SiouxRanger

As near as I can tell, “equitable muteness” means the appellate court recognizes that the trial court screwed up horribly, but that so many people believed that the trial court knew what it was doing, and relied on that belief, or even the trial court’s Judgment to proceed with enforcement of the trial court’s Judgment, that the appellate court system does not want to disappoint them at the appellate level.

Which raises another issue.  A trial court could issue a Judgment of doubtful legal propriety, and then authorize immediate implementation of that Judgment, “NOT pending appeal,” thus rendering the court’s judgment “unappealable” due to the doctrine of “equitable muteness.”

Essentially, a lower court can sabotage appeals of its own Judgments by ordering immediate implementation, NOT pending appeals, thus providing the appeals court with the “out” of “we can’t review or reverse the trial court’s judgment because of “equitable mootness.”

Appeals court:  “Even if the trial court is hopelessly wrong, its erroneous judgment has been implemented so extensively, that, per the doctrine of “equitable muteness,” we will not reverse the trial court’s judgment.”

So, the trial court got it all wrong.  The Appeals Court feels its hands are tied and can’t reverse an erroneous trial court judgment, and the wrongs, of a trial court, are not righted.  Hmmm.  American Justice?

This analysis gets really ugly.  So, if the trial court’s Judgment is based on indifference, ignorance, bribe, roll of dice, cab driver’s opinion, barber’s opinion (not to slight landscapers, frog wranglers…), laziness, dumb guess, whatever…per the doctrine of equitable muteness, an appeals court will not change the trial court’s Judgment.  Hmmm.

(Whisper:  if totally incorrect trial court Judgments can be rendered unappealable, do we even need law school educated trial court judges? Perhaps an articulate magpie can do the job, as along as the court clerk adds, “Enforceable not pending appeal” to the court order and the winning parties rush to enforcement.)

So, just who wants to proceed immediately to implement the trial court’s Judgment and thereby effectively make the Judgment unappealable?

Those who believe they got a good deal from the Judgment.  BSA, certain insurers, and any party to this mess opposing the appeals-they figure they got a good deal.

I truly hope that attorneys on this forum with greater knowledge and experience on these matters than me chime in on the whole BSA bankruptcy process we have seen, and on the doctrine of equitable muteness, and my comments here-maybe I’ve got it all out of balance.

Lord Michael Baden-Powell autographed the first book I ever bought-my Scout Handbook.

And for those who doubt the importance of the "role-model" model, I was an adult when I met him (10 years ago?) and I remain impressed, motivated, and inspired to this day.

I met Lord Michael Baden-Powell some years ago at a Scouting Museum in the Midwest. I was invited to a reception for him at a museum. I expected some pompous, entitled British aristocrat fresh off a World-Class Brownsea event in England, disdaining his attendance at a museum reception in the states. (I learned he willingly accepted the invitation, coming from England to the Midwest on his way home to Australia.)

I think he was 72 then.  For 4 or 5 hours he greeted the reception line…with an incredible level of enthusiasm, which I have never seen exhibited anywhere b.y anyone.

"Your name, Scout?" "Ahhh, Tim, I am so glad to meet you." (Shaking the Scout's hand-engaging the Scout's eyes.)

"What do you enjoy most of Scouting?"  "Of course, you are like so many. Wonderful things…"

"I see you are a First Class Scout. Excellent."

"And you plan to work toward Eagle?" "And you should."

"I have a small gift for you (and he did)." Presenting it to the Scout. (He had an entire table set up with gifts for several hundred Scouts.)

"Keep making progress on your advancement…"

And the next scout, "Your name, Scout?…"

And so it went…

Hour after hour after hour-about 5 hours without break.

I have never seen such an enthusiastic demonstration of the Scout Law principles of:  Loyal, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, and Cheerful, in one sitting for so long, ever.

I was stunned.

Lord Michael Baden-Powell was an uncommon man by birth, but a common man by touch. Everyone was charmed by him.

The event started about 5 pm, and we finally got to the restaurant (I was invited as a friend of the museum founder) at 10:30 p.m.

In my humble opinion, there will likely never be another more vibrant or effective supporter Scouting than Lord Michael Baden-Powell.

A titan has been lost, and the world has darkened a bit-and slowed.

A Pillar of Scouting whom I met once. Simply no equal to my knowledge in the Scouting Movement.

He was the exemplary example of the "Charity of the Scouting Soul." He has no equal other than BP himself.

Sorry for being such a pest

I truly want to understand current scouting events. And I have a long involvement in Scouting (over 50 years all the way to council level) and even at that, I miss the nuanced meaning of many of the acronyms commonly used on this forum.  And I have t spend some minutes checking out their meaning.

"Not to put too fine a point on it," but if a poster here leaves their reader to check out Google for the meaning of some acronyms-they won't bother and that reader will be lost to the conversation.

It would just be so helpful to get the acronym AND the meaning of the acronym up front. (Being a lawyer, we lawyers ALWAYS  give the acronym and its spelled-out name at the beginning of a document so the reader can "track along.")

I have said it before on this Forum, with little apparent effect, and I say it again, this Forum is THE VOICE OF THE VOLUNTEERS,.

And this Forum can be a vital tool/medium to communicate with and among the volunteers. And I assure you, the Scouting Professionals watch this Forum intently.

JOTA/JOTI JID…Oo-ee, oo-ah-ah, ting-tang, walla-walla bing-bang.

Of course there's JOTHKT. And JIADPL. JIAUMF.

On 10/16/2023 at 12:28 PM, Mrjeff said:

Sure my friend.  AIA is a common acronym used by Order of the Arrow members meaning American Indian Affairs.  Some my claim that this is offensive but our AIA chairman is an American Indian and uses the acronym freely.  The national OA leadership banned all AIA activities at the National OA Conference

Thank you my friend.

I appreciate the clarification. I don't miss too much, (check out my Scouting resume) but there is so much I just do not hear about current National Scouting issues not on the radar of my Council, and a bit of help by way of explanation helps me (decide to) engage in the conversation and to follow it,  AND LEARN.

This Forum has incredible power.

I just think that there are many "lurkers" (I do not like that term.  Sounds ominous.  I prefer "folks who are curious", but need written help envisioning why they should pay attention or engage in the discussion. And maybe take action.)

And this Forum can provide those explanations-from experienced, serious. life-long time Scouters. (Where else will they find it?)

The point of my post was that this Forum can be much more than just a discussion among very experienced, very knowledgeable Scouters "sitting around the campfire" of this Forum speaking terms with cryptic references to issues, all alluding to and having a the depth of the problems and their depth of knowledge of the Scouting program.  But NOT projecting any understand to folks And there is no problem with that.

But this Forum can be a vehicle of CHANGE.

But to do that, volunteers need to be motivated to make change.

And, where do volunteers learn WHY change needs to be made.

Here.

From you experienced Scouters.

THIS FORUM is perhaps the only existing vehicle of BSA change.

So the experienced and knowledgeable Scouters here need to give guidance 

And newbies need to understand that change need be made.

I'd just suggest that in your initial post, or an occasional follow-up, if the thread runs long, just mention why things are being discussed and why that is important.  

I have long held the belief that folks speaking (communicating to others) bear the burden of making themselves understood.

If I speak, I have to address my audience and speak in terms they understand.  And if they are children, well, tone down the legalese, and if Phd's, well ramp it up.

This forum is a wonder.  Such a useful thing. And It should be not only a means of communication, but also a means of education.

It is a useful tool to communicate amongst dedicated and vigorously involved scouters-we really care. (And without us, (volunteer led organization) what would Scouting be?))

Toast.

And "AIA"???

I figured that out maybe a month ago. (Did not find the answer today.) Nor can remember. Hate age.

Just suggesting that maybe a sentence of explanation to describe the acronyms would help educate those seeking knowledge in our forum but are just newbies. (And I am a 60ish (60 years scout in!) newbie and I struggle with "AIA."))

And maybe a sentence about the whole issue, what it was, what has changed…why the new policy/practice is good or bad..

9 hours ago, yknot said:

You're welcome. Migration is often thought of as a daytime event, which it is for many species, especially the very visible raptors, or because of what is seen during local fallouts and daytime feeder visits. Songbird migration, though, at least on the wing, is largely a nighttime phenomenon. Hopefully things like Birdcast will help build an appreciation for what is overhead on many nights in the spring and fall. The recent full moons in the northeast have been great for showing this to kids.

Unbelievable. Incredible. Had no idea such a site existed.

I have some vague recollection of a bird which was named the "Tennessee or Carolina... or ??? Warbler) back in Audubon's time, the "joke" being that the bird was "collected" in the state of its name, but the bird never resided there-just migrating through.

On 10/5/2023 at 10:58 PM, yknot said:

Birdcast

Oh, thank you so much for this.  I had no idea how many birds were migrating overhead. I've seen the warblers move through in the Spring, but no sense of the number of birds. And the hummingbirds who arrive and KNOW where the feeder was last season (me being late to put one up this season) they circle the corner of the house where the feeder was hanging in the Fall. They remember.  Smart critters. And the ducks, and geese. Aways heard geese flying in the Fall at night. Just no sense of the vast numbers migrating.  And an article about the number of birds dying in Chicago during the migration.

@Cburkhardtyou seem to have deep involvement in council level operations and successfully so.

My involvement with my council has been at the District level, but also as a member of the Council Board, and as an attorney, I see things in much greater legal depth than most folks.

On 9/14/2023 at 10:48 AM, Cburkhardt said:

The principal challenge for the four predecessor councils was an inability or unwillingness to adequately govern and manage Scouting. 

I just ask who was responsible for "adequately govern and manage Scouting?

On 9/14/2023 at 10:48 AM, Cburkhardt said:

The principal challenge for the four predecessor councils was an inability or unwillingness to adequately govern and manage Scouting. 

And who failed in that?

In my Council, volunteers are relegated to ministerial work.

On 9/14/2023 at 10:48 AM, Cburkhardt said:

This probably all sounds a bit simple.  That's because the challenges and solutions were very apparent.

This an indictment of the ability and capacity of the "Professional Scouters" as you, a non-professional scouter, not trained by National to manage a Council, see the inadequate management of FOUR NATIONALLY CHARTERED COUNCILS as INADEQUATE.

"Very apparent," and so, why so?

So, FOUR FAILED Nationally commissioned Scout Executives. Hmm. (Now, arguably only one or two of the four were "Failed" but can one thank National for being only one-quarter or half right?

And I find it very disturbing that an amateur, non-professional has to identify the gross operational failures of four Nationally chartered Councils and establish a modicum of operational normalcy.

And all to so no denigration of @churkbardt 's role-she/he fixed a mess…

And so, I suspect have so many of us others…

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

So when the conversation goes in a the-lawsuit-is-all-just-a-malicious-attack direction, the implication from a survivor point of view could very well be "I care more about the BSA as an organization than my fellow scouts and scouters". I can't speak for the survivors, but that's what I take away from what you're arguing.

It is not clear to me to which poster you are referring. But that is not my position.

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

Serious crimes were committed against our fellow scouts en masse. That really happened. That is the real problem. (And I'm glad you did acknowledge it in a sentence.)

Does this reference something I posted? If so, which sentence.

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

What the BSA should have done in each case of alleged abuse is file a police report and let them investigate and worry about the prosecutability of each case. That's the "do more" that people think they should have done. (Including me.) It isn't the BSA's job to prosecute crimes, so while you're correct in that the BSA was in parts indeed trying to keep scouts safe (and sometimes succeeded, as detailed in both documentaries and as people here on the forum know cases of), the responsibility of enforcing laws and ensuring public safety lies with police. When you think a crime has been committed, you call the police and you help them as best as you possibly can. This is the principle, including but not limited to when the crimes involve the BSA and/or pedophilia. 

Yep. And then, at least the BSA has done its civil duty.

On 8/23/2023 at 10:41 AM, AnotherScouter said:

A lot of questions here, I will try my best to fill in where I can. Thanks everyone for your thoughts and insights. From what I can tell, this is all coming from the President of the CO and/or the board of the CO through the President. The unit is just a few years old, and I am one of the founders of the unit. Now that the unit has gotten bigger and the scouting program is becoming more successful, it seems the President of the CO wants more control over how the unit operates. 

1. Emails - they say it's for continuity when leadership changes. Of course this doesn't really mean much because 90% of communication happens outside of email. it just makes lives more difficult for the volunteers. Also raises issues because people still use personal emails for scoutbook and trooptrack. 

2. Banking - sounds like this is pretty normal (except for taking the funds part). Although the charter agreement does say the unit should have it's own Account. 

3. Fixed term and CO. Yeah I understand it is their right to choose the Scoutmaster. Feels odd to have no transparency and say "OK starting on X date, this is your new SM" without taking any input from the scouting leadership or even providing any insight into the decision making process. We don't know how the candidates were chosen or what criteria was used to choose the new SM. 

4. The CoR is very involved in the troop, he is also one of the founders, but the issue is that the President wants a direct line to the SM. Basically the President wants to bypass the CoR and CC and work with the SM directly. I've been told they chose the SM specifically as someone who would listen to the President and the Board of the CO. 

The micromanagement is a good insight. That is definitely what is happening here. And it's not good leadership. I agree the CO being more involved would be good if they were working with the volunteers who know how the scouting program works and what scouting is about. The issue is that the CO knows very little about Scouting, and care more about it being part of the CO, and being a religious program. I fear this is going to dilute the quality of the Scouting program. We have some very highly trained and passionate individuals who founded the troop (Wood Badge trained, etc) but their advice and goals seem to be secondary to what the President wants to see here. 

It sounds like this is all within the CO's right to run the Troop like this, so if I disagree I should probably find another Troop which is run with some more autonomy. My approach is going to be wait a few months and see how things shake out, then make a decision. Thanks all

When flow chart and operational discussion gets to this level, time to find a new chartering organization.

• General Taylor: Woah, Dick, put the brakes on. I wanted to wait until airman left to talk with you. Dick, I'm transferring you.
• Sgt. Major Dickerson: Transferring me? Where to sir?
• General Taylor: You're going to Guam.
• Sgt. Major Dickerson: Guam sir? There's nothing going on in Guam. Why Guam?
• General Taylor: Dick, I've covered for you a lot of times cause I thought you were a little crazy. But you're not crazy, you're mean. And this is just radio.

And a Scout Troop, as important as it is to the lives of the youth, it really is just a Scout Troop. Tiny finances, sparse adult leadership, huge burdens on the few adults who actually show up, tons of communications, phone, email, text…

And, frankly, in my 25 years of troop service, had anyone ever stepped up to help, what a Godsend.

And had anyone stepped up, only to get in my way and not help, well, "here are the keys, good luck…"

Most units don't need a minute's distraction putting on the program.

As one who grew up in the program, all ranks, cubs, scouts, Eagle, local camp staff, Philmont Ranger, when an interloper with no scouting experience seeks to disrupt the troop's operation, either they back off, or we all leave.

Some would blame Soros for this (by virtue of some convoluted conspiracy theory) but that blame tactic is long fore-shadowed by Cato the Elder whose hatred of Carthage was so deep, that he ended his every speech in the Roman Senate with, " Carthāgō dēlenda est ("Carthage must be destroyed").

And tell me how does hatred solve problems?

On 8/17/2023 at 8:02 AM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Just Google 'BSA "rape culture"' and you'll get lots of results.

And a Google search is proof of fact?

Hardly.

5 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I remember someone from National in the early 90's saying the majority of scout abuse complaints were filed against the MB Counselors. This might be an approach to addressing that issue.

Barry

Gee.  First time I have heard that.

My council has not appeared to have dropped any merit badge counselors from its rolls in centuries.  Maybe 10 in 100 on the list are active. 90 out of 100 calls for assistance are met with "You are calling me for what???"  Or, no replies to emails.

The "password" (old TV show) is "Administrative efficiency."

7 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

Specifically, small but very vocal activist segments of Socialist/Communist, atheist, and LGBT groups.  I've been watching the attacks since the 1980s. There have been others but those 3 communities have predominated in the attacks on Scouting that I've seen in public media for the past 40 years.

Meaning Scouting as I've known it is done -- you can't roll back the clock.  The separations we're seeing with charter organizations, youth departing for other activities or organizations, these are all indicators that Scouting will never go back to what it was even if the socio-political attacks stopped tomorrow.

I must move in wider social circles.  I've seen parents actively deflect their boys away from Scouting.  We've gone from an era where it was acceptable (but dorky) to wear your Scout uniform to school to an era where it isn't even acceptable lest the Scout get verbally abused.

There are still plenty of cases where the miscreant is still alive -- I have seen precious few (none, actually) tort cases pursuing the miscreant for their actions.  From what I understood, BSA agreed to the settlement because the class action lawyers expanded the class so much that there was no hope of getting into details of exactly how BSA was liable in these cases -- and consequently, the risk of going to trial was just too great.  I may be wrong on that but that's how I understood the decision to settle.

Scouting has not been my only extracurricular activity but it was the main one for roughly 40 years until I retired from Scouting.

I have had little regard for the "professionals" at National for much of that time as I saw the program diminished year after year.  Looking at the Handbook or Field Guide from the 1960s or 1970s and comparing it to what was published in the 1990s or 2000s was somewhat demoralizing.  Even before the settlement, some of the financial deals originating at National were IMO suspect and placed the organization on a bad financial footing for the future.

On the other hand, I still maintain BSA as an organization did not damage these victims.  I find it ironic that the step BSA did take to protect youth -- maintaining secret files of suspect volunteers -- was what was used to push the lawsuit forward and force a settlement.  As you say, the principles of liability have been long established and outside this particular case -- and BSA prevailed against being held liable for many reasons, not the least of which was that there is a very real difference between miscreants evading the protection protocols and the organization supporting or even actively ignoring them.

In my world, a statistical analysis means a voluminous data collection and rigorous mathematical analysis.  I haven't done that so I stated I haven't done a statistical analysis.  However, simply reading the reports and accounts over the years shows numerous instances of assaults through youth athletic teams.  Girls' swim teams, gymnastic teams, basketball, volleyball, etc.

In my experience, there very few parents present at high school and even junior high school practices, team rallies, etc.  Coaches used to frequently have 1-on-1 sessions with athletes and from the accounts I've read, this is often when the assaults would take place.

In the reports I've read or heard, many if not most of the assaults in Scouting similarly did not occur at group activities like camping when the miscreant was likely to be discovered but instead at private sessions at homes or other isolated places.

 

As stated above, most of the accounts I've read or heard were not at camps but instead at isolated places like homes or (in the case of sports teams) gym facilities which the coach knew would be vacant.

You seem to want to dismiss my statements as a strawman but this is something I heard directly from a family member, the wife of a cousin, in a family Message channel.  I've heard it repeated on popular media and in public forums online.  Direct, first-person witness to these statements here.

The attacks on what have traditionally viewed as pillars of American society have been going on in public media and discourse for decades.  Various bad actions have been bundled together into wholesale attacks on clergy and churches for decades.  The same has went on with attacks on the police -- including direct physical ambushes of policemen  in their vehicles -- portraying Michael Brown as a "teenager" (technically he was one at 19) and overlooking his assault on the officer who finally shot him in self-defense.

Activist elements in American society have been pushing against Scouting for decades.  During the Clinton administration, my Scout troop was denied permission to camp at the US Air Force Academy because of recent policy changes (which were reversed after Clinton left the White House).

Denial isn't a river.

Good luck to you.

On 8/7/2023 at 7:49 AM, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

There has definitely been an ongoing attempt to undermine American institutions for most of my life.

By whom, how?

20 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

This switch from the fact of the crimes to claiming BSA had a "rape culture" (something I have heard personally from family members) or sponsored these activities is a typical example of the leftist tactics in this regard.

I just cannot understand this.

Until your post I don't recall anyone, anywhere claiming BSA has a "r...c...."

This smacks of a "straw man" argument where a false, inflammatory statement is made, then to dramatically knock it down.

My recollection of basic logic (Copi-look him up-took a university 3 credit hour course on logic) is that the logical structure of "If P then Q," if P is assumed to be true, then Q is always true.)

So, as applied to your post, if "family members' statements" are presumed to be true (when might they be available for deposition?), then any statement you post after that is TRUE (logically)-even if false.

And, who switched? Exactly, precisely WHO switched?

I am not trying to give you a (pointless) hard time.

But words matter. And the senses, tenses, innuendos, flavors, intimations...of those words.

There are many folks on this site whose lives have been tragically affected.

Every post here raises their hopes of lowers their hopes.

After all they have endured, they do not need a roller coaster ride.

10 hours ago, DeaconLance said:

You didn’t pay attention to the Penn State scandal?  Many youth sports have week long camps and weekend trips requiring overnight accommodations.  The opportunities were and are there.

And yet, the statistics?

10 hours ago, DeaconLance said:

You didn’t pay attention to the Penn State scandal?  Many youth sports have week long camps and weekend trips requiring overnight accommodations.  The opportunities were and are there.

Well, agreed, week-long sports camps provide similar opportunities, though scout unit campsites are intentionally wide-spread to enhance the wilderness experience. Never having any experience with sports camps-just scouting.

5 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

The percentage of heterosexual pedophiles infiltrating school athletic teams or other youth groups is at least as high as it was for Scouting -- surprise, surprise, miscreants actively seek opportunities for their targets.

I would really like to see sources and statistics for this.

From my experience, opportunities for abuse in children's sports seem to be much less than those in Scouting camping experiences.

Kids leave their parents' car, go to the field, play, return, and leave. Where is the time for things to go wrong?

Scouts are gone from Friday afternoon until Sunday morning.  Two nights. Lots of time window for abuse to happen.

On 8/7/2023 at 10:39 AM, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

Well what was the point of having the pervert files?!?!

I think, theoretically to identify the problematic and exclude them from future participation in the Program.

As near as I can tell, all done via paper and manual tallying.

But in that era it was a very limited and missed many "hits."

"Bill J. Smith" became "Jim Smith." Or "John Smith," or "Fred Gonzolabus."  Who would know?

Never saw anyone check an ID.  (Just 50 years in...And not my fault as I NEVER heard a word from the Council that abusers could be among us, nor have I ever seen nor heard of any claimed abuse. And NEVER instructed to be on the lookout-registration was my assignment.)

5 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

First, while the miscreants used BSA to find their targets, the abuse frequently (usually? I haven't done a statistical analysis of the cases) occurred outside BSA-sanctioned activities

Well, a statistical analysis of where the assaults occurred is an essential element of your argument.