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Posts posted by SiouxRanger

  1. On 1/26/2023 at 8:22 AM, fred8033 said:

    Too often committee members work like ASMs.  That's not "preferred".   Sometimes it's necessary due to number of registered adults.    So on camp outs ... just like troop meetings, etc ... scouts work with scouts first; then with SM and the ASMs.  Ideally, scouts don't work with committee members.

    Why "not preferred?"

    And what is the issue if a Committee Member "works like an ASM?"

    A scout needs a mentor, a scout learns, a scout passes his requirement, AND THEN some "rule" is offended?" (Yet, the Scout learned the requirement? Mission accomplished.)

    An adult is needed to mentor scouts. In 25 years I've never heard a scout complain that he achieved a goal because he was mentored by a "mere" member of the committee.


  2. 46 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    Not all units have the luxury of being selective of their Scouters.

    Yeah-me:  25 years in a small boat with the snarly dragon of the "Void of Skilled and Willing Volunteers." (The Void tries its best to suck the enthusiasm from the willing who show up to make a difference.  The Void looks a lot like indifference, but it is more pernicious.)

    Our Troop has about 8 adults who are involved from time to time, and 4 our 5 who are there ALWAYS.

    In my work life, I live in a world of rigid rules where a judge can sentence a defendant to life in prison or order an insurance company to pay an injured person $8 million.

    I cannot get too "wound up" over the formalistic rules of unit operations, dichotomy between Troop Committee and the Scoutmaster corps, etc…

    I take the YPT requirements VERY SERIOUSLY.  Rigid adherence is MANDATORY.

    To my law clients, I say, "In my experience, everyone is just trying to get through the day."  Meaning, that their sibling, child, parent, etc… are not intentionally out to to "get them," just that their sibling…are totally incompetent and lost. And that has almost always been the case.  

    All that being said, in my unit, having a shortage of capable and willing adults, many have served in many positions, and though now registered as a C, they held A and B positions for years.

    So, whether preferred on not (Fred), we have many adults who are registered in one position but serve in two or more positions within the troop.

    Fred, can you explain what "preferred" means?

    When clients call about some work which has been delayed, I say, "I am dancing as fast as I can."


  3. 14 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

    Prior to having children in the program, I was one of those "Grown men" without children in the unit participating in overnite activities. In some cases during those time, I had more knowledge, skills, and abilities in Scouting than most of the parents. And in some cases I was the one training those parents.

    Amen. (Me not one "prior to" but certainly after they aged out.)

  4. On 1/25/2023 at 10:15 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

    The CO approves and has authority over ALL adult leaders in their chartered Scouting program.  If the CO doesn't want someone involved in their Scouting program, they (through the COR) can direct them to leave.

    Is the corollary that "If the CO approves the adult leader, they can participate in all unit activities?"  Or can/should the CO approve an adult leader for only certain activities?  "You can serve on Boards of Review, but not go on campouts."  (How finely can one mince the onion?)

  5. 7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:


    One mentor of mine  never had children of his own. He came back from WWII, and the troop he grew up in needed a SM, and he filled the role. He served as SM of the troop until Uncle Sam called him to Korea. Came back from Korea, and resumed SM job because everyone wanted 'Sarge" back.  Stayed on for over 20 years. Even then he worked summer camp until health started failing him.

    Man who made the biggest impact on me, more than may father, was my SM. He was  the role model for me growing up, and my role model now as SM. He also never had children of his own. HIs nephew's troop needed an SM, and he volunteered. He stuck with it for over 25, until a new job required him to move.

    Prior to having children in the program, I was one of those "Grown men" without children in the unit participating in overnite activities. In some cases during those time, I had more knowledge, skills, and abilities in Scouting than most of the parents. And in some cases I was the one training those parents. Further, I had better rapport with the youth than the other adults because I was closer to their age and I had no children in the unit, so when issues arose, they came to me.

    I can go on and on about the great Scouters who didn;t have children, but I will leave you with the following:

    Not all units have the luxury of being selective of their Scouters. We are a small unit of 6 Scouts. Of all the registered Scouters, I am the only parent. One has no children at all as he recently aged out, but for current YP purposes, doesn't count. My predecessor as SM stuck on as an MC after his son aged out, and plans to stick around. His predecessor is a COR/MC whose kids aged out as well. The 3rd MC served on a variety of district and council roles after his son aged out 16 years ago. Always partial to the troop, but got tired of the BS I posted abotu on my council in another thread, and came back to the unit.

    If you have concerns, maybe talk to the folks who know the person you have concerns about instead of letting your biases control you. That Scouter may be the best thing the troop has going for it.




    I regret that I have one Upvote to give for this post.

    • Haha 1
    • Upvote 2
  6. On 1/25/2023 at 6:21 PM, nolesrule said:

    The point of being registered is that they have had the background check and they have done their YPT certification. 

    That is precisely the point.  If you are registered, then you have had/done both. Not registered, may YPT but unlikely background check. Registration is a a quick and easy way top determine compliance.

  7. 7 hours ago, KublaiKen said:

    in our Chapter all candidates are on the ballot and the SM only uses a strike if the candidate is actually elected.

    So, as I read this, all scouts who have met the OA qualifications are put on the ballot, and stand for election.

    The SM does not exercise the SM's discretion to exclude from the ballot a scout that the SM believes should not be elected.

    The doomed scout's name appears on the ballot and the doomed scout knows he was on the ballot. The doomed scout does not know he is doomed.

    The scout electorate believes the doomed scout to be a viable candidate because he is on the ballot, and perhaps deems him worthy and elects him to the OA, not knowing that their vote won't count.

    And what is the color of the Truth in presenting a ballot to an electorate when the "fix is in?"

    After the doomed scout is elected, he is told that he was not elected.  (But he was.)

    And what is the color of the Truth in telling a scout he was not elected when he really was elected?

    Or maybe the SM has the backbone to tell the doomed scout that he was elected, but that the SM is denying him membership in the OA.  And how is that message delivered?  Such that the Scout has a path forward to qualify next year?. 

    And how does the scout reconcile that his fellow scouts thought he was worthy, but the SM is the roadblock?

  8. 4 hours ago, qwazse said:

    The dress, dances, etc ... should honor local tribes

    I live East of the Mississippi.

    In my state, I know of no "local tribes" which have a presence here any longer. I've lived here for more than 60 years. The only tribes claiming their origin in my state are far away. They have no presence here. Occasionally, a representative of a tribe will appear to speak to some issue.  Maybe once a decade.

    And even at that, I have little sense or knowledge of their removal from my state, the depth of their connection to my state.

    How does one even determine which tribes occupied their area, and their current representatives?

    And, "honor."

    So, if an OA lodge's ceremony script is respectful of not only Native Americans, but people generally, is that OK?

    The Lenni Lenape script of my local OA Lodge is inspiring to me, a non-Native American.


  9. 4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

    ⁹0The national committee should mind their own business.   If a lodge can come to an agreement with their local Native Americans then leave them alone.  If not give advice concerning alternatives.   But don't issue cease and decist directives where there is no problem.



    I am struggling to understand the concept of "cultural appropriation" and continue my studies…

    But in the meantime, does an OA Lodge have some obligation to either obtain approval or conform to the Native American Personna of a tribe LOCAL to the Lodge's location?

    That is, can an OA Lodge in Minnesota adopt a Seminole personna?

    In my 50+ years of attending OA tap-out ceremonies in my Council, the ceremony always referenced the Lenni Lenape, which are from the upper Northeast.

    So, are all OA Lodges to conform to the regalia of the Lenni Lenape?


  10. On 1/15/2023 at 12:06 AM, SiouxRanger said:

    I find this photo to be unsettling. Are these Order of the Arrow members of the KKK folks? I just can't tell.

    I do dislike auto correct.

    What I typed was "Are these Order of the Arrow members or KKK Folks?"  (Not "of.") Maybe that makes no difference to InquisitiveScouter.

    But, I was NOT intending to equate the OA with the KKK.  I just can't make sense of the picture. I must be missing something.

  11. On 1/12/2023 at 8:02 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

    The first ones were in black robes.

    Here's a pic from the birth of my home lodge:



    You could easily ditch the headdresses.  And you do not need a fictional story of Native Americans to promulgate ideas about Brotherhood, Cheerfulness, and Service.

    You could easily find stories to demonstrate these during the Colonial period, or during the American Revolution, or the westward expansion, etc.  It should not be offensive to find and tell a story from some native tribes to demonstrate these principles, either.  They need not be from your area particularly, since you are ditching the wearing of clothing to mimic.

    Or, if a lodge wanted to incorporate stories from their local first peoples, there's plenty... 574 recognized tribes in the US.


    P.S.  Gotta love the ties!!

    P.P.S.  Also see https://oa-bsa.org/history/first-ceremony

    I find this photo to be unsettling. Are these Order of the Arrow members of the KKK folks? I just can't tell.

    • Downvote 1
  12. On 1/11/2023 at 11:29 PM, HashTagScouts said:

    The arguments for the overnight are it is the entire purpose of the Ordeal: a night away to reflect on what challenges you are asked to place upon yourself, and whether you are worthy for the honor.

    That is the CORE of it, and, for me, changed my life.

    • Upvote 1
  13. On 12/29/2022 at 3:15 PM, HashTagScouts said:

    Sad day for sure. Expected announcements tonight that regalia of any kind will no longer be permissible. Also that the 24 month window to complete Ordeal from election date will be permanent. A lot of us are questioning exactly what it is we are trying to keep alive at this point. I'm interested to see if they make any comment on the proposed idea of eliminating the Ordeal overnight - that's pretty much the deal breaker for me.

    I've never been too involved with the OA, though an Ordeal member. My Troop was small, there were few of us in the OA, and fewer yet were interested in attending OA activities.  Somehow, time just did not allow. My huge involvement in Scouting otherwise just cast OA to the shadows.  That being said, I do understand that the OA is a huge factor spurring the involvement in Scouting for many who pass from youth to adults.

    So that I can understand you better, with respect to your post, from whom were you expecting announcements regarding regalia?

    The 24 month window, is that more or less than previously, and does extending or shortening it have some effect on the OA, and what effect?

    The Ordeal Overnight-what are the arguments for and against eliminating it?  (I did the overnight, and thought it was great.  I bought into the whole Ordeal Weekend and live it to this day.)


  14. 17 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

    Just make sure you remember my correct pronouns when we get lost together.

    Your Majesty / His Majesty

    "Get lost together?"

    Hopefully, you'll have a sticky tag with all the pronouns you prefer for your body bag.

    And so, at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, a cocky boatman asked me what I'd do if I were lost in the Grand Canyon?

    "I'd set a huge fire. It would be seen. Rescue folks would arrive."

    "You can't do that.  This this is the GRAND CANYON!"


  15. At the rate things are trending, we'll have:

    Citizenship in the Solar System

    Citizenship in the Galaxy

    Citizenship in the Universe

    Well, probably not in the Universe until ZIP codes are assigned.

    I just have to agree with sentiments that Merit Badges are more and more academic.  Less and less experience.

    Me, just a nobody, I can build a fire in a pouring rain. Period. And yeah, in a torrential rain.  I am a master at it.  OK, not a master, GENIUS.  I am really good at building fires.  Get lost in the Wilderness, get lost with me, if you are so lucky.  (And my 2 degrees from a land grant university will not save my life.) What will save my life (and yours) is what I learned in Scouting.

    And that is how it is.


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