SiouxRanger

17 hours ago, PACAN said:

Gotta believe these mergers will be more shortly.   There are close to 15% of all councils with less than 1000 youth.

So, what is a council's budget that has 1,000 scouts?

At $1 million, that's $1,000 per scout for a year's program.  Hmm.

Even at a council budget level of $500,000, that is $500 per scout.  If every scout attended 2 camporees at $25 each, and summer camp at $350, total council revenue from those sources is only $400,000, falling $100,000 short of breakeven.

A Fortune 100 company I noted the other day had revenue of a little over $500,000 PER EMPLOYEE, and over 100,000 employees.

So, a 1,000 scout council has perhaps 6 to 8 employees, and a revenue stream per employee of $62,500 to $83,000.

Every year starts off in a hole. The shortfall was made up "by the kindness of strangers," in the words of Admiral McRaven, but that model seems to have run its course.  FOS seems to be kaput, replaced by an annual membership fee.  But, as grandparents, extended family, and businesses are not solicited for FOS like in years past, at least in my council, it shifts the cost to participants.  Golf outings and distinguished citizen dinners seem to be very successful, again, in my council.  But, those events were formerly frosting on the cake of fundraising, and now are a primary vehicle.

The 1,000 scout council would need to increase its membership to 1,250 to break even-a 25% increase in membership. That is asking a lot, too.

It just seems that the odds are strongly cut against this model being sustainable. 

Council mergers, as cost-cutting vehicles, mean that many senior staff will lose their jobs.

National, despite its best efforts, has killed itself.

Kodak.

24 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

I recall some events, patches were only available to "early-bird registration". 

I know of many events where patches to cover budgeted attendance were not ordered, with attendance reaching twice budgeted attendance.

And so the "FAILURES TO DELIVER THE PROMISE," continue.

7 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

This happens at times at work where they change the name of tools etc

You obviously were not on the mailing list of the Bureau Of Pointless Name Changes. Had you been, all would be clear. Just contact Charlie…, no, Bill…-never mind, the name changes at random…

Junior Leader Training is now "NYLT," or some such?

Cub Outdoor Leader training is "Baloo," or some such?

The fundamental principle of communication is that if you are the communicator, it is your responsibility to get you message across to your audience.

If you can't do that, YOU have failed-not your audience.

So, what does "NYLT" mean to a cub or scout parent?

"Baloo?" That projects no meaning to me.  Yeah, and I could cave-in and learn "The Code" and look cool and knowledgeable by keeping up with the trend of meaningless name changes, but I refuse.

How long has Ford, been "Ford?"  Chevrolet, "Chevy?" And the Pope, the "Pope?"

Seems to me that BSA National has frittered its own branding by constantly changing the names of programs that need no name change. And why?

It confuses the scout veterans, and means nothing to new parents.

When Dodge decided to market its "tough" vehicles (maybe a decade ago?), it did not market them as "Millie's Tough Trucks."  But, "Dodge Ram." 

Perhaps the idea of "creating energy" by renaming an existing program? (Though no substantive changes are made?) "We've changed the name, big changes to come…" which never develop.

Something along the line of "We don't have a better idea, so we will just stomp harder to give the impression that we do."

And the lack of change, vision, has failed to produce results.

My council is down 60% in cubs and 35% in scouts. Pretty alarming.

So, we apparently have a system (and I may be incorrect in my understanding of the sequencing of events, dates, etc., so please correct me), where a volunteer's YPT (Youth Protection Training) Certificate expires 2 years to and after THE DATE of completing the YPT training. So, you complete your YPT on dd/mm/yyyy, and it expires 2 years later on dd/mm/yyy+2.

So, just doing the "date math," there are 365 or 366 days in the year and thereby 365 or 366 YPT Certificate expiration dates, depending on the date of completion of the YPT training. Well, how convenient?

Not only does this system maximize the number of YPT Certificate expiration dates, but maximizes the number of volunteer YPT Certificates expiring DURING the Volunteer's term of service for the unit they are registered for. And how are those expirations to be handled???

Now, I come from a council that recharters all of its units on 12-31-YYYY.  I do not know whether other councils are the same, but my argument can be adjusted accordingly.

So, how about a YPT Certificate rule that provides, that if you take YPT Training Sept through Dec, you are good for 2 years PLUS, that is, through the second recharter of your unit. (Again, assuming a 12-31-YYYY recharter date.) No volunteer will have their YPT Certificate expire DURING their term of service with their unit.  (And Councils that recharter on other month ends, can adjust accordingly.)

6 hours ago, jcousino said:

helps when you come to me asking for money if i have talked with you at events. 

I know many folks who have turned to making their contributions to the Movement by making gifts in kind, instead of cash, and one person who changed their entire estate plan to the tune of about a million, and another of $750,000.

Councils do not see the folks whose contributions are changed from Boy Scouts to other charities.  The councils never knew of the potential bequests, and never hear that the BSA has been dropped as a beneficiary.

Immeasurable Phantom Losses.

5 hours ago, jcousino said:

but once if there is a problem its going to be in their laps

Nice sentiment, but when was the last district or council event that a professional was the "Face Of The Event?"

In my experience, never.  (My impression is "Let the volunteers take the heat.")

Volunteers names are slathered all over the lead-up flyers, web pages, Roundtable announcements…everywhere.  A professional may be listed but as an advisor, but their role is limited by design, in my opinion. ("Hey, I'm not in charge, call the lead volunteer.") Plausible Deniability?

And what does it mean that it will "be in their laps?"

The event is over.  The professionals were likely not at the event, or so far in the background as to be barely visible. Lightning rods, they aren't.

The ugly, whatever it was, has happened. And can no longer be "fixed."  It is over and whatever effect or impression it had is limited to those who experienced it (small, typically), and will fade quickly.  If it did not generate police reports (something criminal) and a follow-up investigation, even earnest volunteer/parent inquiries of the lead volunteers and professionals will wither through neglect. The volunteers are not trained to deal with such issues, nor feel authorized to take any action. The professionals won't advance their careers by bringing ugly things to the attention of their Scout Executive.

So, I just don't see any significant repercussions to professionals. "Yeah, we were surprised too.  Had we known, we would not have chosen XXX to run this event."

On 10/30/2022 at 8:48 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

And to make matter worse, found out supplies that were requested were never ordered. So the event chair was running around Thursday and Friday, paying out of pocket for items. Happened to me once back in the day.

I think that was an episode on "As The Stomach Turns."

Sorry to hear that it has been syndicated and now in reruns.

Experienced it once myself to embarrassing effect. (Breakfast for 20 purchased when 160 attended. Professional solution was to double the lunch food. Lovely. We should adopt a guiding principle, like, "Be Prepared," or some such.)

Know many others who paid for many things, budget approved things, who weren't reimbursed by the council.

14 minutes ago, jscouter1 said:

Is there any truth to this?

Yes sir.

4 years on Philmont staff, though in the 1970's,  A long time ago, but I do not think that the model has changed.

If you demonstrate the maturity and skills needed, and are of the right age, you may be asked to join the Philmont staff.

On 10/12/2022 at 5:10 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

In practice, I have only seen CE's take this action (of course, not knowing what discussions were had with CP).

It stands to reason if a CP and CE are tight, then the CP could get someone tossed.

I have seen the Council President sign off on removing volunteers.  Scout Executive agreement was presumed, but the volunteer Council President signed the letters and took the heat.  The checks for the refund of the volunteers' chartering fees was signed by a subordinate professional.

Ultimately cost both of them, the Council President and the Scout Executive, their jobs and reputations.

At the end of the day, Council operations are governed by the rules of M.A.S.H.'s "Double Cranko."

"Rules? There are no rules."  --Hawkeye

10 hours ago, dk516 said:

CBC

Criminal Background Check

2 hours ago, Christi13 said:

There has been one time where I voiced a question and was informed by the Council President that I was stepping outside of my perview and if I did it again that I would be removed from my positions. 

The conundrum is how does one tell what is inside and outside one's purview, the consequences of getting it wrong being so dire?

Catch 22.

55 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

The advice was more to obtain a warning for the OP'er if they don't have a good sense of the culture in their council before starting to ask these questions.  Hopefully, your District guys (talk to volunteers first) have been around a while, and can give you a good sense of how the council operates and treats them.  Their input and experiences will be a good indicator... concur that they won't necessarily be close to council ops, but the Chair or Commissioner may wear other hats in the council that do give them better insight.

I agree. Good advice.

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

4.  Can you request the minutes?  Sure, but the answer may be No.  Start with your District Key 3. (I recommend your District Commissioner, then District Chair, then DE.  They will help you "take the temperature" of the council and see if your inquiries will be welcomed or viewed with disdain.  Start treading carefully...

I personally would not start at the District level as the volunteers at the District level have little connection with Council level matters as part of their official duties as District officers.  The DE might be able to obtain a copy for you, but most DE's I've dealt with are not interested in any task that puts them on the radar of senior professionals that might reflect poorly on their jobs. And, such a request puts junior staff in a difficult position.

"Disdain."  I have heard directly from a second in command professional who asked for a head count at cub day camps and was met with the question, "Who wants to know, and for what purpose?"

Smells like "transparency" to me.

On the other hand, you may be able to find a volunteer so positioned that they have access to or possession of some or all of the records you seek.  None of those records were ever given to me as an Executive Board member "n confidence."

In my state, not-for-profit corporations have a statutory duty to make records available to certain individuals.  Maybe so in your state.  Invoking a state law to examine council records will almost certainly trigger a response.

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

These meetings should be on your council calendar.

In my council neither Executive Board, nor Executive Committee meetings are shown for at least a year out. Strange. Though, only one district has any events scheduled, but only as placeholders, that is, there is no description of what is to happen at that time. Nothing scheduled for the other districts. Sloppy and lax.

Again the questions were:

(Speaking regarding the practices of my council.)

Who is allowed to attend the Executive Board meetings for a council? 

Typically, only the members of the Executive Board, Scout Executive, other senior professional staff as directed by the SE, invited guests, and administrative professional staff.

Can I as an Assistant Scoutmaster, OA Chapter Advisor,  District Committee member, and Unit Commissioner sit in and listen to an Executive Board meeting? Yes or No? 

Typically, No, though you could ask.  Try the Board President, or Scout Executive. 

Note, however, that both are aware of "program-focused activists" who may be looking for a basis to disrupt Executive Board functions. Professional-volunteer relations have had a rocky relationship from time-to-time in various councils.

 Would I be able to look at past meeting minutes? Yes or N 

Typically, No, though you could ask.  Try the Board President, or Scout Executive.

As a practical matter, meeting minutes can range from nearly nonexistent to highly detailed, depending on the council and who is taking the minutes.  I have seen significant financial transactions in council financial statements that were never mentioned in the minutes.

Note, that councils have both an Executive Board (the larger body) and an Executive Committee of the Executive Board (the smaller body) comprised of the officers of the Executive Board, such as Vice President of Facilities, VP of Marketing, VP of Fundraising/Development, etc.  So, there may be TWO sets of minutes in existence.  Further, I have seen council By-Laws which permit the Executive Committee to make all decisions the Executive Board  could make, EXCEPT a decision which countermands an Executive Board action. therefore, the Executive Committee could take a significant action that the Executive Board learns of only after-the-fact, if at all.  Executive Committee minutes may well contain reference to more significant council matters than Executive Board minutes.

In my council, at least in the past, Executive Board meetings are typically a dinner event and only held quarterly.  Executive Committee meetings are meetings and typically held monthly.  By that alone, one can see where the power lies.

My impression is that Scout Executives' opinions are given great deference as they are the "professional."  (What does mere me know about running a scout council?)

 Would I be able to request looking at those minutes? Yes or No? 

Discussed above.

Is the Scouting program to be transparent in their work? Yes or No? 

Yes.  The volunteers think so.  It is their money, time and labor which largely delivers the program to youth. It is the volunteers' children, in the volunteers' hometowns...The typical Scout Executive is a visitor for a certain number of years as they work on their careers. 

No. The Scout Executives have a difficult position. (Again-my council experience.) They are well-paid and as money always seems to be short, surely want to make sure they are paid.  There has been a decades-long tension over the use of money for program and camp maintenance. I do not expect that ever to change. Any volunteer efforts to usurp the Scout Executive's prerogative to control the purse is almost certainly to be countered in some fashion. In the past, in my council, the financial statements were worthless from a volunteer perspective as far as planning an event, and evaluating the event. (Cub Day Camp, for example: Did we make money, lose money, should we change things next year, add more activities which cost more, or cut back? That information is not made available to volunteers.) Council financial statements do not appear to be in compliance with GAAP.  (Perhaps an accountant can chime in on this issue.) Why such obfuscation of the council's financial performance? 

I have never seen the Scout Executive's compensation indicated in any council document.  It is available in the Federal Form 990 Return of Organization Exempt from Income Tax.

Is the Council expected to be transparent in their work? Yes or No? 

See discussion above.

I'd note that the practices and attitudes in other councils may be different than what I have observed.

4 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

council is not helping.

They are "service centers," so I am told.

This weekend last, a cub from my pack presented the Council's popcorn wares.

I purchased a 6 ounce bag of kettle corn for $25.00 USD.

My first CAR (Granted, a Rambler American) was $400.  (But it did get me through college-the kettle corn barely made a snack).

For what anecdotal value it is worth (zero), our Pack has 3 Lions, 4 Tigers, 1 Wolf, 1 Bear, 0 Webelos 4 and 4 Webelos 5.

When I was the Pack committee chair person, we had about 65 registered and 45 attended each Pack meeting.  Pack registration is now lower than pre-covid.

This is the only Pack that feeds our Troop, so maybe 4 crossovers into a Troop of 16 registered and 12 to 14 active.  We usually get half to 2/3rds to cross over, and half of those stay one year.  We have seen worse, but we have seen much better.

And so it goes.

Just now, SiouxRanger said:

My understanding is that Executive Board Meetings and Executive Committee Meetings are generally limited to Board and Committee Members.

In my Council, Executive Board Meetings are generally dinner events.

25+ years ago, Executive Board Meetings in my Council were held monthly, THEN meetings were reduced to quarterly by a change in the Council By-Laws which appeared to be generated by National.  My Council's Executive Board was about 50 to 60.

Why changed, I do not know, BUT, the control of the Council shifted to the Executive Committee, a group of about 6 or 8 who met monthly.  The ONLY limitation on the power and authority of the Executive Committee was that it could not take any action contrary to an Executive Board action.

Of course, the Executive Committee could take any action not already prohibited by the Executive Board, but how is the Executive Board to know what limitations to place on Executive Committee action?  One has to predict what actions the Executive Committee MIGHT take in the future.  It is fairly easy to anticipate adverse future actions in Chess, football, etc., as those games have lots of rules, but how does one anticipate an Executive Board voting to sell a camp, buy a camp, fire the Ranger or Council Executive, sell the Scout Office or buy another...the list is infinite.  I have seen this play out.

Presumably, the Executive Board could act to countermand an Executive Committee action after the fact, but the politics of doing that are huge.

"Hello, you know that the Executive Committee did "X," you know they were selected for that committee because THEY ARE MUCH MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT SCOUTING THAN YOU, (just who do you think you are to question the Imperial Select?  Just make your corporate contribution and shut up) so do you want to risk your job to raise a stink to set this right?"  ("And your "contribution

I DID. 

Most Executive Board Members are prominent members of the local community and not inclined to countermand those that even those powerful people see as more versed in the operations of the Council Board of which they consider themselves as ceremonial members, treated to a dinner 4 times a year for their annual contribution, perhaps paid by their employer which is prestige building.

I know these to be the dynamics of 25 years ago-and I invite those with more current information to chime-in.  It does not appear to me that anything has changed in my Council-but maybe elsewhere.

 

                          (Moderators-the extra space Delators-you know who you are.. are for EMPHASIS.)

 

The only council meeting I know of that MIGHT allow non-members is the Annual Council Meeting which the COR's (Chartered Organization Representatives) are allowed to attend and vote.  I have seen non-anyone, mere scouters attend those meetings.  That could vary widely from Council to Council.

But few of anyone not a member at some level show up.

And so the Council management and leadership is managed and controlled by about 8 people.  And it appears to me that ALL the volunteers defer to the Column Executive who is drawing a salary of $250,000 to $350,000.

Obscene.

On 9/21/2022 at 9:59 AM, Christi13 said:

Who is allowed to attend the Executive Board meetings for a council? Not needing to vote but to be able to watch the proceedings. Are Leaders able to request or look at past meeting minutes? How do we request looking at those minutes? Thanks 

My understanding is that Executive Board Meetings and Executive Committee Meetings are generally limited to Board and Committee Members.

In my Council, Executive Board Meetings are generally dinner events.

25+ years ago, Executive Board Meetings in my Council were held monthly, THEN meetings were reduced to quarterly by a change in the Council By-Laws which appeared to be generated by National.  My Council's Executive Board was about 50 to 60.

Why changed, I do not know, BUT, the control of the Council shifted to the Executive Committee, a group of about 6 or 8 who met monthly.  The ONLY limitation on the power and authority of the Executive Committee was that it could not take any action contrary to an Executive Board action.

Of course, the Executive Committee could take any action not already prohibited by the Executive Board, but how is the Executive Board to know what limitations to place on Executive Committee action?  One has to predict what actions the Executive Committee MIGHT take in the future.  It is fairly easy to anticipate adverse future actions in Chess, football, etc., as those games have lots of rules, but how does one anticipate an Executive Board voting to sell a camp, buy a camp, fire the Ranger or Council Executive, sell the Scout Office or buy another...the list is infinite.  I have seen this play out.

Presumably, the Executive Board could act to countermand an Executive Committee action after the fact, but the politics of doing that are huge.

"Hello, you know that the Executive Committee did "X," you know they were selected for that committee because THEY ARE MUCH MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT SCOUTING THAN YOU, (just who do you think you are to question the Imperial Select?  Just make your corporate contribution and shut up) so do you want to risk your job to raise a stink to set this right?"  ("And your "contribution

I DID. 

Most Executive Board Members are prominent members of the local community and not inclined to countermand those that even those powerful people see as more versed in the operations of the Council Board of which they consider themselves as ceremonial members, treated to a dinner 4 times a year for their annual contribution, perhaps paid by their employer which is prestige building.

I know these to be the dynamics of 25 years ago-and I invite those with more current information to chime-in.  It does not appear to me that anything has changed in my Council-but maybe elsewhere.

                          (Moderators-the extra space Delators-you know who you are.. are for EMPHASIS.)

The only council meeting I know of that MIGHT allow non-members is the Annual Council Meeting which the COR's (Chartered Organization Representatives) are allowed to attend and vote.  I have seen non-anyone, mere scouters attend those meetings.  That could vary widely from Council to Council.

But few of anyone not a member at some level show up.

Well, get the "math" of a "no. 10 can" (quantity), and a "no. 101 can" into your youth head. Maybe a no. 101 can is larger in volume than a no. 10. can-101 is larger than 10.  Still not sure I have it right. (101 Is greater than 1, yet the 101 can is smaller...)

Well, I have made many failures, but I learned from them, and it made me a better person.

Scouting let me fail, yet learn from my failures, in Scouting one can fail without horrific consequences. Just with some measure of youthful embarrassment.

Failure is a bit of a "comeuppance" giving notice to those who are paying attention, that one need to take serious attention. 

Learning by experience, the Scouting method, is something of an iterative process.  Advance a few steps, get kicked back a few, resolve to move forward, and a gain a few steps, etc.

I have long believed that Scouting was in the "entertainment" business.

Firebuilding (probably no. 1), knives, campfires, swimming, canoeing, camping (and the sheltered independence of being away from home), having fun learning new skills...

"You can earn rank, patches...advance, build self-esteem...by earning rank..."

And along with the entertainment, us adults have presented it all in the framework structured to foster a sense of leadership, character building, responsibility.

These things are not learned by a scout as "THIS is a leadership learning moment-Ah Ha."

They are learned, by some scouts (who are paying attention), individually, "We need to eat at 6 pm to make the campfire by 8, and so, considering clean-up time, the fire needs to be started at 5:30. Where is everybody? I need to get them on-board."

Some scouts get it and other not quite just yet, or never.

Us adult leaders may never see that process work out in the mind of a scout who is responding to the situation in a leadership role, and the Scout will not likely understand it either, yet, the Scout acts in a leadership role and gets the job done.

I failed many times as a senior scout, but I never learned from successes.  Only failure teaches if one can bear the hurt to learn from it. And one must "bear up" to grow.

These things are subtle.  

15 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Yes, it is... a must, and should be a showstopper.  

My recollection is that the Scoutmaster's signature represents the SM's acknowledgment that the Scout is mature enough(and has the required rank)  to work the selected merit badge.

5 hours ago, Muttsy said:

So where is the late great his highness Doug Kennedy or the TCC? Hunkering down in their usual bunkers?

The TCC, among all the players in this drama, having NO apparent financial interest, should be last on the list for opprobrium.