acco40

Anyone else notice the in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each part?

There are a couple of answers. First, it falls into the "If you were a tree what type of tree would you be? category of getting the questionee to pontificate and allows the questioner some insight into the mind of the questionee. Somewhat difficult to do with an Internet forum. Second, manhole covers, usually made of iron and big enough so a man may fit through the opening it covers are very heavy. Round makes them easy to roll when on edge. Also, being round, they won't accidentally slip through the hole they are made to cover if oriented in the wrong way - thus preventing what could be a very problematic accident. How'd I do? :-)

Scoutingagain - the BSA used to have as one of the methods (and I'm paraphrasing) Adult male association. This was later changed to (when Females could become Cubmasters, and Scoutmasters) Adult Association. I noticed this is not listed in on your/the BSA list. It wouldn't surprise me that things have changed but yes, that is new to me. Hunt, what are the Scouting IDEALS? They are simply the Oath, Law, Motto and Slogan. Not what they represent or mean. Of course being trustworthy is much much more important than wearing Scout pants. But as a method, using the Scout Law as a tool is on par (not less, not more) as using the Uniform as a tool. We use these tools or methods to reach our real aim - the goals of Scouting - character development, citizenship training and physical and metal fitness. The Scouting program (BSA version) states that we use these methods to achieve these aims. If we don't use these methods, which includes the uniform, we are not delivering the Scouting program.* The methods are our teaching tools. My daughter has learned to be trustworthy and I've never used the Scout Law with her. There is nothing wrong with that. Pope Benedict is reverent - but the Scout Law and Oath were not the tools used - i.e. he did not learn reverence through Scouting (BSA version). Now what is more important, being reverent or wearing the proper uniform? Well, unless you happen to me Merlyn, being reverent is much more important. And that is why I think many are misunderstanding the Scouting vernacular when I state something like the Ideals are on par with the uniform.

I don't think anybody really gave the correct answer. And the answer is ...... The level of the lake would drop. By stating that it is a brick, I made the assumption that most would assume that the brick would not float. A brick (or anything that sinks) displaces a volume of water equal to its weight in the boat and displaces a volume of water equal to its volume in the water. Therefore, it displaces more water in the boat (making the relative lake depth increase) than when trhrown overboard. The rate of sinking has nothing to do with it. FScouter got the answer but I don't quite follow his last statement about rate. Fuzzy Bear got 90% correct but did quite give an answer.

Seven methods? I could not find your reference. Check these out: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-390 /index.html http://www.scouting.org/identity/los/los.jsp?typ=l os&how=alfa&wat=M Again, are you confusing the seven methods of Cub Scouting The Ideals, The Den, Advancemet, Family Involvement, Activities, Home and Neighborhood Centered, The Uniform with the eight methods of Boy Scouts?

gwd - a troop needs at least three committee members to sit on a BOR. It doesn't need any SAs. So if you husband sits in on BORs, why not register him as a CM and not SA? Simple solution and then you do things "by the book." Also this works too - how many boys do you have in your troop? When one of them is up for advancement and you tell the boy and his parents that you would love to help him advance but that you can't pull together three committee members the volunteer rate is guaranteed to go up - trust me.

Scoutingagain, please re-read my post above. The IDEALs are the Law, Motto, Slogan and Oath. Not "goodness", not "morality." I think you and I are on the same page but are having semantics problems. Wearing a Simpson's t-shirt to camp is not a moral failing. My church doesn't use the Scouting IDEALS (it uses Scoutings IDEAS, much different). Do you repeat the Scout Oath and Law at the beginning of your troop meetings? Why? Is it not a colossal waste of time? You do it because IT IS A METHOD OF SCOUTING! So is uniforming. Would your son be any less moral if his troop did not repeat the Oath and Law and instead studied bible verses (or whatever religious text or moral teachings you believe fit)? Probably not and may even become "more moral" person if that was done instead but you know what THAT IS NOT A METHOD OF SCOUTING! That doesn't make it wrong, just not Scouting.

One of the purposes of the BOR is to see what type of experience the Scout is having in his patrol and troop. Because the SM and SAs usually have direct contact with the boys much more than committee members, a BOR is an excellent opportunity for a Scout to share their feelings on the above and they are more apt to share them with the SM and SAs not present expecially if they have feedback on the conduct of the SM or SAs. Ed, it is my understanding that if you are registered as an Assistant Scoutmaster (SA), you should not sit on BORs.

Quick synopsis - the Scoutmaster is in charge of the advancement program. The Scout is in charge of his own advancement (and behind every Eagle Scout is at least one pushy parent! ;-) The BSA does have some conflict of interest rules in effect - no parents or guardians of the Scout may sit on his BOR (including the Scoutmaster as a silent observer). I have a question for evmori or other SA or SMs who serve as troop advancement chair. Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters are not allowed to serve on BORs yet the advancement chair traditionally chairs the BORs (not required any committee member may chair a BOR and any non-relative/guardian may chair an Eagle BOR). Do you as advancement chair and Scoutmaster never sit on BORs? If you do sit on a BOR, how does the BOR perform the "checks and balances" function of maintaining feedback from the boys on the SM and SAs if you, as an SA sit on that board?

Okay, excuse me while I step up onto my high horse. Scoutingagain and Hunt, I think you need a little education. There are eight methods of to Scouting. They are not prioritized. The Scouting program has decided (not us, but the BSA) that we should use ALL of these methods to accomplish the goals (or aims) of Scouting (character development, citizenship training and mental and physical fitness). Can the aims be achieved differently? Yes!!, but it would not be Scouting. We (assuming you are Scouters) signed on the dotted line to deliver the Scouting program, not just to try and reach the aims of Scouting in any fashion we choose. When the BSA talks about IDEALS it literally means the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Slogan and Motto). These are tools we should use. Yes, the BSA (and Mr. Acco40) place The Uniform as on par with The Ideals (same with Patrol Method, Adult Association, Advancement, Personal Growth, Leadership Development and the Outdoors) as a tool. I think you are confusing the IDEALS with the Aims. Can one have good characeter, be a good citizen and achieve excellent mental and personal fitness and not know the Scout Law or Scout Motto? Of course they can. Same goes for a Scout in a tan shirt and blue jeans. But, we did not promise to deliver that program. We should strive to achieve the aims of Scouting by using the tools (methods) of Scouting. What a novel concept! Now, I'll step down from my high horse and stop my Bob White imitation (inside joke for most of us). Is it a big deal if a troop eats as one big troop and not as a gathering of patrols, decides Scout pants/shorts are a waste of money or decideds that they would rather not do outdoor activities? Well yes and know. I have no heartburn if to a man (or boy) that is what they want to do but then why did they join Scouts? If your son signed up in the fall for the school football team and the coach took all the boys to the ball diamond and had them practice double plays, bunts, hitting the cutoff man, etc. is that a big deal? Yes and know. Sports can teach the same aims regardless of which sport but if your son really wanted to be a football player, I'm betting that he would be greatly disappointed. Same goes with Scouts. If a boy does sign up to be a Boy Scout, don't you think we have a responsibility to deliver that program to him and not some imitation that we feel is alright?

I don't get much satisfaction from working with my hands (keep you thoughts clean!). I don't have an artistic bone in my body. I like cerebral tasks. My vocation is engineering but I tend to work the theoretical side. My wife is the opposite. Her vocation (pre kids) was dental hygienist. Now my two boys both took the Indian Lore merit badge at summer camp at relatively the same age (second year of summer camp). My oldest son (who takes after mom) loved it. He spent hours working on the minutia of his little scale Indian Village made out of twigs, grass, dirt, etc. My youngest son (middle child) put in a half hearted effort and the counselor said his work was not good enough. He re-did his work from scratch and again got the same reply. He got frustrated and ended up getting a partial with a vow to never complete that merit badge. So this year, a second year Scout asked me if Indian Lore would be a good MB to take at summer camp. I gave him a the facts as I knew them, one of my sons loved it, one loathed it. Did he like to make things? Pay attention to detail? Work with his hands? He ended up taking it and loved it! I love problem solving. I don't like tests. I never had that good of a memory so when it came to regurgitate facts, I didn't excel as well as when I was asked to problem solve. Some teachers use tests as a simple measuring stick. I enjoyed teachers who used tests as a teaching tool in and of itself. For example, a physics question I enjoyed was the following: (assume no evaporation or precipitation) You are in a lake, in a boat, and throw a brick overboard. Does the relative lake depth increase, decrease or stay the same? Please feel free to give it a shot with no explanation to give away the answer. I'll give the answer tomorrow. These types of questions don't ask the student to regurgitate equations or facts but they do ask him to problem solve using the concepts that were taught. I always did better in that arena.

We in the western world have a particular view of marriage that is not shared by the majority of the world (imho). We think in terms of maturity, love, financial responsibility and oddly enough "what happens when they divorce." Many in our culture marry for the wrong reasons. Some men marry for sex. Some women marry to escape parents. Many women have babies so that they have "someone to love them." Thankfully, some couples who marry for the wrong reasons grow and learn to love one another and form a great, lasting union. Many cultures believe in arranged marriages. In these cultures, the bride and groom are sometimes quite young. I don't believe their success rate is any lower that what it is in our culture. I think SR450Beaver has a grain of truth in his posting about how our society is "infantizing" our youth today. Also, because of better nutrition, our young ladies are reaching thelarche, menarche and eventually nubility at a much younger age. So with sexual development going to the left and maturity going to the right - it is a recipe for disaster.

We in the western world have a particular view of marriage that is not shared by the majority of the world (imho). We think in terms of maturity, love, financial responsibility and oddly enough "what happens when they divorce." Many in our culture marry for the wrong reasons. Some men marry for sex. Some women marry to escape parents. Many women have babies so that they have "someone to love them." Thankfully, some couples who marry for the wrong reasons grow and learn to love one another and form a great, lasting union. Many cultures believe in arranged marriages. In these cultures, the bride and groom are sometimes quite young. I don't believe their success rate is any lower that what it is in our culture. I think SR450Beaver has a grain of truth in his posting about how our society is "infantizing" our youth today. Also, because of better nutrition, our young ladies are reaching thelarche, menarche and eventually nubility at a much younger age. So with sexual development going to the left and maturity going to the right - it is a recipe for disaster.

A little training info for the uniform police: In my troop we don't feel like following the Ideals of Scouting. You know, the Oath, Law, Motto and Slogan. We really don't feel that it is necessary and it is such a pain in the derrire to follow all the time. What do you think of the above statement? Sound a little ludicrous? So you think that not following the methods of Scouting is a little crazy? I agree. I strongly feel that as Scouters, we've signed up to deliver the Scouting program and one of the methods of Scouting in The Uniform. We should as leaders, follow it and raise the expectation for the youth to follow it. Why do you think that for Wood Badge, Trail to Eagle, NYLT and other premiere training programs that proper uniforming is stressed?

Just to add to what emb021 stated, adult obviously do not have a rank requirement like the youth, but they do have the same "nights of camping" requirement. Also, adults nominations should be based on a different criteria than the youth. Election into the Order of an adult Scouter should take place only when the adults job in Boy Scouting, Varsity Scouting will make the Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. Selection of the adult is based upon the ability to perform the requisite functions (and NOT as an honor or recognition of service) including current or prior achievement and position. ONE ADULT per unit may be recommended each year. Not so sure about more than one with more than 50 Scouts. In our Lodge (the best in all OA!) the Scoutmaster is informed immediately after the election of the youth. He (me) does not share this information with the youth and only with the youth's parents a day or two before the call-out ceremony in the form of a "you may want to attend" type of statement. I do not inform adult leaders either. The tricky part of selecting the adult nominee is who does that task? The committee? The Scoutmaster? What if the SM or the CC are not Arrowmen? Luckily for us, we don't have that problem. Oh, and one more thing, for "nights of camping" the Scoutmaster determines what does and what does not count (cabin, family, etc.). And to answer the original question - it really is simple to join the Lodge of a different council, you move.(This message has been edited by acco40)

My closet was a rocketship. I was lucky, my dad worked for Boeing during the X-15 heyday and I got some cool models. He worked with the ALSAP (ALSEP?) training package of (Bendix, Ann Arbor MI) training some of the Apollo astronauts (no he wasn't a big wig at all). Sadly, knew the ones who got roasted (pure oxygen in the cockpit, how stupid). He brought home a life size cardboard mock-up of either the Apollo or LEM control panel which my brother and I put in our closet (our spaceship). Those were the days!

Who remembers Walter Cronkite with those model "props" of the Gemini and Apollo capsules and explaining to the audience what was taking place. Beave, I got you beat by a year ('56) and vividly remember the Gemini and Apollo launches and have faint memories of Shepard, Grissom and Glenn. The early flights were cool because they would go up and a little while longer, come down! Last night, right at 10:00 PM Jupiter was just on top of the moon on a crystal clear night when the shuttle came streaming buy. You could see it with the naked eye very easily. Been reading "Riding Rockets (The Outrageous Tales of a Space Shuttle Astronaut)" by Michael Mullane one of the TFNGs. I highly recommend it.

An adult leader's number one responsibility is to provide a safe haven for all of the Scouts. Calling them "punks" etc. is not the way to do it. I've had Scouts miss meals, usually it is breakfast and it is because they sleep in. I do not feel it is my responsibility (or the SPL or the PL) to wake them up. The consequences of missing breakfast is they miss a meal. We have our patrols buy cracker-barrel food (snacks) and I've told them and their parents that "food police" is not part of my job description. As a troop, I've requested to the SPL that he assemble the troop before all meals and flag ceremonies. We always take a head count. When they run late, we release patrols that are full. If your patrol is not all accounted for, you wait for them. They all don't have to be present (could be in showers, tents, etc.) but they MUST be accounted for or the whole patrol waits (use peer pressure to YOUR advantage.) Kids should be wearing either their field or activity uniform at summer camp. Yes, I'm aware that not all do but that does not mean that they shouldn't. How they wear the uniform may be a battle (pants to low, boxers showing, brim to the side, etc.) Don't let it get your undies in a bunch (don't sweat the small stuff). Kids at this age are testing their limits. I know that some of the SAs with their oldest son in the troop at the ages of 11 or 12 are not use to the verbal challenges and machinations of 15 -17 year old boys who seem to want to challenge everything. It is part of growing up. Learn to deal with it or step down. Yes, let your JASMs, TGs, SPL, ASPL and PL deal with problems. Empower them and back them up. It is all part of Scouting. They learn from it too. I'm ashamed to admit that I have screamed at a Scout once on an outing - my son. I'm not proud of it. I've come to realize that sometimes it is best to have other leaders, other than myself (the Scoutmaster) interact with some of the boys. My #2 son knows how to push my buttons. At summer camp this year, we had a core of three adults and I came down a little hard on the SPL (no yelling or anything physical) but did have a few comments about him not meeting my expectations on a few matters. This was held in the adult patrol camp site (about 50 ft from the boys site). After the SPL left, his father, the CC, came over and thanked me for my conversation with his boy. There are some boys in the troop who I don't click with. It is human nature. Same with the boys. Some of them prefer certain adult leaders over others. Now, we do try to be consistent and don't play favorites but if certain boys really rub certain adults the wrong way, have different adults deal with them. Above all you have to maintain your composure.

I'm in the camp (pun intended) that says the MB counselor is "God" and what they say goes. If a Scout, parent, Scouter or another MBC don't like it, they should steer Scouts away from that counselor and decide if communicating to the advancement chair (who usually oversees the MBCs) is warranted. Now, one thing I dislike is the rash of "notes" I have to write for the boys during summer camp. The MBCs usually take the SMs view wrt MB requirements. A month or two before we leave for summer camp I address the boys and tell them that if they need me, the Scoutmaster, to sign off on merit badge pre-requisites, please ask me before we depart for summer camp. I do this because I have access to the TroopMaster database and other records and don't wish to haul it all to summer camp. I'm constantly bombarded with Scouts asking me "Mr. Acco40, can you sign-off that I cooked breakfast on our campout two years ago?", while at camp. Truthfully, I have no recollection and they put me on the spot. i don't give blanket approvals or disapprovals but instead work with the Scouts on a unique basis. I try to be consistent but it is difficult. When I sign these notes, I don't state if the Scout has met the requirement (that is the task of the MBC) but simply state something like, "Johnny has spent 18 days camping with his troop which include 16 in a tent and 2 in a cabin. He has also spent 4 days camping with his immediate family at State Park while a member of our troop." With that information, the MBC make the judgment call about if the requirement is met or not. One question I asked my young 1st Class Scout who has well over 20 nights (with the troop) of camping after 14 months with the troop is about the phrase "under the stars." I ask him when has he ever not slept under the stars. I then ask him if he slept under the stars, how do Scouts in the southern hemisphere meet this requirement? Yes, I can be a little obtuse for some of the young charges.

Eamonn, those ponies must have been excellent swimmers! :-0

Thanks for the replies. I'm debating whether I should ask my Scout Executive if I can put it on my right sleeve (a la a Trained patch) just to irk my wife. :-)

I was cleaning out my Scout drawer and came upon my "Bachelor" patch. Yes, I'm married but yes it is a legitimate BSA patch. I received it when I took my Bachelor of Commissioner Science course a few years ago. It is shaped much like the proverbial "trained" patches. My question, where does it go on the uniform? My guess is it replaces the trained patch and goes below my position patch (Unit Commissioner) and above the Commissioner Arrowhead Honor. Any other thoughts?

In my council, working as a CIT allows one to be evaluated in the summer camp setting. This would either help or hurt one depending on how one acted as a CIT. For that reason, working as a "good" CIT gives them a leg up on others who have not worked as a CIT. So, while highly recommended, it is not mandatory for employment as staff. Due to supply and demand, it may work out differently in your council.

Okay, I'm somewhat disgruntled for haveing been told that I can no longer wear my OA Lodge flap, designed for the 2005 National Jamboree by a fellow Scouter. Not sure if he was correct or not but ... Length of pants/shorts is not the issue. Are these the "older style" pants? If so, they should only be worn with the shirts of the same era.

When out in public while wearing my uniform, I've never had any negative comments and usually get some sort of positive response from adults. Still, while first year Scouts still live the wear the Boy Scout uniform (and most Cubs), those pesky teenagers still like to rebel.