johnsch322

5 minutes ago, skeptic said:

You can interpret anything as your own mind chooses.  Fred is right in that was common language in the forties and fifties still, and certainly in material written earlier than that.  Some people may also be drinking bitterroot tea perhaps.  Me thinks your dark glasses are perhaps a little too tinted towards the dark side.  

You are correct, the BSA used language in their own publications that put scout leaders as someone who could be trusted in everything, and little boy scouts should follow everything that that scout leader should say or do. So, when a scout leader was finished with his dirty little deed, he would say to the little boy scout tell no one not even your parents. The little boy scout would do exactly what he read in his handbook which once again was trust your scout leader because "he likes boys and wants them to become real men" Exactly an environment that a pedophile would thrive in.  And the BSA knew they had a problem with CSA, hid it from the general public and still published handbooks for scouters and their parents with the writing that @ThenNowhas quoted.

As a survivor I was taken to the dark side by a scout leader. Unfortunately, with the trauma that was caused I have had to revisit the dark side more often than I would like. 

54 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Sounds just like every Disney video from the 1950s talking about adults in town.  The trusty grocery.  The helpful police officer.  The guiding teacher.  And the ones we'd watch in elementary school with Mr. Science.  Everyone taught kids to revere adults.  The difference is BSA published a book with the words written down. 

Now, people hold it up as "evidence".  IMHO, that's sad. 

It's just how people talked back then when marketing.  

I was born in 54 and never heard those words in a Disney movie. Please enlighten me as to which one it was. I was never taught about a "trusty grocery" and was once at the age of 5 praised by a CHP officer for not getting into his car when he told me, my sister and a friend he would drive us home when we were walking down old 395 by March AFB. I am pretty sure Mr. Science only taught us science and said believe in the science.

Stranger Danger campaigns and warning started in the early 1960's when people started to get TV's and the news started reporting about horrific things that were happening to children even CSA. 

Maybe you have been drinking the BSA Kool Aid for a little too long.

56 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Here is a taste. Please forgive any wonky formatting on the cut and paste.

BSA has issued various publications available to scouts, parents, and the general public. The Boy Scout Handbook typically contains the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. It also contains a description of troop leaders. The Seventh Edition of the Handbook was copyrighted in 1965 and reprinted in 1967. It states: 

"First, there’s your Scoutmaster. What a wonderful man he is! He spends hours figuring out how to give you fun and adventure in your troop. He takes special training to learn exciting new things for you to do. He is present at every troop meeting and goes hiking and camping with the troop. He is the friend to whom you can always turn to for advice. He coaches the patrol leaders. Why does he do all this? Because he believes in Scouting, because he likes boys and wants to help them become real men." 

The Seventh Edition also directs scouts to obey their Scoutmasters. “A Scout is Obedient. He obeys his parents, Scoutmaster, patrol leader, and all other duly constituted authorities.” 

The Eighth Edition of the Handbook was copyrighted in 1972 and reprinted in 1973. The Eighth Edition states: 

“Over there watching things is your Scoutmaster. He’s a great guy. He gives hours of his  time to you and the troop. And do you know why? Mostly because he knows Scouting is important to his city and nation. Besides, he is interested in boys.” 

The Ninth Edition of the Handbook, copyrighted and printed in 1979, again states that the Scoutmaster “is the friend to whom you can always turn to for advice” and directs scouts to follow the rules of their troop. The Ninth Edition is dedicated to “the American Scoutmaster who makes scouting possible,” and directs scouts to be “loyal” and “true” to their Scout leaders. 

In 1970, BSA published the “Parent’s Book.” It states that “Scouts benefit immensely from companionship with [their Scoutmaster],” who is a “man of good character.”

The Parent’s Book also states that the Scoutmaster is “the kind of guy [scouts] would like to be,” and that the Scoutmaster has “the unique ability to get inside a boy and gain his confidence.” It states that the Scoutmaster has a “profound influence” on boys.

Finally, the Parents Book states that the Scoutmaster is a “mature adult of sound character,” and lists the “desirable qualities” for which a Scoutmaster is selected. 

After reading all of this I can only imagine how scoutmasters etc. could feel as if they were supreme beings. It is so cult like. I bet that old time scouters in their 70's and 80's also feel the same way, that only they know what was right or wrong after being indoctrinated with words such these.

28 minutes ago, skeptic said:

While your perspective has merit, again it was a different society.  I do though wonder how you did not see that similar respect and as you call it, bowing almost to the SM etc. in other youth leaders.  We were expected to do what those adults said, often with little expectation other than jump and follow.  Also, families were still more likely to enforce the absolute  concept of do not disrespect elders and so on.  But, it is really not comparing the proverbial fruits, and surely not comparative in the flow of time and societal evolution.  At least they BSA had a petard on which to be impaled.  Hardly anyone else did, and certainly the broader communities of the time did not, though we have all read about the suspected abuse that was found mutilated or just dead someplace.  Those responses may have been the best many had at the time, and ifit was widely accepted within the community that the person may be a predator, most would look the other way, or even say "just desserts".  Ultimately, we need to pay attention, follow the rules, always be vigilant, no matter who may be involved, and keep the youth foremost in our concern.  Sadly, it will still occur I fear.  And the images and examples in our modern society are not conducive to supporting this approach.  

So why is it that you feel that the BSA should not be held as accountable as the Catholic Church and other organizations which has had to pay out billions to victims of child abuse which happened at the same time as BSA Child Sexual Abuse?  Why do you blame parents, law enforcement, lawyers, society norms etc etc and not just say BSA was wrong for their cover ups and strong arming of parents not to prosecute and then burying any reports that they archives until the Oregon Supreme Court ordered the files to be released. 

36 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Actually the sad thing is that you are unable to find any peace or relief from your trauma.  And no amount of money will ever cure that, nor accusing others of not caring or having any empathy.  I pray that you may somehow find that relief and peace in the next journey.  

All of the views you have written over the past few years speaks volumes about the darkness of your heart.

Dear @skeptic the only SAD about all of this is that you and so many of the entrenched BSA care so little about and try so hard to downplay what transpired within the BSA for so many years. You have tried to divert away what actually happened by blaming lawyers, parents, the police and victims without really acknowledging that survivors deserve every penny that they may get. 

On 8/29/2023 at 6:53 PM, skeptic said:

I have no issue with legitimate suits, only frivolous or over the top ones that want more than is rational just because someone may feel sorry or it is the insurance company paying, or they see someone as having money.  Suing for more than actual expenses, and somehow feeling you are owed an outlandish amount for "pain and suffering" or similar wording is simply dishonest from my view.

56 years ago, I was the victim of 2 BSA personnel who had decided to have unlawful sex with me (yes it was a crime 56 years ago). Over the past couple of days, myself and 10's of thousands of other survivors are being called dishonest for wanting to be paid monetary damages by another person who claims to be in a BSA leadership position. 

On 8/30/2023 at 10:00 AM, qwazse said:

From their perspective paying a past victim  puts a number of current kids at risk.

From another BSA leader I get if they pay claimants, we put current kids at risk.

On 8/30/2023 at 11:10 AM, Armymutt said:

You can't get blood out of a turnip.  You also shouldn't be squeezing the blood out of a program that is for kids.  So no, I don't think that pain and suffering from an organizational level is appropriate.  It should come from the perpetrator. 

And this from one more BSA leader. We are not "squeezing blood out of a turnip".  BSA made a conscious decision to enter bankruptcy and by doing so deprived myself from pursuing my case thru state court where the outcome would have probably been more than I get out of the bankruptcy (my case has been filed in California courts in case the bankruptcy fails).

26 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Oh yes inflation is a factor. So is the loss of COs and membership. But let's admit it, the bankruptcy, and the increases in insurance are the biggest factors. And while some of the money is coming from one time payments, some of those payments are coming from loans that need to be paid back.

So with all that has been discussed the statement of survivors wanting to be compensated beyond expenses for pain and suffering does that make us dishonest?

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

By making the program cost prohibitive to many.

BSA sets their pricing based on expense. The payments to survivors is a one time  payment for the most part (land, paintings, oil rights). It would be disingenuous to blame increases on survivors as you have not mentioned inflation.

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

 Yes, but insurance rates, and legal costs,  are driving up the prices.

Legal costs are the cost of going into bankruptcy. BSA chose that route and underestimated the amount of boys who had been molested (and yes some of these claims are fake). The increase in insurance costs cannot just be attributable to just the survivors. I am sure that the insurance companies have done more actuary studies as to what they will be paying out in the future for CSA cases. 

2 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

You also shouldn't be squeezing the blood out of a program that is for kids. 

As I have previously stated the majority of the money in the settlement is from insurance companies. the BSA took out those policies in case of claims against the BSA. 

5 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

Unless BSA went through and vetted every single perpetrator and supervised them, then there should be no monetary claim against them. 

Here is the crux of the liability. The BSA chose not to go thru a proper vetting process and there was not proper supervision of these employees and or volunteers the courts have decided that BSA has a responsibility to pay for damages.

10 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I didn't get money from KIA, even though they knowing sold a car to a guy with a drunk driving history.  I don't get money from the state even though they knowingly let a guy with a history of drunk driving out into society.  I don't get money from whatever company made the intoxicating beverage, even though they know it is abused. 

The driver of the Kia was not an employee of theirs on company business but if he had been you would have received money from them. Was the state supposed to lock the driver away for life? He did do 3 years. Once again if the driver had been an employee of a company who made alcohol and was on company business you would have received a substantial settlement. My two abusers were volunteers who were on BSA business (a campout).

16 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

Seems like an odd way to twist things towards oneself.

You can thank @skeptic for what he invoked. 

3 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I got nothing beyond expenses after getting hit by a drunk driver.  A piece of my exhaust pipe punched a hole through the top of my foot.  I have arthritis and a permanent limp.  The only money I got in my pocket was to pay for the bike and other equipment.  The bad guy got told not to do anything bad for three years and sent on his way.

I am not sure where this happened, but you should have gotten money for pain and suffering. Where you unaware of this? Did you have a lawyer? Did the drunk driver have insurance coverage? If he had no coverage and you had no uninsured motorist or if your uninsured motorist was only enough to cover the motorcycle that may be why you received nothing else. 

The bulk of the money in the BSA settlement (if the chapter 11 succeeds is from the insurance carriers). BSA National and locals will emerge largely intact and will be sent on their way.

24 minutes ago, qwazse said:

How it “sounds” is purely subjective.

So if I am correct then you agree that I should receive zero dollars for my abuse since I did not incur any financial cost.

25 minutes ago, qwazse said:

From their perspective paying a past victim  puts a number of current kids at risk.

And exactly how are current kids paying me and how does that put them at risk? 

20 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As you know, I am for the victims. I know several personally. However, not everyone who was part of the lawsuit was a victim, but rather someone trying to money

I agree with you....however my response to @skeptic was over his statement of thinking it is dishonest to sue for more than expenses. 

With this line of belief I would be entitled to nothing for being raped. I have had no direct costs that I have had to pay. My insurance has covered my therapy and my meds, but I have had a lifetime of pain and suffering. Does that sound fair? Even today I am going to be doing a new REM therapy to try to alleviate my trigger points and this is 53 years after I was assaulted,

13 hours ago, skeptic said:

Suing for more than actual expenses, and somehow feeling you are owed an outlandish amount for "pain and suffering" or similar wording is simply dishonest from my view. 

So now you are calling victims dishonest? You think there should be no dollar amount tied to pain and suffering? Shame on you.

I don’t think it’s tricky. The money paid out was because BSA chose to go into bankruptcy. If bankruptcy was not the choice of BSA then that money would not have been spent in that matter. I believe @skeptic has made it clear in all his posts that it is the claimant’s lawyers who he considers “vultures etc”.

5 hours ago, skeptic said:

If the lawyers, and now the media people were not making money hand over fist, it would be easier to deal with.  

Not one lawyer representing a claimant in the bankruptcy (outside of the TCC lawyers) has received a dime as of now. If you know one, name them and then your stance may have some validity. 

8 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

BSA Bullying Prevention Guide

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/bullyingpreventionguide.pdf

I read this but I would add one additional thing, have any therapy offered for free to the bullying victim. Not all parents have this covered in their insurance plans and it is costly. BSA could buy a blanket policy to cover this expense. 

In an email from my lawyers today I was informed that in their opinion it will take more than a year before appeals are exhausted. Hartford and Century do not have to put money into the settlement trust until after the appeal process however the claims review process will be taking place during this time.

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

IMHO it is our screwed up legal system that allows lawyers to cause issues where there are none, or they are minor.  Far too many ridiculous monetary payouts for things that are mostly part of the larger human race.  The issue we face(d) likely would never have even gone to court in much of the world, and our media just makes it worse by their skewed focus on sensationalism.  

 

The issues that BSA faced were caused by cover ups, secret files and the want to keep everything that was happening covered up to not damage BSA when fundraising. It was not caused by lawyers representing claimants. 

So you are saying that Child Sexual Abuse is just part of the larger human and race and compensating victims/survivors for the hell that they went thru and live with is ridiculous? So, if the average payout to a BSA survivor of CSA ends up at $30,000 each that is a ridiculous amount?

You are correct about most of the rest of the world such as India where there are gang rapes of women and children and if you are a perpetrator you might have to spend a night in jail or the Middle East where a man raping a boy is basically ignored. Or how about Iran where women are jailed and then raped.

My question to you is did you learn nothing over the course of the last 3 years? If you have not, then you should really reflect.

2 hours ago, BadChannel70 said:

Now what happens when we all get through "all appeals exhausted" the non-settling insurers decide to file bankruptcy themselves?

They are just delaying the inevitable. Money is not really the issue with them except that the longer they hold onto their money the more they will make.

Advance funding for getting settlement trust started.

a8b7ab66-3106-4bdc-ad71-9e2a56280983_11010.pdf (omniagentsolutions.com)

1 minute ago, KublaiKen said:

Weren't they talking about Scouting in Africa, not the BSA? Specifically with regard to Baden-Powell's influence there?

Thank you. 

12 hours ago, skeptic said:

Both, though surely you knew that already.  

 

And they were very segregated.  

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

The FACT that scouting was open to Aftricans when BP was still alive should be enough to negate this.

Was that Black or White Africans?

28 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

These requests are for fees paid to secondary firms that represented their clients (Coalition, Pfau...) in the effort to "make a deal" with the other constituents (BSA, insurers, etc.)

I sure hope they do not get paid for anything other than client representation.  Nothing extra!!