croushorn

Thats exactly right twocub: as SM, it is our responsibility to make sure the names that get on that list are eligible.

Heres how I handle it: Troopmaster! You can run a report that shows eligibility for OA and even date for the day of the scheduled election. Our chapter chief schedules us in the Dec/Jan timeframe for a spring election. So I know well in advance what day election is coming. I can forward the date in Troopmaster to show me who will be eligible as of that date. That is my opportunity to review who isnt eligible and why. Did they fall under their 15 nights by the election date? Do we have a couple campouts coming up that can help him get back over 15? How close are they to 1st Class and is there anything we can do to get them there? Hate to see a kid short of a BOR on election day because he didnt know he needed to ask to schedule one, or our BOR Chair didnt set it up before the election date not realizing the urgency Or if all those conditions are in place but I have a problem with SS, then I have another chance to have a talk with him about that and he still has a few months to try and straighten himself around.

But none of this is easily or quickly handled. It does take conscious effort though. The OA is near and dear to me, so it gets a lot of focus in my unit. Other units where that isnt the case, and in ours before I came back, that wont happen. As GaHill and others say, heck, Im trying to strengthen our basics here, the OA is not even close to the top of the list. Its easy to push it aside when more basic issues are staring you in the face.

Well, in our council, the Scoutmaster is a MB counselor for Camping MB, so in effect he would be!

>>Your statement seems to assume they were just willy-nilly making up rules with no reason. I seriously doubt that, don't you? Isn't it much more likely that a particular problem came up that this rule was intended to address?>Do you think the SM at least has some right to know what's going on with the OA outings for the sake of youth protection?

Wimachtendienk Wingolauchsik Witahemui

OOps! is that a secret??

Scouter760:

>>However, just because there is no national rule saying you can do something doesn't mean you can't do it.

We had a couple stragglers, a couple riding BMX bikes that were a little undersized. But all made it. 15 miles isnt really that far, at least on bike. Unless youre heading up Pikes Peak, most gentle ups and downs arent that big of a deal. One fella was at the end walking up this killer hill that ended the ride. Another adult & I were bringing up the rear (as I always keep the boys in front of me in whatever we do), followed by the SAG truck. He was huffing hard; and I waved to the sag to go on ahead as I knew the camp was just up the hill. But the Scout didnt and his eyes filled with terror wheres she going??. So we both joined him in walking and talked him along. We got to the campsite just a while later than everyone else and we all lived to tell about it. I didnt think to check and see if there were Scouts that didnt have bikes. If they didnt they apparently just didnt take part and it wasnt brought to my attention. Would be a good thing to survey though.

I liked the Saturday morning time was best as it is probably the safest time of the day and day of week to be riding. You do need to strongly review the safety rules and stress a no-screwing around policy or Momma gets a call to come get you. My guys did great and we had no problems.

Here we go again with the above and beyond crap.

That is not the point, the point is by having the Scout bringing some of these records provide another avenue to discuss with the Eagle candidate his journey. If that is construed as a barrier - will it change anything? no, it most probably wont. Then why the artificial barrier? If were so fearful of having a stinking discussion with the kid because we dont want to make him sweat a little and be able to discuss a little about his journey to Eagle then why bother? His package will be reviewed by the BOR long before he arrives and can see at that time whether or not everything is in order. Whats the point in having him even show up?

Wow, we get so hung on up the rule we forget about the experience for the Scout. Dont miss the bigger picture here when a candidate for a job or contract has to submit himself to being grilled by an old bunch of stodgy guys that are going to make a decision that may be life altering Ask any Eagle if he remembers his BOR. I can still tell you who sat on mine and what questions I was asked, and that was 29 years ago. Why is that? Because I was terrified, but I survived and grew a little from that experience. Are we harassing the kid by telling him to come to his BOR prepared with his scouting resume to discuss? Man, what an awful experience which is just cruel and unusual to put little Johnny through

We did this a few years back and it really worked well. In fact, we need to do it again!

Two weeks prior, I had a local bike club come in and go over bike safety and repairs. We had some Scouts bring in their bikes to check over. All of us had to get helmets and we reviewed the first aid, safety requirements, and rules of the ride. Adults each had cell phones and hand held radios for communication.

We reserved a campsite at a scout friendly camp in a rural area south of where we live. I found a small trucking company that allowed us to park our vehicles at on Saturday morning. This is a farming area and isnt very busy. The 15 mile route I found was along paved roads, but not main roads that would be less travelled and had for the most part a decent burm to ride along. I drove the route at least three times prior to check and recheck it. It was a fairly flat route, but with a couple good hills including a final up hill that lead us into camp (that made for good stories afterwards at the campfire!).

We left our church early on a Saturday morning and had our trailer with Troop & personal gear delivered directly to our campsite. We parked our vehicles at the trucking company and had adults assigned to be interspersed and at lead and rear of group. I had a Mom drive my truck as a SAG vehicle for emergencies (luckily had none). Once we got to the campsite we had a driver shuttle us back to get our parked vehicles at the trucking company.

It worked out great, much smoother than I expected and we helped the boys earn one of the pesky requirements for Camping MB. It took about three hours if I recall, arriving late morning. Luckily it was a beautiful fall weekend and weather was perfect, not too hot and no rain.

These were the requirements I listed on the permission slip we were providing opportunities for the Scouts to earn: T: 5; 2nd Cl: 1a, 1b; 1st Cl: 1; Camping MB: 2, 3, 9b3; Cycling MB: 2, 6a, 6b, 6c, 6d, 6e, 6f, part of 8. But how we handle these things is the Scout needs to take initiative to get the requirements signed off or documented that they did in the case of the merit badges. Still, none of them have earned the Cycling MB.

Yeah, .... what he said. Leave it to a hick from Georgia to say it best.

I love it buddy!

I love it that Libs are frantically comparing Palin to Obama. Wow, comparing the Vp candidate to the Presidential candidate. How worried are you? Shes one sharp lady.

He may not have the blue cards, but he should know his advancement history. That's not too much to ask of anyone up for this award.

then that is your choice.

Scouter760 your lodges bylaws are in conflict with OA national rules and that is not allowed. I regret that any of your Councils Scouts have been prevented from joining the order by this flawed bylaw. Shame on your Program Director, he should know better.

BC I wanted to tell my Dad numerous times I was ready to quit Scouts. But I didnt have the nerve, considering he was an Eagle himself. I left him bragging rights that he got one more Palm than I did.

It sounds awful heroic to say the kid has to want it. Well you know what? If we didnt have those kinds of people nudging us along, many of us past Eagle wouldnt be able to say we are. These boys need it just like we did. Or they wont either understand the importance of it in the first place. Join us in being that BC, and we will be that much better here in America.

Good for you, BC, and welcome to the Club!!

Fantastic Michael! Your words carry a hundred times more weight than any of us old blabber guys does!

Do they ask for proof of having the cards before they will schedule it? If he has them, show them. But I'd still inform them that isn't a documented national policy and request they still schedule it.

If he doesn't have them, go ahead and schedule it anyways. If it comes up during the BOR, then would be the time to inform them that it is not national policy and explain why you don't have them.

It just may be bluster to require them. They may just want another opportunity to review and discuss the Scout's advancement history.

I wouldn't make it an issue unless they do.

>>It isn't a unit function. Technically, it is a National Court of Honor

And Im with Twocubdad here. Your experiences and views in these areas very closely reflect mine: I hate movie night!

Brotherhood: I think you have named many of the solutions yourself these are simple issues to resolve. Not so sure you have any real obstacles in front of you that some open minds cant work through. One that pops into my head you said your QM does the shopping why? You can stop that this week. I would suggest you all set up a simple training at your next PLC that surely any of your adult leaders can provide: how a patrol operates on a campout and go over the menu selection, the grubmaster duties, patrol quartermaster duties, duty rosters, etc One of my type-A ASMs created templates the PL and his Scribe are responsible for filling out the week prior to campouts; and the ASPL/SPL must approve them. These arent difficult concepts. Based upon your other posts, I can see that youre an experienced guy and been through much of this stuff, dont be afraid to offer help to your SM in areas where you see he is lacking. He just may not see that it is necessary. I love getting feedback from someone that sees something like this that I just may not recognize. Relatively, that is an easy one to work on!

Not that it may be your case, but it always amazes me that parents and others sometimes give us (SM) waaay to much credit (or the other extreme no credit at all!). I cant be everything in the scouting program, no way. I have a life. As was said, your troops focus is usually where your leaders specialties lie. We used to be a real strong canoeing troop as our SM was into it big time. So we were kick butt canoers, but not all that great at the patrol method and youth leadership. His JLT training was non-existent. Under my tenure, I see more of a big picture and focus on leadership development as I really believe those that have such skills will greatly benefit in this game called life. And while I really love canoeing, it wont necessarily help me function better in my professional or home life. Admittedly I am not the best at lashings or orienteering, that is ok I know where to get resources such as other adult leaders or specialty clubs to help in those areas. I dont want or need to be a master of all.

So putting aside the philosophical and personality differences in the responses posted, I think youve gotten some pretty decent direction from some guys that have actually been down this road. Your SM needs to find his own way and grow with his leadership, but theres no point in reinventing the wheel just so you can say you did so. At least pointing them in the right direction is sometimes necessary to keep them from giving up and also contributes to their growing relationship with adults. Have fun and get involved!

Emb: Let me try it this way:

1.) You are voted in and called out by your home (well call) Council A and Lodge A.

2.) Dad gets transferred before you can go to Lodge As Ordeal and now you are residing within the boundaries of (well call) Council B.

3.) Dad submits paperwork transferring you to the new Council B. Council B and Lodge B are now your new home council & lodge.

4.) Get a letter from Lodge As Membership Chair documenting that you were voted in and tapped out by Lodge A. Present this letter to the Membership Chair of Lodge B and you should have no problem attending Ordeal with your new home lodge. There is no out of council event occurring here.

We do this regularly with Scouts transferring in and out of our Council, it is not a big deal. That said, I havent seen an issue with Jewish Scouts either, that would be an interesting experience for us here in WASP country (as I assume it could also be for faiths with other specific needs). I really doubt anyone would pose any objections to reasonable accommodations such as that.

Something interesting I learned from reading that document is that we arent following the rule of having visiting out-of-council troops provide a letter from their Chief listing candidates to be called out. In our tap out, we have the leaders call out their own Scouts; regardless of their lodge affiliation. So we could have leaders doing what they want to anyhow. When there are issues they are caught afterward when we are rectifying the voting results with the tapped candidates names. At that point we confront the SM to explain. Yes, it is after the fact, but in the very rare instance there is a problem, typically its a mix up on the election result. Rarely is it an issue with someone screwing up and calling a Scout that shouldnt have been.

>>Also, in our Council, all sites used for Cub camping have to be on the "Council approved" list.

GKlose: Ive watched this process over the years and it is an interesting one: how much people empower their sons and hope it comes out Ok. Close friends of mine get their heart ripped out when their son turns on them announcing they are quitting Scouts or arent going to cross over. I hate to watch it, but these parents abdicated that choice to their son. My feeling, as terrible as this may sound is that we need to be the adult here. If I give my son the choice at 10 or 11 years old to make important decisions that will affect him for the rest of his life, then I better be ready for the possibility of him choosing the option I didnt prefer.

I hear this often from Webelo parents well, he has to decide for himself... Bull. Reasonable adults that have high expectations of grades and success in other areas, seem to accept less than that in others. So that is their way out: that it isnt that important whether or not Johnny continues in Scouting, or what troop he selects. If we give little Johnny the choice of not going to Sunday school versus sleeping in, what do we think hell pick 99 times out of 100? There are some basic decisions that back up the values of our family, and each has to decide which values are important enough that we stick to. Some things arent negotiable, education in school and faith, and in my house, Scouting too. I picked the Troop for my son. After that I gave him much leeway, but it wasnt an option over where or if he was crossing over. Theres no way he could comprehend the organizational and philosophical approaches of the troop he was headed to that I did. Im of the belief that if we raise our children with certain expectations that are not negotiable they will rise to meet them because they know no other way. If we give them an out of accepting less, then they will take the easier route. Almost every time.

My advice: I dont expect that a kid of a preteen age can reasonably understand the full picture of the choices we sometimes ask of them. Dont make this a major stress decision in his life. Because if pushed he will make the safe choice, especially when he doesnt know what to expect, and that is to not continue on. Make the best choice you can for him and let him take it from there.

I'm anxious to hear from Gcook the next chapter in this series.

>>We have always told them they can complete their Ordeal in their new Council.

There's also more information available at the NAUMS (Nat. Assoc. of United Methodist Scouters) site:

http://www.naums.org/INFO/Awards.htm

(This message has been edited by Ursus Snorous Roarus)

Avid has a point -

I used to not just hate - despise winter camping. As a boy, and still as an adult, I hate being cold. But I never learned well enough the many ways to stay warm. And because we lacked the money, I didn't have good winter gear. So therefore, I would do anything I could to get out of winter campouts.

Maybe there's something similar to this, or spiders, or raccoons, or skunks terrifying him in the back of his mind.