Crew21_Adv

Fellow Scouters and nldScouts,

I'd like to make just a few comments, regarding statements about Troops making the mistake or the Troop Committee "screwing up" the process.

Be cautious about transferring blame from the youth to the Troop Committee.

Our Troop Committee and Eagle Advisor has attempted to watch all Scouts and specifically the newest Life Scouts. However, regardless how dynamic and diverse our program is. There will be some youth that become disinterested for a variety of reasons.

Within my own troop, we recently had one outstanding youth. The committee, Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters have spoken and advised one specific Life Scout for two years. He has not been interested in accepting an Eagle Service Project or finishing his final merit badge. He was more interested in part time employment for a few extra dollars for gas and cell phone.

Great young man. Not personally motivated (and could not be motivated by the leadership) to finish the Scouting Trail, he is/was happy to be a "Life for life". Life Scout is also a great accomplishment on the Scouting trail, which not all Scouts attain. This past June, he graduated as Valedictorian of the local high school and obtained a generous scholarship to a prestigious university.

My bottom line, that "trail" was his choice. It was not the Troop that let him down.

So Troop leadership, should advise, counsel, lead, model, remind, and even help; but bottom line again, it is up to the Scout to complete his own trail.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Lisabob,

I'll betcha a patch! Here is a realistic question....

One of the biggest questions they will ask, would be about liability. Regardless of what organization the CO/COR may be.

Most CO/CORs will automatically assume Venturing Boy Scouts of America will precisely equate to undisciplined 6 year old Tigers tearing things up and jumping off of things.

They will probably pitch a scenario to you. "So if one of these 6 year old Venturer jumps off the table and slices his leg clear off. Will I (or their Chartering Organization) get sued?"

If you are selling the program. I would state the "What's in it for me?" or what will the new CO get out of Chartering a Venturing Crew. Amplifying what the will be the mutual benifit to them.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Shortridge,

Greetings!

You have received excellent advice from many volunteers, and maybe one or two professionals here in our forum.

(Still not many professionals blog on the Scouting sites; so that what they may state, will not be used as an official BSA statement)

A friend of mine had stated. Becoming a professional Scouter has taken most of the fun out of it. He stated it has its benefits, getting to meet many great youth and adults. But that the enjoyment a volunteer Scouter has, is lessened when it becomes a job.

I've been told that most professional Scouters work night shifts and not really during the day. These evening hours could be difficult on their own family schedules. A few friends and DEs could not be found during the daytime hours. That was pretty much how the Scout Executive wanted it. As long as they were out making their round of all the pack, troop and crews at night time, and the weekend events. The Scout Executive did not desire them to be tied to their desk, as long as the customer service was being maintained.

They probably lived in the Scout uniform or Scout T-shirt/polo shirt between noon till midnight.

So just a few more things to ponder.

Good Luck in your career!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

T&C44,

Greetings!

As ScoutNut posted.

I use the dyetub webpage. It can be modified, already has scouting related templates. I regularly use them for my District Training Staff, along with a patch.

Without promoting a single business. The dyetub templates appears to be related to the Classb.com T-shirts. So in the future, if you cannot remember the dyetub.com template page. Go to ClassB and you may find the the templates there.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Eagle92 and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I know this topic is about lodge flaps.

But I too have seen a few young DEs begin their career. Some young men or young ladies have never been Scouts, but they were recreation/physical education majors in college.

Few of them saw their new Scouting job as just a job. Most of them, saw Scouting as a beginning of a career. If they were going to be around for a couple of years or a few decades. They made the attempt to get the most out of Scouting.

At the ordeal weekends that I've been to. I've personally never seen our new DEs attending. But I would expect them to jump in with both feet, do some hard work, have a blast, and (back to the "Lodge Flag" discussion) wear their new flap proundly.

Good for the one DE that stuck around at Eagle92 recent Ordeal weekend! I hope he/she really serve their district well.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I have done some hiking around our great Nation (not all the time, not 100's of hikes, but a few). Personally, I enjoy the city historic hikes, reading the bronze placards, and trying to figure out who the statue is, and why the city and state thought he or she was important.

What I would like to state. There are some outstanding "Historic Trails Awards" endorsed by the BSA and local councils.

Equally there are many Hike Awards, established by local troops, local cities, and local historic committees.

Sometimes, for a few Scouters and probably more for parents which have not attended training, the difference between National BSA, the nearby council and local troops, local city gov't, and local historic committees are vague.

When National makes an error and lets us down that is a true disappointment (not dramatic, but a disappointment such as the loss of National Pinewood Derby cars in May 2007 National Conference. And I remember National Supply Center sent me the wrong flag for the National Scout Jamboree in 2005. The real flag purchased months earlier arrived on day 9 of the NSJ). Similar to discussion about Trails End Popcorn, which is an associate company, but not a division of the BSA.

It was a disappointment to a few customers by this National Trails Heritage company, but not the fault of the BSA.

Please remind your fellow Scouters and Scouting parents that National Trails Heritage Awards was another educational business company (maybe meaning well, but poor customer service). The National Trails Heritage Award was not a representative National BSA program.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Concur. In the former curriculum. There was an air of mystery. Staffers were asked not to divulge course agendas, beyond what was stated each day by the SPL at the PLC. It created a path of communications for Scouts to rely on the Patrol Leader and Patrol Leaders rely on their SPL. The PLC agenda was precisely scripted.

"It will be revealed to you at the appropriate time" and "Ask your Patrol Leader" were standard answers to questions regarding what was on the schedule.

Even on the afternoon of day one, thirty minutes after the patrol (of seven individuals not even introduced yet) arrived at their campsite to find all the tents and equipment on the camp table. One hour till darkness, and thirty minutes after the new patrol begins scrambling to squeeze a two hour job in one hour. The Troop Guide comes walking into the campsite smiling, carrying a table top flip chart and ready to talk to the patrol about "Communications". As inconvenient and awkward as this lesson was, the awkward timing was scripted.

In 2002, 2003 and probably 2004. There were probably about 30-60 Scouters whom recently completed the WB21C. Most council Wood Badge Scouters and even former staffers were probably still vague on the recent curriculum changes.

From staffing the WB21C course, if a learner asked what was happening next, we would defer them to ask their Patrol Leader. The Patrol Leader had the agenda for the day, and should have passed an hourly schedule to their Patrol.

If a learner was truly concerned about the approaching training dates and concerned about events. Staffers will usually defer to the Course Director for detailed questions about approaching training days. Most often, the question was only to satisfy the learners curiosity, and not to resolve a personal, scheduling, diet or health conflict.

It appears to be similar to the Order of the Arrow answer to concerned parents. There are no secrets in Scouting. Members like to keep the mystery so that when new members attend they may enjoy the full experience of the whole process.

Timing and a prompt schedule was everything. Even in the prior course, outside just the scope of the curriculum. The learners were amazed when the staffers would do small things like changing neckerchief slides and name tags simultaneously. How a patch (like the Baden Powell Star, now known as the Honor Patrol Star) would be handed out at 0830 and all the staffers had it sewn on at 0900. Also, How participants would walk out of a campfire with the entire staff singing Scout Vespers, walk immediately and directly to Crackerbarrel, only to find the entire staff waiting at Crackerbarrel for the arrival. Learners were always saying "We just saw you at..." Weren't you just wearing a...." "How did you all do that?"

That was just part of the magic surrounding the curriculum. But the staff amazed the learners by sticking to the script, being prompt and on schedule, and rehearsing the course over and over and over. That way the staff was ready for their fellow Scouters and learners.

Because the staff rehearsing the curriculum lessons over and over, their presentation skills were outstanding. Speaking to the fellow Scouters as both a refresher and sometimes newly discovered material. Even if the learners had heard portions of the curriculum before, or just for the first time. They enjoyed the curriculum. They soaked it up like a sponge.

Back to uz2bnowl's question.

The Course Director and SPL should public a listing of personal needs prior to the course. Sometimes they do host a one night Q&A before the course,every learner is invited, but of course not every learner may be able to attend a pre-course Q&A before the meeting. Also, if a learner still arrives without personal equipment and feels concerned that they still are not ready, the course Quartermaster and Assistant Scoutmaster for Support and Physical Arrangements will do what they can to satisfy personal equipment needs that may be lacking.

Essential, in today's WB21C course. All learners should be ready materially. The Course Director should assure this. It's up to the learner if they are ready consciously and emotionally.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Lisabob,

Greetings!

I have created a simulated fire lay for similar indoor ceremonies. From 6 feet away, in darker lighting it tends to create a realistic appearance.

Obtain a 4' x 8' sheet of peg board, and cut in half to a 4 x 4. Secure the fire lay to the other fuel logs by wire and chicken wire. Then wire to the peg board.

Circle all white flickering Christmas lights, thru the center. Between the Christmas lights and wooden logs, and still in the center of the fake fire lay. Place yellow and orange cellophane wrapping paper, between the logs and over the Christmas lights.

Standing directly over it, it appears to be Christmas lights, wrapped in orange and yellow cellophane, and logs surrounding them. Standing at six feet and more, it tends to appear like a realist fire lay.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

I would certainly expect the courses at PTC are worthwhile. I believe the conference cost are fair.

For myself. I have received a few invitations. But never able to attend (yet) for many reasons.

Timing is everything.

In another post I have confessed I was a single father for a few years. Other years, I've committed my entire vacation time to Summer Camp participant and staff, as well as chairing or staffing other unit, district and council events. Other years, when my calendar was not as committed, I could not stretch the paycheck far enough for the course and long distance travel. Humorously (and slightly disappointing), just before my family attend NSJ, I enrolled in a week-long Powderhorn about eight months earlier (October 2004).

Finally, a Powderhorn course that my personal finances and vacation timing lined up. A month out from the Powderhorn course, after I purchased airline tickets, I received a refund check in the mail (not even a letter in the envelope). I had to call and ask why they sent my money back. The disappointment, I found out I was only one of four Scouters registered for Powderhorn at the 30 day limit.

Currently, I'm looking at attending Philmont for the first time with my family, for an upcoming council trek. It would be great to have another week of vacation to spend at the PTC. But I'm just not sure, as we are planning out our family time and Scouting time for the next year.

Personally, Sometimes I have the time, but cannot stretch my budget enough. Other times, I've had the budget, but all my vacation for the year was already spent Scouting.

I expect many other Scouters are in the same position as myself. The desire is there, but the timing is just not right.

But for any of my friends, I would certainly encourage them to try to find the timing and finances to attend PTC.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

SilverFox and Fellow Wood Badgers,

Greetings!

Here are my experiences with the Wood Badge Reunions.

I have staffed a few Wood Badge courses in a few councils. Two specific councils ran their Reunions very well. Both councils had their reunion chaired by the Course Director of that year.

I've only attended weeklong courses, which usually started on Sunday.

One council held the reunion the day prior to Day One, or Pre-Course Staff Day Three (which would be Saturday). All the Wood Badgers present from council would enter Gilwell Feild, a few announcements, certificates, presentations (this specific council awarded the silver spade for those that continued to write an annual 3-part service to council ticket), the group pictures, the Wood Badge song, then depart and walk to the Reunion Feast. At the feast there were more recognitions for farthest traveled, raffles, trading posts, and scholarship fundraising.

Another council also did a Wood Badge Reunion at the 100 Day mark (or the Saturday afternoon nearest 100 days, It was kinda modeled after FDR's New Deal). Most council Wood Badgers would attend. But this reunion was intended to monitor the progress of the recent course's attendees and to continue to motivate them and to discuss resources if the need assistance. This reunion was fun, but the bottom line was a health and welfare check on the recent course.

As I stated, all the reunions I attended were chaired by that year's Course Director, and their Staffers. So they were fully supported by the councils, and considered part of that years course.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Dampcamper,

Could the current Scoutmaster perform better in another, less intensive, Troop Committee position?

The Scoutmaster usually works for the Troop Committee. (I tried to look for the Troop Organization Chart in some Scouting literature, but was unable to find the actual resource.) The IH and COR approve the charter, and the COR and Troop Committee Chair endorse each adult leader application.

One method may be to recommend the current Scoutmaster to another vital, but not direct leadership position. Let them know that an ASM may be recently trained and has time to devote to the Scoutmaster position.

If the Scoutmaster accepts another Committee position, he/she may still serve their Troop.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

My opinion...

I have seen similar and small request to attend a mutual event bloom into exaggerated problems. I've seen at least two situations (and have heard of a few more), where Chartering Organizations and the Scout Units had totally different expectations.

Both organizations (the CO and the Pack/Troop) left disappointed with each other, and by end of the Scout year, the Pack and Troop had to seek another Chartering Organization.

Over the years as a Cubmaster and Scoutmaster, I have been blamed for damage to portions of the buildings, that we do not have keys for, or remote access to. The Scouts are totally innocent of any damage, but once the IH, COR, and their board of directors have their minds made up. There is nothing the Scouts can do to prove their innocence.

Even as a Troop. We have only offered "family camping" once a year. Since some parents cannot understand there is a Senior Patrol Leader or Patrol Leader. We have had to tell parents, that this block of time is for your family, but the rest of the time is Troop time.

It is hilarious, and also damaging when parents (meaning to be helpful, are yelling at the boys to get the bus and trailer loaded up). We usually (and quickly) have to pull those parents aside and ask them to let the SPL handle it. Similar issues may also bloom in a Pack or Crew.

Finally. Normally, BSA and unit insurance will only cover those registered members. Although I love "tag-a-longs" or "mascots" siblings to attend ceremonies. Events away from the normal meeting place have to be carefully thought, is there any risk involved? Can they get burnt with a stick and hotdog? Can a grease fire from bacon splater onto them? Could the get "whacked" by a run away paddle?

I clutch my heart too many times just when the Scouts go out camping. Taking more members of a Chartering Organization may put me in the hospital.

So bottom line. It does help to have all members attending a campout to be registered (and trained) members.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Posters,

Based on the question by evansmc...

We have assumed that the fiance is neither the parent or legal guardian. This is the problem only during accommodations. From the G2SS, here is what it says.

Separate accommodations.

When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his own parent or guardian.

We have offered a few different resolutions.

I can empathize with the single parent. In today's world, many of Scouting parents probably can empathize as well.

The young son, may (or may not) enjoy the company of the mother's fiance. The fiance may be a shining example (or maybe not). What we can assume is that the fiance is neither the parent or a legal guardian. But I would believe a better time to bond with the son and daughter may be during the Cub Scout Den and Pack meetings, as well as GS Troop meetings.

There may be other opportunities for the Scout's mother and fiance to date, enjoy each others company or attempt to bond on mutual ground between the fiance and children.

But we have to remember, this is a district campout, and the Scouting events are aimed at recreational education and development of all the Scouts. Parents and guardians are there for the safety, not for the program.

So at the disappointment or inconvenience of the mother and her fiance. The campout is for all the Scouts, not for the mother and her fiance.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

evansm and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I concur with most all of our fellow posters. The DE should be able to obtain the answer. But I've got a great idea, which I'll address at the end.

District and Council camps are specifically arranged for the Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Venturing membership. The opportunity to attend a Scout camp is for the Scout, not necessarily for the "family".

Without creating a large controversy. There seems to be a difference in the definition in family.

To bring it closer to home....

Just a few years ago, I too was a single parent/father. Eventually, I was courting a single mother. As we began to date, we finally broached some of the difficult topics to see if we may have similar likes and dislikes, discussing work, hobbies, and religion. After a few months of the boys and I always going to different Scout meetings and taking my sons to Scouting events on the weekend, plus youth sports, plus church, plus my own clubs and other hobbies. After a few months, she asked, "what does it take to spend more time with you?" I grabbed my Scout briefcase and handed her an adult application. Silly her, she filled it out and handed it back. I forked over the 10 dollars to the council office though.

We camped together and took the boys to many Scouting events. But we never slept in the same tent, until after we legally became a "family".

If a district was conducting a high adventure event, they would have to have completed a risk assessment and obtain additional medical insurance.

Even if it was a routine camporee. The camp director does not have to accept the liability. But, some camp director's do purchase the additional insurance event coverage, and do accept the liability for unregistered guest.

I doubt the "family" or the single mother and her fiance, you're referring to, has actually been told that they cannot attend a district campout together. I would believe it, if you had said that they have been told they cannot tent together, or arrange mutual sleeping arrangements.

evanscm stated, "This doesn't seem right to deny them an oppurtunity for a family outing? Any ideas or opinions would be appreciated"

Yes. I believe it is right.

I speak from personal experience.

My idea and advice, for 30 dollars and 30 minutes they can become a legal family and for 20 dollars and two adult BSA applications they can become registered adult leaders and resolve most of their own issues. For approximately 50 dollars they would not need to ask this question.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

I try to remain open minded regarding this topic, observing all views, and taking debates, advice and wise comments with a grain of salt and using them to best serve all the boys in my units.

Reading this post, I sometimes wonder if I am reading from a different handbook. Some members of this forum seem to believe that a Scout has earned Eagle when he has completed all their minimum requirements. I believe I've read posters comment how this Scout referred to in this topic has already earned Eagle, before the EBOR even has taken place.

Then why does the application have requirement 6, endorsements and EBOR after the minimum required 1-5 blocks.

If they have "earned" Eagle before the board, then why have an Eagle board of review at all?

I have always believed, the Unit Leader and Unit Committee Chair endorsements are needed, the EBOR reviews the Scout to determined if they have earned Eagle (then either provides their endorsement or not "Scouts review but not advanced".)

Am I reading the application wrong?

Maybe we can ask National BSA to create a shorter form application (like the 1040EZ), complete the minimum, and well hand you the Eagle Rank?

Call me stubborn, call me ignorant, maybe I'm reading it totally wrong. But I believe a Scout is recommended for Eagle before the EBOR and has only "earned" Eagle Rank after the EBOR, Scout Executive endorsement and National certification.

I love seeing Scouts attain Eagle. But I can spend more quality time with my family, if I don't need to attend an EBOR that is not required at all since he has already earned it, before the board even takes place.

Again... My bottom line. Why have an EBOR, if a Scout has already "earned" Eagle?

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Horizon,

Greetings!

I think you may be misunderstanding some of our posters. The time limit is a small factor.

Consider it this way. If a 13 y/o or 15 y/o Life Scout does not show any Scout Spirit.

"Of course, Scout spirit is a part of this discussion. The Eagle candidate's spirit should be such that he is an example to other Scouts."

What if the young man does not demonstrate any Scout Spirit?

A discussion of the Eagle Scout Service Project should come up. "This is an occasion to review the Scout's Eagle service project, but not an occasion to criticize it, rather you should review it with the Scout so that you are comfortable with his completion of it."

What if the EBOR is not comfortable with the completion of the project, or his leadership?

Also the EBOR should "determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting's ideals, both in the troop and outside of it. The board should get a sense of the importance that the Scout attributes to Scouting in his home life, at school, and in the troop. It also shows how the Scout perceives the troop and its adult leaders."

What if there is no or barely any Scout Spirit? (Such as, smiling and saying yes sir when the parents are present, but bullying other Scouts when they believe they cannot be caught)

If a Life Scout does not demonstrate any Scout Spirit, if the Life Scout is not an example to his other Scouts, if the Life Scout has not shown leadership with their service project (or within their troop).

Regardless of age, 13, 15, or 17y/11mo, the Life Scout should receive

"Boys interviewed who are not advancing" on the advancement report.

They either earn Eagle thru the EBOR process or they don't.

Regarding your comment about "bashing". I myself would not call it "Bashing". All unit leaders are entrusted to guide Scouts.

Briefly comparing the output of Scouting to a factory, business, or School there is usually quality control observing a low/high margin throughput. School teachers usual grading on a "Bell Curve", still passing those with a low average, but recommending repeating a grade for those who failed themselves. But sometimes, at 17y/11m, do we lower the quality control. Some Scout leadership may be disappointed in lowering their minimum expectations, or blindly removing all expectations and allowing a potential Eagle to fly (or crash). I myself would not call it "bashing". I consider myself extremely tolerant and forgiving, but I still have had to lower my expectations.

When uz2bnowl, refers to "Iowa", I interpret it to be a state of mind. Not viewing it as one of the 50 states. What are the expectations, standards, and Quality Control of the EBOR in "Iowa" Is it fair to the 13 y/o Life Scout in "Iowa" who is highly deserving to allow a 17y,11m Life Scout to "just pass him and maybe his character will improve" on his last and only opportunity.

Even a 13 year old Life Scout may depart an EBOR and not advance. But in a month, six months or a year, that same Scout may improve their Scout Spirit and return for another Eagle Board of Review, and earn Eagle Scout.

A Life Scout who is 17years 11/12 months does not have any remaining opportunity to improve their leadership, their attitude, the Scout Spirit. The don't have time to stop their bullying, increase their attendance and be an example to other Scouts.

This post is not about "bashing" the age of the Scout. Age is a factor that the Scout has limited and placed on themself.

This post is about the EBOR interpretation of their role, and do they lower their Eagle Scout expectations for a single 17y,11m Scout.

With only one chance at all for a 17y11m, Does the EBOR lower their "Bell Curve" so much lower than what they would expect of a dynamic, high performance, outstanding Scout Spirit, positive role model and shining example 13 year old Eagle Candidate in a neighboring "state of mind".

I expect all Life Scouts to sell themselves to an EBOR. Some Life Scouts may have to work harder to sell themselves to an EBOR, to convince them to overlook lack of Spirit, attendance, participation, and leadership.

Like you asked, "Did they earn the Eagle based on the requirements laid out by the BSA?"

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

uz2bnowl and Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

uz2bnowl asked, "Why should this boy make Eagle?"

I'll give my opinion at the end my post.

I too have also thought about the scope of Eagle Scout candidates. Comparing the Life Scout who has suffered, and studied, and camped, and wrote, and mentored, and taught, and planned, and led, to the Life Scout who was just there.

But in the end; when the are grown adults, they will be able to look back and know what kinds of Scouts they were.

You are describing my troop's most recent Eagle. Good young man, we can barely remember his name. When he was there, he always signs up for events, but never showed up for those events. When he was there he always volunteered to be the Instructor POR, but he didn't remember the basic Scout thru First Class skills, and would just walk away from the patrol he was teaching.

He recently announced and held his Eagle Scout Service Project on the day of another scout's Eagle Scout Service Project. (Without any prior coordination, the other Scout bowed out and let him have that date.) He passed up offers on six other potential projects and presented two other projects plans before the troop committee in the past three years, but he withdrew them deciding they were too work intensive. His project averaged about eight to nine hours.

A friend of mine had previously said "If we set the bar low enough, maybe he'll just trip over it".

He is a good young man, but not quiet the model Scout. He apparently sold himself to the EBOR though, admitting his shortfalls and describing his positive growth. Most of our District's EBORs take about 30 minutes, but our troop's most recent Eagle took over an hour, with 30 minutes for the EBOR committee to decide unanimously. But he was able to convince the EBOR that he was deserving. None of our troop leadership or committee are bitter or feel negative about it, we just feel that it was up to him to present the best case he could.

Another fellow poster to our forum has stated it before, and this seems to describe my troop's recent Eagle and the young man's EBOR that you will attend this next Monday.

"Some Eagle Soar, and some Eagles just flap their wings"

You asked, "Why should this boy make Eagle?"

Cause he has done (maybe the minimum) requirements to earned Eagle, and he (may) convince the Eagle Board of Review that he is deserving.

Good Luck to your candidate, because he will need to sell his value and worth and a potential Eagle Scout to the board.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Lisabob,

Greetings!

What does it take? I don't have a good answer. What is my personal line? I consider myself to be extremely tolerant and forgiving, but I do have my boundaries and they may eventually be crossed.

I have only had two boys over many years. One was a discipline problem, the other was just a simple inconvenience.

One, the SPL, whom was elected by the older boys, not by the new scout patrol. He was a bully, he fought, and he cursed, through alot of Scoutmaster counseling he was a "Yes man". Always saying what the Troop Committee wanted to hear, but doing another thing around his fellow Scouts.

I nearly called his parents to pick him up during one weekend camporee, it was still Friday night and he argued with me for the third time. We were about 150 miles from home. If I knew how much trouble he was going to be, I would not have taken him at all. I later learned of more trouble he caused during that camporee.

I later found out after his tenure as SPL, on a couple of meeting nights, we had thought he was sick and absent, and that was the cause of him missing the Troop meeting. Later to learn that his father had came to pick him up on those two evenings. Months later, I learned that when he was SPL, he skipped the Troop meeting to go to the movies, while his parents thought he was attending our Troop meeting. If I had made aware at the time. I would have ceased his tenure as SPL.

Beyond those mistakes, he made one too many dangerous errors in judgment. I recommended to a well attended Troop Committee meeting that his membership should be revoked (per the G2SS) as a danger to the other Scouts. The committee decided to give him his fourth maybe fifth warning.

The Troop Committee gave him opportunity after opportunity. This was the only Scout, in years, that I ever thought that his family should have researched another youth program.

A different event. During NYLT we had one young NYLT Youth Staffer. His expectations was fun, and nothing but fun. I usually present Scouting as educational fun, or working fun. He suffered from mysterious stomach aches and headaches when it was time for work, but was fully recovered when any of the fun activities occurred. On educational day three, the adult staffers agreed and we filled out the medical paperwork and called his family to come retrieve him.

I have never threw my hands up and said, "that's it, you're going home now". In nearly 30 years, I should have once or twice, but my tolerance was a little more enduring than my common sense or the respect for the other Scouts affected.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

lilzog,

Greetings!

A great campfire activity for a small group of 25 people, would be an interactive story. Probably divided in 4-5 parts.

There are many that can be found online, in both Scouting resources, church resources, and youth resources. Use any search engine to look for audience participation story or interactive story.

Such as, "When I say 'Train' everyone in group A says 'Choo-Choo! All aboard'. and When I say 'Maiden' everyone in group B says 'Oh Dear, I can't pay the rent!'" And so on, and so on. There are many, many stories. Some are seasonal, some have a moral to the story.

Give out the group assignments, practice it quickly and begin the story. If a group didn't her the key word, repeat the phrase louder so they get their queue the again "i said, 'here come the TRAIN!'".

It all can be done in less than 5 minutes. Interactive stories need a good story teller, and a receptive audience. Honestly. I've told them many times, some times they are just okay and entertaining. But many times they are hilarious, a riot, and the audience really enjoys them and remembers the moral to the story.

Good Luck!

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

hherifor and fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

Here are my thoughts.

I'm surprised that a request for audit would come from the DE and COR and not from the parents of the Scouts.

If the parents are satisfied with the performance of the program and the stewardship of their funds, they would keep their Scouts in that unit. If they were not satisfied, they would remove their Scouts and take them to another unit or register them as Lone Scouts.

I can understand the COR asking for an audit, if they contribute funds towards their Scouting program. (I appreciate the CO/COR's, but I have yet to see a CO that assist financially)

To comment hherifor question.

When hherifor stated he was also auditing the leadership. I expect it would be specifically for the handling of their finances. Otherwise, the Unit Commissioner should be conducting a unit visitation and reviewing their unit self assessment tool and their Centennial Quality Program.

Regarding auditing finances.

Most audits for private organization (or community based organizations) are conducted by non-biased financial entities. Locally, our community mandates that all organizations within its jurisdiction will be audited every two years, by a listing of third party auditors (certified accountants).

I would expect, for those Scouting units leadership (financial stewardship) that desire their business to be transparent, and also for families that follow the "trust but verify" ideals, they have probably contracted a third party auditor (rather than requesting another Scouter with CPA credentials to audit).

I know personally, I would rather contract a third party auditor before asking a peer Scouter to audit my units financial records.

References on how to record finances would be in the Troop/Team Record Book, which should be the BSA standard. (other resources may be compatible like the Troopmaster database, but not a BSA standard). The council should also have copies of all Unit Money Earning Applications submitted by the unit. Beyond that, I dont think any other resources are available. I seriously doubt you would find any other examples of a BSA reference of an Audit for a unit.

That being said While this Scouter.com forum has members of various backgrounds (Doctor, Bankers, Lawyers, etc) I doubt any accountant that may be present in the forum has conducted an audit of another Scout troop. I don't expect anyone to answer examples of how to conduct a financial audit of a scout troop.

I honestly hope that hherifor audit goes well, and no significant errors are found with his/her local troop.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

uz2bnowl,

Greetings!

Here is my Wood Badge story.

I attended Wood Badge in the 80's. Just prior to email and the internet era. I had been recommended to attend by our District Commissioner, and informed it was an advanced adult Scout leadership course. I submitted my applications three months earlier (via snail mail and personal check), I think my application beat me to the course director by three hours.

Essentially. There was little information that my fellow learners could learn about the course, before the course actually began. Now, learners can practically read the entire curriculum without experiencing the actual Wood Badge course.

Over the years, I attended the week-long course and have went on to further staffed five additional week-long courses. It's unproven and only an opinion, but Fellow Staffers have usually commented and joked that the one-week course attendees bond more as a patrol.

Humorously, one attendee a few years ago, called the day prior to the course and asked the CD when the educational modules would be presented. This learner stated they knew everything about Scouting and teamwork, that they were too busy with work and other commitments and only desired to attend during the educational portion. The CD stated to the learner, they needed to attend the whole course or show up at registration for an immediate refund (first time Ive ever heard of that). The learner called back an hour later and stated they would be there for the entire course (and had a blast).

Most learners attended with only a vague knowledge of the experience. Some have attended with a few (not all though) of the fundamental lessons. None have really played any games to re-enforce the learning or application of these skills.

Most learners whom have previously attended some of these lessons during work seminars have placed their notes on the shelf to gather dust. Few ever really applying them.

So, those whom attend Wood Badge with an open mind, have usually enjoyed learning these skills and applying them by practice (or re-enforcement games).

How much did I know before I went? Nothing really. It was all new to me.

Do I think it takes away from the course to know everything that will happen before it does? Yes, I think it will take away from the experience to enter with preconceived ideas.

I don't think it will damage a personal experience, but I do believe it will take away from that experience. Most all learners will leave with a decent understanding and commitment, and the success rate of achieving their promise and earning their regalia is a high percentage. But the amount of commitment, and how long will a Wood Badge trained Scouter stay in the Scouting program is questionable. The unique first time experience should add to the course, and enhance a learners commitment.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Mr Boyce and fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

I concur with the answers already provided by our fellow Scouters.

To offer my opinion.....

Finances will always be a part of any organization. Churches are dependent on tithing, public schools are dependent on state taxes, private clubs are dependent on membership fees and dues. Even Red Cross charges fees to teach you First Aid and (waterfront) Lifesaving or "Life Guards".

My opinion. Finances had to be in Scouting from the beginning (as with any other organization).

But finances was not the primary motivator. Otherwise, Scouting would be "slave labor factories" with child labor during school hours. Economic reasons were a means to support the program cost of Scouting.

"Great numbers of men are rushing around trying to set up scouting organizations. Why the rush?"

These men, the initial founders and many other business men saw a need. Even today, I can drive thru my neighborhood, walk thru the mall, pick up my children from school and I see a need for Scouting.

Scouting did not have all the social answers in the early 20th Century, but it did have many answers, and satisfied many needs.

Again my opinion.

But, I truly believe that was why great numbers of men rushed to set up Scouting organizations.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

I highly concur with certain John and Lisa's comments. I tried to illustrate that in my comments, but possible was misunderstood.

I attempted to state by establishing a peer to peer relationship rather than a Course Director-Learner relationship. Attempting to remove the illusion that the experience would become demeaning.

From the beginning of WB 21C, that has been one of the ongoing topics coming back from the CD Conferences. It was best decided the population preferred experienced based, but did not want a demeaning atmosphere. The popular reflections and critiques enjoyed experience based learning seeing the WB experience as a youth (especially working as a team and not as an individual, learning how to network and not stand alone). Since Wood Badge for Boy Scout Leaders and WB 21C common critiques repeatedly enjoyed experiences but were critical of demeaning talk, demeaning comments, and senior-subordinate "know it all-know nothing" insinuation.

I have seen many, many friends temporarily assume the role of a Cub or Scout and enjoy their learning experience, while I also have seen very few friends (2, maybe 3) feel insulted and walk away from training feeling insulted. It's not for everyone, but it appears to be the most effective.

Experienced based learning, or some BSAs practices of asking participants to experience a class in this manner is not popular with every learner. But it is popular and effective with the majority. Ideally if it is delivered in an educational, fun, but still mature manner.

So my bottom line. I highly agree. I do not desire to be talked down to, and have entered many of my training events with many of my own experiences. I dont expect anyone would be comfortable in a demeaning and insulting atmosphere. Where I do disagree with John and Lisa, I do believe the experience based learning and participating as a Scout is effective. While keeping the demeanor mature and respectful.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Nessmuk,

Greetings!

Most Scout trainers attempt to establish a reputation of not being a "know it all" or "too busy to be bothered", but an experienced peer to peer relationship. My friends know that I am experienced, but far from an expert.

I try to make it known to my newest friends.... That even though I've been Scouting for a while, Geez, I still learn something new every campout or Den meeting, Pack meeting or Troop meeting. So during a day of NLE and Specifics, I can learn from them too (no kidding, I really do learn some unique techniques).

Guided discussions. Hopefully, they will learn a little from me, but they will learn much more from each other by networking and discussion. They will answer such questions as "How do you run 3-10 boys thru learning a skill in 30 minutes?" They can discuss the 4 phases of learning and 4 phases of advancement, while attempting to keep a coherent den or patrol. Their experiences are much more than I could ever have thought of sometimes. As we move thru explanation and discussion of New Leaders Essentials and Specifics, I share my experience, but ask them to share their experience and concerns.

Few people are conceptual learners, the can read text based literature once and bingo, they are an expert. They can instruct or guide others thru a skill, as though they have been doing it for centuries. Seriously, they have a talent I wish I had.

I would imagine most people are like me. Experienced based learners. Let me see it, perform it, experience it, then I got it figured out. Because of this, though we don't want to create too much of a divide between adults, but we do desire learners to adopt a mentor - protoge' attitude, our NLE will divide the learners into Packs, Troops, and Crews; and the Specifics staff will ask learners to divide themselves into Dens, Patrols and Crew Divisions. We ask for a Denner, Patrol Leader and Vice President Program, and ask for them to go thru the experience with a view as a youth Scout.

While NLE and Specifics is exposure to fundamentals, paperwork administration and safety. Roundtable is where the real program learning is at.

Roundtable, for an hour and a half is much more effective in experience based learning, guiding Cub Scout leaders and Boy Scout leaders as a youth thru learning a program theme skill they can take back for the coming month.

Probably the best advice for a District training team, is for them to ask learners to participate in the day's events as a youth. And adopt an experience based role, not acting infantile or childish, but going thru the role of using a Denner, using a Patrol Leader, and seeing what the boys experience.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

Fellow Scouters,

Greetings!

As I'm writing a submission to my district and council newsletter on training, concerning this (and other life threatening and serious injuries over the past few years). I have recently learned of this story as well.

This ring of fire appeared to be a summer camp prank, stunt or game gone wrong. There is a previous news release, which barely explains in in just a few details. But it appears the junior staff member that was demonstrating this unauthorized game/stunt, poured rubbing alcohol in a circle (on a makeshift table), and igniting the alcohol. As he poured and added more rubbing alcohol the stream of alcohol ignited and he threw the flaming bottle striking and igniting three nearby boys.

The vague explanation in the press release, appears not to be a sanctioned Scout training session, not a merit badge class. But a stunt or prank that got carried away.

As I write my submission for my local newsletter, My main topic will concern reviewing the G2SS and taking a brief time for risk assessment (or thinking twice).

Scouting and our Guide to Safe Scouting, makes our program one of the best and safest outdoor based program by far. I am not attempting to scare anyone away from Scouting by pointing out serious injuries or tragic loss of life. But I am trying to have fellow Scouters and friends be aware and transfer their concerns to their troops and packs.

While we cannot always have an eye on every scout at all times, we as adults need to be cautious of our own demonstrations and examples, and we need to make sure our Scouts understand the dangers and fun of wood tools (knives), water front, high heat and extreme cold conditions, lightening storms and cooking stoves and open fires.

Similar to reading Boys Life and seeing "Scouts in Action" seriously using first aid techniques that they have learned in the First Aid Merit Badge. The Scouts (and Scouting leaders and parents) need to learn that knives, fires, even water can be dangerous.

If we all (Scouts and adults) use common sense and take a second for a brief risk assessment to ask ourselves, "Is the stunt, event, or hike, really safe?" We will not overcome all accidental injuries (and unfortunate losses of a Scout) but we will reduce those odds significantly.

More than the adults being aware. We really need the youth to be aware of the enormous amount of fun in Scouting (and the few hazards if the G2SS guidelines are not followed).

Thanks for allowing me to rant.

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv