SiouxRanger

On 1/21/2024 at 1:07 PM, Ojoman said:

The SE is an employee of the council. The COR is a voting member of the council and can and should attend the annual business meeting and can participate in board meetings.

The SE is a paid employee. Yep. And paid well.  The COR's care not a whit. COR's are entitled to attend the Council ANNUAL meeting, but not the regular board meetings, which years ago, were held monthly, but now, apparently now only held quarterly (all to the dimunituon of the COR's level of control.

Attacks on the SE, like getting the SE fired, well, that triggers HUGE pushback. Area and Region level folks rise up. SE's are paid huge amounts. And those at Area and Region levels,. who are paid even more, stand up and protect.

I know these things.

And so, to amalgamate a voting winning body of COR's to unseat a SE? Good luck .(You will be hated,…)

Yet,

I have done these things.

 And, the price of doing so, is dear.

And I am-

Cincinnatus

What does the community know of the Philmont Ranger Marathon, Dan Beard Camp to Kit Carson Museum at Rayado (earlier, 1970's), (well, and shorter routes} to Abreu or Kit Carson Meadows.

I think that there is some reference in the congressional charter prohibiting military marching, or some such.

20 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Lost to many is the societal respect of Scouting, especially in BSA in the first half century or so.  Chivalry and simple respect somehow fell by the wayside for some reason in many places, and the foolish "insult" of calling someone "such a Boy Scout" gained traction for some reason over time, and the concepts that are the foundation of Scouting fell into limbo of some type.  Yet who, with any basic concern for others and our society could seriously say the tenets of Scouting are somehow bad?  If just the Oath and Law were seen as important in broader society, we would have far fewer issues.  JMHO of course, and I will be 80 soon.  

Absolutely. I'm just a kid at 70, but you are absolutely right. The principles of Scouting have been no hindrance but only benefit in my life.

On 1/6/2024 at 2:04 AM, SiouxRanger said:

Maybe just a moment to take a break in the discussion and upvote or downvote @RememberSchiff for his diligent and faithful monitoring of this site, and all the delightful and informative Scouting news and insights he brings to us. "Diligent" is how I think of his effort.

(AND, moderators, all upvotes should be attributed to @RememberSchiffand downvotes attributed to me.)

Thanks all.

All the upvotes should be attributed to @RememberShiff.  For me, at least, and from your upvotes, I recognize that he/she? has clearly spent many hours "behind the scenes" ferreting out really interesting and useful (not to mention uplifting insights in times not always so uplifting), all to my (and perhaps your) enlightenment of really neat things carrying the movement forward. Maybe even arcane.  Where does @RememberSchifffind this stuff?

A magician never reveals his/her secrets.

On 1/4/2024 at 9:43 PM, skeptic said:

As long as individuals or groups try to paint a picture of Child Sexual Abuse in the BSA that is not the truth, then these untruths will continue to be called out.

Absolutely true; and the premise plays both directions.  

I do not understand the concept that "the premise plays in both directions."

National lost the Oregon case.

Filed bankruptcy anticipating 8,000± claims.

>80,000+ claims were filed. (Now I don't for a moment believe that 80,000+ claims is anywhere close to an accurate measure of the actual claims as the bankruptcy claims process appears to me to horribly bungled.)

But, National believes 8,000+ and the bankruptcy proceeding is 80,000+.

So, nowhere do either of those figures reduce to zero.

That is, even National agrees that there are valid outstanding claims. That is not zero.

Thanks for the reference to "IF."

Some professional from Milwaukee, I believe, unknown by name to me, in the early 1970's would send a box of Scout Mirrors to Philmont to be distributed to the Philmont Rangers (at least, and maybe other groups and classes of staff-I was a Ranger) which had a copy of The Man In the Glass (now Mirror, apparently) on the back. A remarkable contribution and a treasured possession.

The Scout Motto: "Be Prepared."

What more concise summary of life can be made?

If you are "caught off-guard" you were not "Prepared." End of discussion. An "F."

Essentially, it is a zero defect standard. And that is a harsh standard. Most of the world does not attempt to meet that standard. Buy a car-99% work fine, 1% recalled. Not so, Be Prepared.  There are no recalls.

But, if one shoots for an "A," you might get an A, shoot for an A+ of A++ and an A will likely be.  Shoot for a B, expect a C and shoot to pass, a C, expect a D or F.

The result of failing to exert maximum effort is usually mediocre.

Against the Be Prepared's zero defect standard, one has to take measure of the typical human's failure to be perfect.

We all make mistakes. Large or small.  Serious or trivial.

Time passes, and one has to reconcile one's reaction to their mistakes.

Learning from one's mistakes is a huge step in maturing.

However, some never learn.

"Experience is a hard teacher, but a fool will learn from no other."

And, there is this other notion that one does not learn from successes.

"Gee, that went great, I''ll put that in my pocket." (Nothing learned.)

But when things went poorly. Us humans tend to study those. "Why did that go wrong?" "What do I need to change?" (in modern parlance, "tweak.") And we learn, tweak the plan, and get better results the next time around.

These lessons need to passed on to scouts, so they feel comfortable with their shortcomings and learn that all is not lost, that every life has another inning to improve.

There is some merit to the sentiment that, “All’s well that ends well.”

A scout whose effort on a particular requirement was not as hearty as they could have done or should have done, and that they have recognized their shortcoming, and used that as a springboard to improve or perfect their future efforts, toward their future scout advancement or later as an adult scout mentor…

Well, the Scouting program thereby produced a responsible adult.

Meeting the program’s goal.

And, everyone follows a Scouting Trail personal to themselves. 

Unit leadership, summer camp staff, merit badge counselors, are all of variable quality, intensity, knowledge, interest, and incompetence, indifference…

Some youth tread a near perfect path (I’ve known many brilliant scouts), others struggle and falter but get there (I’ve known many of those also-I’m in that class).

Those who intentionally made a weak effort, and revel in having “gotten away with it,” well, the real world tends to let them know it in one fashion or another.

And then there are the early short-comers who flourished.

I class myself among them.

It all gets back to the poem, “The Man In The Mirror.”

25 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Not reasonable.

#1  When I need to advise someone to do something really hard, it's a direct discussion.  I don't write a memo to them advising them.  
#2  The IVF files are documentation WHY the person should not be registered; not a step by step process record of everything that happened.  

#3  The fact that so so so many of the files do have police records are strong evidence that the right thing did happen.  

*****
After I posted yesterday ... I another few files.  ... again alphabetical starting from Z. ... Just a few ... I found this one

1978-04-19 ...  File had court transcript ... Volunteer pleaded guilty.  Judge interviewed man's wife who said he was a good man.  Judge had letters from man's company that said he was well employed and a good employee.  Judge recognized man was financially supporting his young kids and wife.  Based on good character testimony, the man was sentenced to probation and suspension of a ten year jail term.  He did have to pay a $180 dollar court cost fine.  ... That was the society at this time.  

PLEASE POST COPIES OF LETTERS FROM THE BSA IV FILES DIRECTING ANYONE TO CONTACT LAW ENFORCEMENT.

Or admit you are just an apologist for a failed program that damaged children.

On 12/13/2023 at 7:34 AM, fred8033 said:

Then you  have not read many or your are being disingenuous.  The files contain many including police reports and court proceedings.  

I AM NEVER DISINGENOUS.

I am an Eagle and a Philmont Ranger. And those two status' are more important to me than any other accomplishments (but one which would identify me.). 

And in my world, my veracity is unquestioned. But you, and the forum here are at liberty to form their own opinions.

The IV files I have read, about 40 of 7,000 or so DO contain newspaper articles about perpetrators and police reports. And conviction reports.

BUT NOT A SINGLE LETTER FROM BSA NATIONAL OR LOCAL COUNCIL, not one, to any law enforcement agency reporting suspected abuse. Not one.

Nor a single letter from National BSA or a council to anyone advising them to contact local law enforcement.

(All which says, let's just ride low below the radar-it may all go away."}

And if you know of any…

POST THEM.

Perhaps you've read other IV files than I have.

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

That is an overly simplistic statement.  

About what?  Child Abuse in 1970s was about Battered Child Syndrome; CSA was not the focus until 1990s.  Teachers were looking for bruises and physical signs of abuse.  

To whom?  School administration is a government entity hired and paid for by the tax payer.  

Half the states.  

Not sure I understand the significance of "being a mandatory reporter."

I see Tom smack Bill with a baseball bat, I'd report it, even if not a "mandatory reporter."

I hear/see AAA abuse ccc, I'd report that too, mandatory reporter or not.

Are we standing on technicalities in the protection of children???

When in doubt, REPORT. Raise the alarm.  Raising a false alarm, you are "The Boy Who Cried Wolf."

Fail to raise the alarm, well, abuse.

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information).

But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did you hold in the hierarchy?  Were you even privy to this level of mess?

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information).

But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did you hold in the hierarchy?  Were you even privy to this level of mess?

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information).

But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did yen ou hold in the hierarchy?  Were you even privy to this level of mess?

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information).

But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did yen ou hold in the hierarchy?  Were you even privy to this level of mess?

20 hours ago, Ojoman said:

 A s i recall though the police were in the loop. The SE was supposed to immediately suspend the volunteer  and had to be notified. 

Haven' read any indication of law enforcement notification of abuse incidents by local councils or NATIONAL BSA in National's Illegible Volunteer files I've read.

Please post all such records from National's Ineligible Volunteer files of which you are aware.

Thanks so much.

On 12/9/2023 at 12:54 PM, SiouxRanger said:

Exactly.

Exhibit from a BSA IV file. Found in my random review of about 40 BSA IV files, and I think mentioned in a deposition somewhere that I read.

Released, I am given to understand, after the usual legal motions, court hearings, and a court order (Oregon case).

Not publicly available without the court's order; BSA contested the files' disclosure. (And I recall, perhaps only 7,000 files-not all of them…? Unlikely the non-disclosed are less egregious.)

Letter to a Council Executive from Paul Ernst, Director of BSA National of Registration.

"We (National BSA) have always asked that all the records in this type of situation be kept in the National Office…"

That is, send National "all that is in your council's file, retain nothing (a sad perversion of the principle of "Leave No (local) Trace.")

Further, unsaid, "Local councils cannot be trusted to keep these matters confidential so National wants ALL the records-the council retaining no copies-so if there is a leak at council level-National can plausibly deny claiming that the Leaker is misinformed, wrong, a disgruntled employee, nor a truth-teller,  recently terminated due to underperformance or insubordination."

As an aside, NONE of the BSA IV (Inelligible volunteers) files I reviewed (clearly a non-statistically valid sample) did I see any document wherein:

-the local council indicated it had advised law enforcement of the matter.

-the local council indicated it had advised the initial reporter of the incident, or anyone else for that matter, to report the incident, WITH THE NOTABLE EXCEPTION of two files where National advised that local "social services" be advised. But never law enforcement. And in one, when "local social services" "deferred" BSA closed its file.

-that National had contacted law enforcement about the incident.

-that National had advised that the council contact law enforcement.

-that National had advised the council to advise someone involved in the incident to contact law enforcement.

The upshot of this is, "Council, collect all the info, send it to National, THEN send your entire file to National, leaving no trace thereof in your local council files, refer to "social services (if the incident is on their radar), and close the file."

Transparency. Hmmm?

All key techniques of deferral and deflection.

"Well, if the initial reporter of the incident, family of the alleged abused, unit leadership don't report it to law enforcement, why should we, National BSA and the council report it to law enforcement???"

Because it happened on your watch. With children.

(And the National BSA staff and "big-wigs," they didn't have children?  And they let other children suffer the abuse?  It would be VERY INTERESTING to know how BSA National senior management protected THEIR children likely having knowledge of the abuse situation in Scouting.

Trustworthy. And when you lose the aura of trustworthiness? Loss of credibility.

So, in the BSA IV files there may be letters/documents wherein National BSA or a local council has referred an incident report to law enforcement.

PLEASE post them on this forum.

Moderators, perhaps a separate thread should be created for those posts, if any.  References to the relevant BSA IV file number and/or copies of the relevant letters should be posted. And, after some passage of time, if there are no such posts, it serves to support my impressions.

P-K4+, maybe P-K4++, Ojoman.

Q.E.D.

22 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I differ with you on this point. I think it was more intended to keep the BSA's own reputation safe. Why else would they have been secret files that BSA wouldn't share with other organizations and even deny the existence of? In front of a Congressional committee a BSA official said they had no CSA issues.

Exactly.

36 minutes ago, PACAN said:

The "funny" thing is that councils who added council fees to each scout (which was not allowed before but ignored) seemed to think this fee would be additive to FOS.    Another typical "no idea".   The parents saw right through this and the result is that the council fee is FOS and the FOS goals were never going to be met as the only ones who contributed FOS were the obligatory contributions from the Executive Boards who for the most part have no scouts in the program any longer.

 

 

FOS is defunct in my council. Haven't received a solicitation in at least 3 years.  It seems to rely on major fundraising events for funding.  And major donations, but I think those are few-and limited to capital improvements-and even at that I think that is nearly zero.

And who wants to pay for past abuse claims?

Major donors want to put their name on a building or trail…

And, even at that, my council sold off a piece of land named for the purchasers/donors to pay its portion of the bankruptcy settlement. (Get a good lawyer to restrict the use of the land donated.)

Our council has maybe half or 1/3rd the staff of 5 years ago.

"Thriving" is not a word heard here these days.

12 hours ago, Ojoman said:

Troops are probably more apt to 'create' their own culture and depart from BSA practices. Some troop leaders (like some sports coaches) are controlling or mired in out of date practices.

Do you have specifics for this? I'd really like to know what you think.

Specifically, regarding:

"departure from BSA practices"

and

"controlling of mired in out of date practices."

So vague I cannot determine what you are referring to.

Thanks.

On 12/6/2023 at 11:11 PM, Ojoman said:

My post on expectations of DE's seemed to draw a lot of interesting responses but program delivery and support is just as much a responsibility of the volunteers at the district level as they are of the DE. I would like to hear from volunteers at all levels as to how effective the district volunteers are and what needs to be done to make it even better. Most districts do suffer from a lack of manpower so that might be addressed too. Thanks

In 24 years as a troop leader, Committee Chairman, Treasurer, Eagle Scout Coach, having attended all but perhaps 6 troop meetings in that time, (and all but 6 campouts) I've seen a DE appear at our troop meeting maybe 3 times. Bearing nothing but a smile and kind words. Contributing nothing to troop improvement.

I have never looked to a DE to provide any help to our Troop.  They have nothing to offer. The Council office has nothing to offer either other than to take our money.

Unit Commissioners, well, they are as rare in their appearances. They have never offered nor contributed anything to our Troop.

It is no protection to the failure of council, district executives, National, to throw-off the duties onto district volunteers. Shame.

If there is a failure of National, Council, District, all lead by "commissioned professionals" it is to pass blame to unpaid volunteers.

My training as a soccer dad:  $0, and 0.00 hours.  My training as a basketball dad:  $0 and 0.00 hours.

I just have to pause and reflect over discussions of camping gear.

My camping/scouting experience goes back to 1967 or so.  And with 3 Eagle sons, and hundreds of campouts, as a scout, local council summer staff member, 4 years as a Philmont Ranger, and all of the campouts with my sons, less maybe 3, I own a small room in the basement FILLED with gear, some successful, some worthless, some purchased and yet unused because adding a few bucks to the order got me free shipping.

And, I have been through countless discussions with other scouters, and tested, tried equipment.  I own and have read all of Colin Fetcher's 4 books on camping and camping equipment.

And, I have a few pointers.

Every item you choose needs to serve as many uses as possible. And you have to think deeply on this.  It is not obvious or easy.  We all use plates. But a bowl can also hold food we'd normally expect to see served on a plate. But a bowl can also hold stew, soup, cobbler...hot chocolate... So a BOWL is more versatile than a plate.  So, get a bowl-you don't need a plate.  And a bowl with a handle, when your fingers are cold? Wearing heavy gloves? Get a bowl with a handle-easier to hold with gloves.  My titanium bowl with handle-are you kidding me?  I don't have one.  I take a 99 cent plastic handled bowl I bought at a hardware store.

Understand your need. Rain gear.  After all my time, I just don't have a good plan.  I have various rain coats.  Currently REi coats, but an ideal rain coat should cover to mid thigh.  So you can sit down on a log in a torrent, and have your Gluteus Maximus covered. Even better would be a raincoat that allowed you to cover your knees to mid calf when sitting.  And I know of NO company which makes such a garment.

Sleeping Bags.  I have owned 8 or so sleeping bags over 60 years. Read many articles on how synthetic sleeping bag fills are "better" than down-filled bags. Bought synthetic filled bags, but after disappointing results bought two down-filled bags.  So, I've owned both. Down-filled wins hands-down. They are not cheap.  900 fill bags are great.  Will never buy another synthetic filled bag.

Tents.  This is a bit complicated.  Some troops want to have identical tents for the entire troop to appear consistent. Like all wearing a consistent uniform.  I understand that.  My son's troop has declined to spend to buy troop tents because the tents don't hold up (zippers and waterproofing), so scouts bring their personal tents, and that seems to work out OK.

So, mention of Big Agnes tents. I have owned more than my share of tents.  Mostly Kelty, then a NorthFace Canyonlands, which I loved, (until...) and finally a Big Agnes Copper Spur 1L (I think.)

And, I have no idea who Big Agnes is, nor much about the company, but I spent a great deal of treasure on a one-person tent for my last trek to Philmont. Sight unseen-bought off the web at a good discount.

Best tent I have ever owned.  Precisely built. Precise.  Did I mention "Precisely crafted?" PERFECT.

Multitools/knives. Number one tool in the wilderness is a scissors.  Really? Yeah. Pliers is #2.  Stoves need repair. Pliers to do that. Leatherman has two small multi-tools that fill the bill.  I carry both.

Fire starting. Ferro rods and a serious sense of just what natural plants are flammable-critical. Research Mora Knives and Opinel Knives. 

And I will post no more on this topic.

On 11/20/2023 at 9:44 PM, RookieScouter said:

I get this is a scout ran program but can they really ban others from being at the meeting?

NO.  WRONG.  Totally wrong.

Violates YPT and a parent's common sense.

No one gets between me and my child. This is a "go-to-the-mat, or move on issue."

In over 20 years of intense volunteering at pack, troop, district and council, never, ever heard of such a position/policy.

Send a written notice/demand for intervention to the Council Exec., certified mail, return receipt requested. (And by regular mail also.)  Keep copies/postal receipts for your file.  Carbon copy your Institutional Head, and Chartered Organization Representative.  All the parents for that matter. And carbon copy to your attorney-note in your letter/notice/demand for intervention that the IH, COR, troop parents, and your attorney are receiving copies.

Do this even if you leave the Troop.  It is an ethical responsibility not to leave other children exposed to this SM.

Don't have an attorney, find a Scouting Friendly attorney who will agree to being a named as a carbon copy recipient. There are likely many such attorneys, attorneys being high achievers, many are Eagles.  PM me if you can' find one.

Maybe advise the SM that you are going to send such a notice.  Hand a copy to the SM. Smile. If he changes the policy, he needs to do so in writing, signed by him. If not, send the notice/demand for clarification anyway.  Then you will be on the record as having identified his abhorrent policy. And a potential abuser or abuser in the making.

Hasn't 120 years of silence taught us anything?

Aggressive? Well, yes.  Aggressive response needed? Yes.

Abusers favor shadows. Remoteness.  Out of sight.  And silence.  And complacent parents who ASSUME that scout leaders are "good people." And mostly they are. But this SM needs to be replaced. 

52 minutes ago, Ojoman said:

District professional staff do have to generate a part of that but there ought to be ample time spent on membership recruitment/retention, unit support and cultivation of district and council level volunteers

Well, there "ought to be ample time" but in my council, the DE's contribute virtually nothing to program.

Does National even have a training program for DE's focused on "program?"

A "perfect mentality/world view" is fine, but it is not reality. I have chaired district level events for over 20 years.  Never has a DE provided a whit of inspiration, insight, help. A total disappointment.

I have come to the belief that DE's are not trained in any aspects of program whatsoever, AND, I truly wish you could direct me to the materials that do train DE's on program.  Philmont has loads training programs. Are any directed to DE's and how to put on program?

There is not even any "program planning" available for volunteers. In over 20 years, one would think I would have heard of some. Hello.

Issues like, scheduling, program themes, staffing, required staff certifications, food budgeting and management, supplies, safety issues, contingencies and backup plans, and so many things.

And I had to INVENT plans to deal with all these things.

BE PREPARED.  The principle is a religion. (It is simple, well, to me:  Caught "off-guard?" it is your fault. No excuses. You should NEVER be caught off-guard.)

It is a zero-defect standard. Who abides by a zero-defect standard?  Physicians, lawyers, engineers (buildings & bridges should not collapse), and some others.

"Professional" staff was of no help whatsoever.

And, so why do we need professional staff? And at such expense. All for what?

31 minutes ago, Ojoman said:

Still, I felt that putting 'fake' membership on the books was and is rare.

I KNOW that it was commonplace in my council.

Presumably, you have a pension from National and your comments should be interpreted thus so.

And if no BSA pension, please so state.