentoring. Summer camp is a whole different issue, I just dont get it!

My wife was the Troop leader and I wanted to take them camping. From what I recall I couldnt stay in the campsite. How far away do I need to be? They seemed to be dealing with me in a manner that I really felt I wasnt welcomed, which if I pulled that approach on a female in BS, wow.

I have a younger daughter coming up and I brought up Daisys just the other day. My wife roller her eyes, so maybe Ill follow through with it this time.

One thing Ive seen done is that you get a silkscreen logo for the event you are doing. We have a basic troop t-shirt with our little logo on the upper right breast. When we go do some fun things, I can get a silkscreen made up for about $50. We just email whatever image we want to a local t-shop and he makes the frame. After were done we drop it back off at his shop so he can do it again for us later. We have a squeegee and buy whatever color paint the guys want. They silkscreen on the image themselves where ever on the shirt they want its their shirt. Its really fun and adds to the event experience (canoeing trip, Gettysburg, hiking a trail...). Ive got some guys that are quite good, do multiple colors, and one even got a part time job at the shop during summers.

>> It's a Scout's Eagle, not yours.

Understood Doc; When I was selected for the Vigil honor I was an adult. I hadn't been through a ceremony as a candidate in 20 years. Daggone right I was nervous and not really happy about it.

If you have concerns, talk to your lodge advisor or the lodge staff advisor and let one of them know you want to watch the program. Nobody will get excited about it, but if they should, tough. I think your concerns will be relieved by what you see; it is a great ceremony.

Belayer Actually, the guys may have a pretty good idea who is eligible, but arent going to be exactly sure because of the 15 nights, especially if hes a part time Scout.

But Id rather sit with a kid before an election and say, sorry Son, I dont think youve earned the right to be on the OA ballot, and heres why. Points for improvement are given, constructively. Plus, ideally this wont be the first time this kid has heard this from me, so it shouldnt be a shocker. Id rather have that talk any day of the week than after he was actually voted in and say sorry kid, you were voted in and I vetoed it because of this and this. Is that constructive? No, I think thats a little after the fact and we can get into anger and emotion real fast there. I dont want that. The other option of not telling the kid at all, what does that accomplish? I see a wasted opportunity to grow by doing that.

Not to derail the topic, but I wont pull a kid off the eligibility list unless I wouldnt sign off on his rank advancement for SS. I need to be absolutely sure about it. But when Im on the fence, I let it go through and he will be on the ballot. Why? Because in nearly 10 years of doing this the voters (fellow Scouts) 90% of the time vote the right guys in and get it right. Those that they were wrong about usually fall out of the lodge soon enough. They know who deserves it, and we talk about that enough through the year and certainly right before they vote about what should qualify someone to be in the OA. So I usually don't get too tore up about who deserved it in the first place. If there are issues, it will come up long before that point, usually they disqualify themselves with lack of camping requirements. And there are times when what I think is going on isnt. Ive had reliable older guys tell me different things than I thought were going on. The boys know. (jeeze, Im starting to sound more and more like Stosh!)

After tap outs when the kid is moping around because he wasnt selected I now have another chance to talk with him. He now can be challenged to reflect upon his past behavior to look for ways to improve over the upcoming year. The more I stay out of it, the better it is for him and Im not perceived by the boy or M&D as blocking his way.