SiouxRanger

Just increase the level of "amenities" ordeal candidates can take to reduce the adverse effect of weather elements.  An 8' x 10 ' piece of plastic tarp should do the job. And 4-6 lengths of para-cord to pitch it.

On 1/11/2023 at 11:29 PM, HashTagScouts said:

The arguments for the overnight are it is the entire purpose of the Ordeal: a night away to reflect on what challenges you are asked to place upon yourself, and whether you are worthy for the honor.

That is the CORE of it, and, for me, changed my life.

So, just what are folks consider things to be "cultural appropriation?"

And just what are the or harmful or damaging effects of that "cultural appropriation?"

Thanks.

On 12/29/2022 at 3:15 PM, HashTagScouts said:

Sad day for sure. Expected announcements tonight that regalia of any kind will no longer be permissible. Also that the 24 month window to complete Ordeal from election date will be permanent. A lot of us are questioning exactly what it is we are trying to keep alive at this point. I'm interested to see if they make any comment on the proposed idea of eliminating the Ordeal overnight - that's pretty much the deal breaker for me.

I've never been too involved with the OA, though an Ordeal member. My Troop was small, there were few of us in the OA, and fewer yet were interested in attending OA activities.  Somehow, time just did not allow. My huge involvement in Scouting otherwise just cast OA to the shadows.  That being said, I do understand that the OA is a huge factor spurring the involvement in Scouting for many who pass from youth to adults.

So that I can understand you better, with respect to your post, from whom were you expecting announcements regarding regalia?

The 24 month window, is that more or less than previously, and does extending or shortening it have some effect on the OA, and what effect?

The Ordeal Overnight-what are the arguments for and against eliminating it?  (I did the overnight, and thought it was great.  I bought into the whole Ordeal Weekend and live it to this day.)

Thanks.

17 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Just make sure you remember my correct pronouns when we get lost together.

Your Majesty / His Majesty

"Get lost together?"

Hopefully, you'll have a sticky tag with all the pronouns you prefer for your body bag.

And so, at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, a cocky boatman asked me what I'd do if I were lost in the Grand Canyon?

"I'd set a huge fire. It would be seen. Rescue folks would arrive."

"You can't do that.  This this is the GRAND CANYON!"

And I love the Robert Frost quote. Thanks so much.

At the rate things are trending, we'll have:

Citizenship in the Solar System

Citizenship in the Galaxy

Citizenship in the Universe

Well, probably not in the Universe until ZIP codes are assigned.

I just have to agree with sentiments that Merit Badges are more and more academic.  Less and less experience.

Me, just a nobody, I can build a fire in a pouring rain. Period. And yeah, in a torrential rain.  I am a master at it.  OK, not a master, GENIUS.  I am really good at building fires.  Get lost in the Wilderness, get lost with me, if you are so lucky.  (And my 2 degrees from a land grant university will not save my life.) What will save my life (and yours) is what I learned in Scouting.

And that is how it is.

Experience. 

I just find this thread so sad.

Us unpaid volunteers are treated so poorly.

At least is my standard.

And it is a cruel standard.

But is how it has to be.

Most of us folks have not had any training on such conflict situations.

So, we are all left to invent a response.

(And do these issues not commonly arise and no protocol to deal with them?)

"And why would that be?"  --Downtown Abbey's Carson.

Be Prepared.
 

"Be Prepared" = If you are EVER caught off-guard, it is your fault. Period.

(You have to see NOW, Tomorrow, the day after, next week, next month…Forever.)

That is the standard of "Be Prepared."

A legal analogy, for what it is worth, in a lawsuit, once a given judge has made a substantive ruling in the case, all the parties are stuck with that judge, unless later removed "for cause." The rule prevents "forum shopping," that is, skipping from judge to judge until you get one who issues a more favorable ruling.

You became the judge on this scout's case, having made a "ruling" on the merits of his advancement,

And it is dishonest of the Scout to approach another adult leader after having discussed matters with you and you having established the course forward for his advancement.

I'd discuss it with the other adult leader to determine whether the scout explained your comments and requirements to the other adult leader, or simply made no mention of the scout's conference with you. If the adult leader was made aware of the scout's conference with you and your requirements, how did that other adult leader deal with them (if at all)? Did the adult leader undermine your position by giving the scout a "pass?"

Perhaps the other adult was "duped" by the scout.  Hmmmm. Trustworthy.

In my troop, there is a sheet where notes of conferences with scouts are recorded and those notes are available for the adults conducting the next conference.  If such was available regarding this scout did the other adult volunteer ignore it? Where is the other adult's notes?  Those notes should address your notes/concerns.

No adult volunteer should take it upon themselves to countermand the work of another volunteer with respect to the advancement of a scout.

A scout rewarded for this behavior, if he did not fully inform the other adult, will learn little from the program or lessons of negative value.

Other than the damage done to a scout who games the system, self-inflicted, I am not too concerned about it, as the scout has deluded and damaged him/her self. If the scout is counseled and advised of his/her shortcomings and does not acknowledge the problem, little more can be done, realistically.

Some youth and adults will not embrace the principles of Scouting regardless of discussion, opportunities, counseling, etc.  And so be it. The "lead a horse to water" issue.

Nearly 50 years ago, a box of Scout Mirrors would arrive at Philmont for the Ranger Staff (at least).  On the back of each was the Dale Wimbrow poem, "The Man In The Glass." (Sometimes called "The Man In The Mirror." or, "The Guy In The Glass." )

I still have mine. (Maybe several.)

I think that they were sent by a professional scouter out of Milwaukee. (And if anyone has a name, I'd be appreciative.)

So, the text of the poem is (and, I've corrected spelling, and changed the vernacular-sorry, had to do; and, well, changed guy and fella.):

The Guy in the Glass

When you get what you want in your struggle for self,
And the world makes you King for a day,
Then go to the mirror and look at yourself,
And see what that man has to say.

For it isn’t your Father, or Mother, or Wife,
Who judgment upon you must pass.
The man whose verdict counts most in your life
Is the man staring back from the glass.

He’s the man to please, never mind all the rest,
For he’s with you clear up to the end,
And you’ve passed your most dangerous, difficult test
If the man in the glass is your friend.

You may be like Jack Horner and “chisel” a plum,
And think you’re a wonderful guy,
But the man in the glass says you’re only a bum
If you can’t look him straight in the eye.

You can fool the whole world down the pathway of years,
And get pats on the back as you pass,
But your final reward will be heartaches and tears
If you’ve cheated the man in the glass.

So, sadly, the scout who cheats the system will probably not know the consequences of their action until mid-life.

6 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I try to get the idea across to Scouts that there is a difference in a "Leader" and a "Boss".

Being from a very small organization and even at that, "leader" is better that "Boss." Long ago, I learned that lesson-as an SPL I think.

Even just this day is the lesson's principle brought home to me, awaiting documents I requested and was told that they would be emailed to me several days ago, which never arrived, in following up on my request for those documents…

I sent an email in which I could have said:

"You told me you that would forward those documents to me and they have not arrived…so where have things fallen down?" (Accusatory and puts the recipient on the defensive

Instead I called, and said,

"You were going to 'look into' getting me some documents…"

Both present the same message but in a manner that is a non-threatening to the person responsible.  And the sought documents arrived.

The lesson is, Threaten and folks will "clam-down" and resist; Commiserate with their work-load and they will attend to the issue.

And such is "Leadership" in my world.

6 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

I really think it's comical when someone talks about firing a Scouter.

I've seen it done multiple times.

And put on the IVF. Multiple times.

Quality people.

Kind.

I would not be so disheartened about things but for my 24 years of observing my Council, working at multiple levels in the Council to help out, pack and troop, district, camp, and Council levels, and seeing the bad management, neglect, misallocation of resources, failure of follow-through…. And my scouting active friends share my opinions.

And the volunteers' experience in other councils posted on this forum, sadly, mirrors my own. 

There is a curious thing about human nature.  Those who have come to a point where their future view turns toward the negative outlook earlier, and those who fully well understand things are bad, but continue to soldier-on, hoping-against-hope that things will turn around.  Maybe they do, mostly they don't.

Those that turn early are labeled "pessimists" and those that hold on are labeled, well, dreamers, ignorant, or prophets, depending on how things turn out.

I have observed that those whose view turns negative a bit earlier, have generally been paying more attention and tracking more closely than those late to the party. Both hope for success, but one group is more realistic in their assessment.

I am not optimistic that the course of National will change. What will do it? Historically, National has shown little self-insight. Bankruptcy does not seem to have the power to remove senior National leadership to institute a change of course.  A volunteer movement would need to be led by very senior and influential volunteers, but good luck persuading them to take up a position against the sacred cow of the BSA. The only other mechanism is that the BSA fades in membership and into obscurity. That seems to be the current course.  Maybe, National can perpetuate its current model, but if so, all the short-comings of program delivery mentioned on this forum will continue.

I get flashy emails from National touting all sorts of things, but none of which address the fundamental problems raised by knowledgeable long-term volunteers. If National does not listen to the loyal and experienced among its adherents, to whom is it listening?

The program could be so much more than it is (now).

 "For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: 'It might have been! "

--John Greenleaf Whittier

It seems pretty clear, in the deafening lull of the Bankruptcy, that National's grip on governance will remain, though on a dramatically lessened organization both in finances and membership. The BSA model appears to be on track to continue, largely as before.  One would think that many Council mergers are on the horizon, with the concomitant reduction of senior Council staff.

But will any of the fundamental issues of the program be addressed-all so often mentioned in this forum?  Program neglected by professional staff, struggling units, finances committed to salaries and not program and camps, just so many things which deny to youth the level of program that parents and volunteers expect?

On 11/9/2022 at 8:18 AM, gpurlee said:

Another thing that stood out was the Boy Scouts was one of the very few human service organizations that required that the local CEO (Scout Executive) be selected from a national pool of pre-approved candidates (professional Scouters) rather than the best possible candidate.

Any why would that be?

It is the CRUX of the problem.

EVERY SE is beholden to National for their job, first off, and for hoped-for promotions.  Their current huge salaries are a reward for prior loyalty, and the prospect of promotions for future loyalty to National.

In the Bankruptcy, National made the case that the Councils were "independent" of National, but I don't believe that.

YET, those "independent"  Councils, 100% of them, fell in line, trashed their camps and finances to bail out National. And paid what National decreed. (And I'd note, that those Councils are allegedly governed by Executive Committees and Executive Boards, theoretically voting on such drastic measures.  Yet not one rogue Council arose.  When was the last time anyone saw unanimity anywhere? Especially, in an environment of 200+ allegedly independent Councils each governed by a board of 30 to 60 folks? 

Our SE is not from our area.  Neither were the last 6 before the current SE. None of them knew anything of the volunteers, camps, businesses, community leaders, yet were expected to interface effectively with them.  It does not work.

Of the last 24 years here, we have had about 7 years of effective SE leadership.  The rest was ruinous.

On 11/7/2022 at 10:17 PM, Jameson76 said:

SE pay is not in fact a misprint

Must be a misprint.  I looked carefully…where is the factor"

"times 10 to the 12th?"

47 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

it just wasn’t talked about?

Correct.

If you were a CPA or an Attorney on the Board, not so motivated to risk your career or social position by assaulting the BSA monolith by referring to the tax return, you said nothing.

AND, again, what would you care?  The "anointed" SE with his (and females too, however) high salary had to raise the funds to pay it.  And if he failed, "no skin off your nose."

But here is the "RUB."

And it is significant.

Salaries get paid FIRST. (And of those salaries, I suspect that the SE's salary gets primacy-his/her salary gets paid first, in full, before any other in the event of a shortfall. I may be wrong, and so be it, but if others know more, please post.

The upshot of all of this is that Program is funded by the dregs.

"After the sharks have fed, PROGAM gets the dregs."

Now, that is a problem for me.

BSA is touted to be "Volunteer Driven," yet at the end of the day, that program is only accorded the dregs after the professionals have saited themselves on the huge profits of the program.

And, yet, Detractors say, "Be Away, you naysayer SiouxRanger be, dare you say BSA has cut corners…"

Well, my council purchases event patches at $.79 apiece, at whatever quantity. 

So, 100 patches cost $79.

Council budget, $3 million…

And still, not enough patches were ordered.

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

Compensation for executives should have components

I agree entirely.

My experience is that the ideal of "should have" has been replaced by "this is what we do…"

Meaning that the "fix is in…"

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Oh, how cute. Thinking that executives of organizations under collapse would get reduced pay.

Sorry (and I note that my membership here only allows for three apologies a month so just one left for all the rest of you "pilers-on").

In my council, SE salaries seem to be a topic "off the books." For decades.

My current working theory is that no one wants to admit just how much the SE makes, as parents, most of whom make MUCH LESS will revolt. Especially given how much fees have increased.

And though Scouting is far from the most expensive extracurricular activity a child can engage in, its expense grows as a parent's scout need a backpack, hiking boots., backpacking tent, etc.

Sorry that my last series of posts are a bit scattered, but these are my impressions over the last 26± years. (I've tried not to make argument, just impressions.)

I'd note from all my readings of posts hereon, the practices of other councils and experiences of other scouters like me, vary widely. 

So, I truly solicit comments to my posts. Without shared knowledge Scouting will not return to the volunteers.

35 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

TL;DR: 75k is too low to attract competent executives, skilled/talented people have bills to pay too and don't work for cheap. At least in my local area our SE seems to be paid relatively sanely to their non profit peers. 

This is perhaps only apocryphal, but back in 1998 or so, I heard that the top position at the Salvation Army, nationally, and his executive assistant, were paid $89,000 between them.  Perhaps someone has knowledge of that.  At that time, my recollection is that Jere Ratcliffe, Chief Scout Executive was paid $363,000 (not sure if benefits were included in that).

I am just left with the impression that top BSA executives are highly paid for not for profits, and if folks have evidence that this is not the case, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks.

44 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I’m not clear what you are getting at.

Sorry-mea culpa.

My perception is that National largely dictates SE salaries, and the Executive Committee (the small subcommittee of the Executive Board, and perhaps even only the Council President have any say in the matter, our perhaps even only knowledge, the salary having been set as a fait accompli.  And even if they do, why would they exercise any control?  The Council President, or Executive Committee are not paying the SE's salary.  And, besides, even if a high salary, the person getting paid that high salary has to raise the funds to do it.  "What Me Worry?" -Alfred E. Neuman.

I have served on my council's executive board for years, and the issue of salaries for the SE or anyone on staff was never raised.

So, we know staff are being paid, but who sets the salaries? Particularly of the SE? (As they are so high.)

Some mechanism is in place to set them.  BSA is not the local ice cream shack, and therefore it is highly unlikely that the process is ad hoc, so there is likely a formal procedure.

And that is what I am looking to learn.

43 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

National has some pay scales for the various types of councils that local council executive boards approve.

That has been my impression.

Sends the message" "Be Loyal to management and you'll have a chance at the ginormous salaries we earn."

There are no external, market-based controls to my knowledge.

15 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

You do know they don’t set their own pay, right?

Precisely who does set a SE's salary and benefits, if you know. I would truly love to hear some insight into the process-who has influence and especially the forces that control/regulate those salaries.

Our last SE had a touch over $200,000 in salary and $100,000 in benefits.  About 10% of the council budget.

Well a $125,000 pay cut is better than a 100% pay cut.

The SE in my council is grossly overpaid as "CEO" of a clearly failing organization.

I am convinced that there is little oversight over SE salaries. "Wink and a nod" metrics.

If our "Council Titanic" had a band, it would be playing with gusto (despite wet shins).