croushorn

Eagledad gives you fantastic advice and direction. I completely concur.

If you give him the opportunity to re- resubmit a proposal under whatever reasonable conditions you define, I cant believe there would be any reason for Dad to drag out this example of extremely poor judgment. And thats exactly how I would put it, provided with examples of what you could have done suggested by some folks right here on this forum. Ask him what does he think would happen if he sent that to one of his teachers? Make sure you keep your CC and maybe your UC in the loop on this. Require him to witness the SM conference when you counsel the Scout on this.

Personal note I wouldnt deal any further with this family on a one-on-one basis. Obviously you all have different perspectives on what is acceptable and what isnt; dont build Dad's case for a complaint to your committee or council. Add this to the list of reasons Scouts and adults should not communicate directly through email. Also, I dont tolerate screaming: from my boys, from my adults, from myself. If an adult starts that crap I will walk away or hang up the phone. And if they stop to breathe, I will simply say that I will be glad to talk further on the topic when they have regained their composure.

With my experiences, some folks will thank you for holding the standard high, others will curse you for being unfair. Its not easy being the one that has to make that call, but it is what we signed on for. Ive turned some boys around, but Ive also lost some. The ones that turn around make it all worthwhile. The ones that dont, certainly hurt, but as long as you did everything you can then the regret shouldnt be yours. None of us are perfect, all we can do is look in the mirror and try to do better each time. I can appreciate your dilemma, good luck with the rest of the story.

They need to do the adult application. There are numerous differences, including the SS# for the background check.

I would agree, but we all know how much BL is constantly trying to keep their connection to youth today and this is one of the things they may have to sacrifice to get/stay there. Where should they draw the line? Would having a new American icon like Michael Phelps do that? As much as he should, Id doubt hed have the connection a Brady type does. It's hard enough to get these guys to read the magazine.

Our Council just subbed out to national, what an incredible improvement: current MB books, more things than we ever had before, better hours... just wonderful! We were very sceptical at first, but now very happy they made the move.

Thank you! I fully expected someone would pick up on that line, apparently the from afar wasnt clear enough. Our role is to guide, not do it for him, right?

One more time, I am talking about the application, not prior to.

Are you saying providing the requirements for each rank is not necessary? Or for his merit badges? Why not just let him figure those out too? Lets prepare him for his Eagle now by starting with guessing his way through his Tenderfoot. Why do we need to give him a handbook? A dedicated Scout can figure it out on his own, otherwise he must not want it that badly... A great life lesson cant start too soon you know!

Zero tolerance. Good thing they didn't have that back in the day as some of us wouldn't be around to read this forum.

>> you need to be careful to keep expectations realistic and within BSA parameters.

Go with #C.

As usual, you all need to chill a little. Lecture him a little and redirect him to do it properly. "And that is why Son, you will not dicuss an Eagle project by email with any adult. PICK UP THE PHONE OR ASK ME AT A MEETING."

GW: I really hope that was sarcasm...

Did it just last night. Still works as good as when we were kids.

You ceratinly should be proud! It's a great feeling watching these boys grow and accomplish. Enjoy your time with him, it flies by.

As youve seen fully well on this forum there are many ways of skinning a cat. Heres my simple advice:

People, who think they know it all, as they say, dont know what they dont know. Thats an arrogance issue that you ran smack into. You can offer some constructive criticism to the committee or other adult leaders about these issues, supporting it by citing sources. If you see someone on a rant about why something didnt work and can show them why it didnt through training or program documents, it tends to get their attention. Youre no longer a new guy. Over a years worth of experience in your Troops leadership is enough to warrant consideration of your opinions by fellow leaders. You may even find some welcome it as they havent felt comfortable in speaking up, having gotten the same lecture themselves.

The most useful tool Ive found in transitioning away from adult lead to boy lead is to make this your mantra: An adult should never do what a boy can. When I start to get into something or see another adult doing the same, I ask this of myself or out loud to them is this something one of the guys should be doing? You can never ask it enough.

Good luck!

Yeah, not a problem at all. I hope my nephew's future lodge allows his cousins and I to be around to watch his!

Thats one of my numerous concerns: he represents the Troop to his Den. Seen where other Troops DC either have no impact or an outright negative influence and the Troop doesnt get any of the crossovers or they leave Scouts. I will need to be very careful in who I let take on this role.

We will be having elections and POR assignments in a couple weeks and starting this eve I really want to push this position to see who answers the call when the new SPL offers the PORs. What I had in mind is that would be a logical step towards moving into the Troop Guide POR when this group of Webs crosses over in Feb. His 6 month turn as DC will be over and now he gets to guide them in the Troop. But only the right kind of kid would have the patience for a full year of that.

I will take the on-line DC training so I can familiarize myself with it first. I like the idea of having a structure for him to follow each den meeting. Gets all on the same page as to what is expected another concern. It looks like I will monitor the role myself this first time, maybe next I can delegate it to an ASM. Thanks for all of your insight, Ill post reports on how it progresses.

Thats the Achilles of the Fair Tax: converting to it. Youll have the baby boomers and retirees getting the short end for a couple years until it starts evening out, which will be a significant adjustment to our society. People stuck in the middle will lose huge amounts of money without an effective transition plan. A major part of our economy is unfortunately built around dealing with the current tax system, every CPA and H&R Block will be suddenly left out in the cold. But to ignore it like the current and past presidents have is only going to exacerbate the problem, just like theyve done on energy but many times worse. The inevitable class and age war is certainly coming, including an immigrant issue that we will havent even seen the impact from yet. I wish I were more optimistic than I am. I truly hope either Obama or McCain is open to the real facts that every economist is screaming about and changes our direction, fast. Their predecessors certainly havent been up for the task. With a one party government, Im not sure to be happy or scared.

For the project, yes, I'm not as concerned. You are correct, the Scout needs to work through it lumps and all. Our District advisors pretty much just tell them after he is ready to start, "call me if anything comes up, otherwise let me know when you're done." The only time I or any leaders get involved is when I see something really headed in the wrong direction. But typically it's just the routine 'how's it going' kind of thing. We need to watch that Dad isn't doing too much, while I can be suspicious it's hard to tell what is going on at home!

My hang up is with the application paperwork. That's where we really want to walk him through it under close supervision. Had an 11th hour kid not realize he needed to provide stamped envelopes with the CC address on it. He just assumed his references would know what to do. He had to do some real hustling to get them out in time to be mailed in to turn into District. He wasn't paying attention when we told him about it. Almost blew it....

But some have done it all at home and didn't need anything more than a proofing. The procedure isn't written out and the Scout and his family have no idea what all is involved unless the parents have been through it with a prior Scout. So that's why we help guide them through it.

I'm with Gern & Bevah, I would vote Libertarian if it weren't for their stand on legalizing drugs. In fact, I think that is one issue that keeps people from really taking them seriously. I'm a great believer in the Fair Tax. Bush has failed miserably in a few aspects (ie immigration, budget/expenses, finishing the war); not happy with the loss of manufacturing in America but not so sure either can stop the trends. But other than those, can't complain.... we've been safe! Blame energy problems on both parties. I can't go 'D' because I just can't accept their platform, or a guy that's not even been a full term Senator with a very questionable familial history. His VP nominee is more qualified than he is...

Regardless, this next Prez is going to face some huge issues: the budget and shifting of money from the retiring boomers, medicare, social security, energy, results of immigration... I'm afraid these next four to eight years are going to be very ugly for either guy with some very hard decisions to make. I greatly fear what taxes will be like in another four years.

How is he going to know what? That he's been given bad advice? If that's what you mean, he won't until the proverbial sheep hits the fan. And we've already hashed all the wonderful attributes of that aspect. Does that follow LOGIC?

Troop and Pack calendars fill up quickly. There is a thing such as too many activities on a calendar, there may be a big event the weekend before or after yours; that may be a big football, soccer, baseball weekend. Certain times of the year there's just too much going on to fit in any more. Too full of a calendar will burn out parents pretty fast - they still need time to meet other non-Scouting commitments. Try and find out these things when you visit the unit committees to get a commitment to make it an official event. If they decline, then at least ask them to allow you to promote the event through their pack/troop meetings. Is there an ability to move your event if that is the case?

>>Why is it necessary for the SM or anyone else to pick someone for him?

Once an official position is created,

I didnt know this was an official position? We do this by proxy, asking a past Eagle Dad to fill this role with a young man that is where his son was not so long ago. He fully understands that its not his paperwork to do, but merely to proof, give directions, and guidance through the undocumented process seemingly everyone in the district but the Scout knows he is to follow. Any out of line step can cause great ruckus and it's usually followed by blame directed right back to the unit. It gives the past Eagle Dad a good way of paying back without too much effort, it gives the youth another opportunity to have and get to know another influential adult in his life. The same scope and relationship that a project advisor can provide.

If the system is too difficult for an Eagle candidate to complete on his own, then the system needs to change. But not by adding more adults into the mix.

Absolutely agreed the system needs changed, 'how' is the major question. With all the legalese that flies around about if and or how in the heck can we expect a teenager to work through that on his own without a lot of frustration and wasted time by a lot of people? (re: recent thread concerning answering the 6 months POR on the app). This isnt only the candidates time that is involved here. By negating this assistance, we are inviting a parent to do it for him, or we can sit back to watch the train wreck and deal with the aftermath. No thanks.

As a Scout JLT and SPL training in 1979 or 80.

Whatever they called the Scoutmaster training in 1990 after I finished college... I think it was two or three classes.

Then took a break from Scouting to serve in Gulf War, start a family and get career going. Since returning in 2000 have taken the full composition of SM leader training offered, among many others.

There are really two topics here. One is his project and the other is his Eagle application paperwork. Our District provides a Project Advisor to help the candidate through his project. Our Adv. Chair or I (SM) assign that person after project approval. At that point, we also assign an adult from the committee as an advisor to assist with the Eagle application side of this (usually a past Eagle Dad thats been through the rigors of the process before). Now, neither this adult nor anyone else is going to chase this kid down, but will probe with inquiries every now and then to see how things are going (as will many of our leaders and parents). Its amazing how much can come from this light hearted jabbing (not nagging) and gets the kid going again he sees others do care about his status. I keep telling them the old adage your procrastination doesnt make it my emergency.

Its so easy to pontificate that they need to ask for help first. Unfortunately when they DO ask for help, many times its been at the 11th hour and I or the CC must drop everything else to guide him through his questions, and deal with all the spin-off phone calls and emails that now have to involve other people, looking for resolutions to issues that didn't need to happen to begin with. Some us of do have non-scouting commitments in our lives as well! Are you ready to face the kid and tell him he isnt going to get his Eagle because of a misunderstanding over what he thought he was to do and was supposed to do otherwise? Or because one of us was out of town or had commitments and couldnt do something for him on short notice? No thanks, thats not a life lesson I want any part of. Sometimes on these there's no second chances for them to learn from their mistakes. One time of having an application be rejected once or twice for date inconsistencies or other human errors can really wear on a youth and his family about having long term attitudes about BSA (not to mention unnecessarily taking the valuable time we leaders may not have). Apparently some of you forget all of the other things we as SM need to make sure were doing; Talk about a great way to burn out your CC or SM...

I compare it to taxes if you want to take a chance on your own, feel free to. But if we want to increase our chances that it will go through the first time, get with this adult and hell proof it. It gives another opportunity for youth-adult relationship, it saves a lot of anxiety on a kid and family in scenarios such as getting ready to head off to college or holiday COHs. It just makes everything go much easier and there are no reasons we should permit it to unnecessarily go the wrong way. Man, I get blasted on this forum for allegedly putting up barriers to kids on advancement. Im very surprised to read some of the attitudes concerning the Eagle process from those very same people.

I was a 1980 Eagle, and refuse to accept that my application and project received nearly the same scrutiny from our District/Council/National that these do today. My and numerous others of my fellows project proposals most probably wouldve been rejected today. The application is so much complicated as well. Anyone that doesnt see that is really looking through some serious rose coloreds.

(This message has been edited by ursus snorous roarus)

Great Monday morning DYB, after a wonderful weekend of Scouting fellowship at our fall ordeal I am very happy to see your response. While I can see that my post may have come across a little snobby, you are right, that wasnt the intention. The point was that we leaders can be a stubborn bunch, and part of that rotates around our roles in teaching and guiding young men in the daily applications of the Oath and Laws. It is also about the fact that sometimes we forget that were setting an example at all times for people all around us in our daily lives, our Scouts, those from other units, and our fellow Scouters. I too have regrets that I didnt have better regard for the advice I was given about getting more involved in OA and working on camp staff. But so be it, live is full of regrets that you cant keep beating yourself up over.

If my wearing one or more knots assists in setting a better example than I can without, then thats easily done. If wearing them assists in showing over and over to Scouts and adults, the differences between the knots, then you bet I will. Using the knots to show myself to be any better than any other adult leader that lacks those awards, quite frankly, isnt a real concern but certainly isnt a motive (some units use it in recruiting efforts). If wearing knots can reinforce to Scouts and parents that the Eagle certainly does mean something more than another line on a resume, that it becomes a part of your person, then goal accomplished. I like to think I am one of millions that are a living, breathing example of such. If those knots encourage one Scout to ask me to explain them, then its an opportunity that wouldnt be had otherwise. Simply put, its about showing the example to the boys, not us showing each other up.

Ohhhh GW hit a nerve there? Hee

Ok heres a couple off the top of my head: How about arguing against adding a camporee to the district calendar because weve never done that before. Or like refusing to offer more than two Eagle BORs per year, thereby making those two Saturdays marathons for the Scoutmasters. Or like starting arguments that Webelos should only cross over into their parent Troop. Or like refusing to accept we need more merit badge counselors. Or like falling asleep in meetings and when awaking realizing they missed a topic and want to rehash the whole agenda so they can rant about back in my day. Or complain about things without making a constructive point or without providing alternatives. Our poor DC always having to reign them in, if it werent so sad itd be comical.

I hope those dont fit into your stodginess.

Wouldn't it be more prudent and more tactfull if the nominator did not reveal the nomination to the potential recipient until AFTER the recognition was approved?

Yes, very tacky. Nothing good comes from disclosing that. Just like the year our Vigil chair decided to let the list of nominees get released. Bad news.

I've never understood why adults get so hung up on collecting a chestful of knots.

Fgoodwin Im with you here, always been proud of just wearing the only knot that mattered my Eagle. At least, that was until our DC cornered me one night and had a little chat with me. When I tried to blow him off he rebutted pretty aggressively about how it IS about the Scouts when a leader puts in for the Training & Key knots. He tells me it effects the records and statistics that the District uses to show that leaders are qualified and trained, which strengthens their presentation when they approach groups like United Way for donations. It also improves the Council reporting figures for general PR reasons. Plus it sets the example for other adults in direct or non-direct contact positions that continuing education is always needed to keep the program going. I thought the trained emblem on my sleeve would be adequate for that, but having some knots to show reinforces it. So reluctantly I added a few more knots on my shirt, but still think theres still only one that really matters.