johnsch322

7 minutes ago, HICO_Eagle said:

The thing is neither BSA as a national organization nor the troop involved had standing.  The Scouts involved were the ones who should have filed charges.  The problem for BSA then was that accusations without proof of criminal conduct could have had serious repercussions and exposed the organization to liability.

This is Hooey, When the initial allegations came forward about the nude photos he could have been removed as a member of the BSA period. There is no god given right to be an adult member of BSA. How many young boys could have been saved? 

And they did have standing as he was part of their organization.

13 minutes ago, HICO_Eagle said:

They did hold themselves to a higher standard and they chose to eliminate the threat as best as they (thought they) could.  Saying or insinuating someone had homosexual or bisexual inclinations was a far different matter in 1968 than in 1998 or 2008 or 2018.

Taking nude photos of young boys and having sexual relationships with them is neither homosexuality or bisexuality. How can you possibly say they removed the threat as best they could when after the nude photos came up they allowed him access to children. That is called gross negligence. 

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

If we look back on 1960s as the era of free love and redefining society,

This statement I can't get out of my mind. I am a child of the 60's having been born in the early 50's. I had long hair, I smoked pot, I questioned authority, and I witnessed and read about all that was going on in that time period. Not once was Free Love about sex with children or taking photos of young boys to satisfy perverted sexual desire it was about consensual sex with consenting adults and not feeling guilty about it. 

4 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Twice called to task for showing bad pictures? 

"was twice "called to task" for taking nude photographs of Boy Scouts," you need a law to know that was wrong?

"two Scouts came forward to say Brock had "relationships with them as well as other members of the troop" and I know for a fact that the types of relationships he was having was hella illegal, even in the 60's.

19 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

 I was referring to the earlier use of a specific person that where the poster used that person to argue the system failed.  From my reading that specific case file, the system worked. 

"Clyde A. Brock, a 53-year-old bachelor, was twice "called to task" for taking nude photographs of Boy Scouts, displaying them around his Oregon City home, then showing them off to boys who visited. Yet troop leaders didn't kick him out.

Only after two Scouts came forward to say Brock had "relationships with them as well as other members of the troop ...that cannot be condoned" was he expelled from Scouting in 1968.

Scouting executives quietly blacklisted Brock from ever volunteering again, but let him skirt the accusations by writing a letter of resignation citing only his high blood pressure for quitting.

Let's see how the system worked:

Twice called to task. Not once but twice,

Troop leaders did not kick him out.

Later had multiple relationships with multiple boys (and we know what that means).

He was not reported to police.

Allowed him to write a letter of resignation.

BSA Settlement Trust Financials Thru 12/31/23

https://scoutingsettlementtrust.my.salesforce.com/sfc/p/#Dp0000016pkB/a/Uu000000e6l4/QDFa7uyndHmsnfZMMFiAnt0qCKrBIPkLSXKIzLDxTgU

3 minutes ago, skeptic said:

But, again, the date on this article shows that the file was public very early on, so it was not hidden.  Horse is dead as far as that part goes.  

This is not a factual statement. Part of the files were released to the public October 18th, 2012, and only after a court order. Even what was released covered only 20 years 1965 to 1985. Even today there are files that have not been released. 

Boy Scout 'perversion files' offer disturbing portrait of suspected abusers, handling of their cases - oregonlive.com

"Many records show Scouting officials referring to sexual abuse in the vaguest terms -- describing it as "improper and indiscreet conduct with boys" or "abnormal conduct with boys.""

This is part of the path of release and why so many people associated with BSA hate him

2006:

Washington State Supreme Court rules that "perversion files" must be revealed to Seattle sex-abuse lawyer Tim Kosnoff.

Here is a part of the Boy Scout efforts:

"Clyde A. Brock, a 53-year-old bachelor, was twice "called to task" for taking nude photographs of Boy Scouts, displaying them around his Oregon City home, then showing them off to boys who visited. Yet troop leaders didn't kick him out.

Only after two Scouts came forward to say Brock had "relationships with them as well as other members of the troop ...that cannot be condoned" was he expelled from Scouting in 1968.

Scouting executives quietly blacklisted Brock from ever volunteering again, but let him skirt the accusations by writing a letter of resignation citing only his high blood pressure for quitting.

Brock's case is included in 14,500 pages of confidential Boy Scout"

3 hours ago, skeptic said:

Disclosure that the Boy Scouts of America maintain a "red flag list" of persons regarded as undesirable influences on youth

That is a far cry from saying we have files on men who have committed perverted sex acts upon young boys while engaging in the business of the Boy Scouts of America.

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

I have to work on finding this complete article, as I refuse to subscribe to get past the barrier.  I have two search sites to go to, so maybe will find it.  Meanwhile, I thought it was interesting to note.  Take a look and share if you find detail before I do.  

SUBSCRIBE FOR $1/WEEK

Account

And as far as BSA Bankruptcy and where the bankruptcy plan what is the relevance?

40 minutes ago, skeptic said:

"But we do know that one basic prerequisite here is proving one's "connection to scouting".  Yes, and many cannot, yet they're still count as "someone" that filed a claim.  The lawyers certainly have done little real vetting, that has been noted already.  And, if that "real" connection and an actual abuse incident is whown, they are due recompense.  Are you expecting apologies from the name collectors and legal manipulators for all the verified false claims?  

 

Where do you get your information? Are you part of the settlement trust? When you say "many cannot", how many are you saying, what is the percentage? Have you read the claims? Except for what you have read do you know the lawyers? Do you actually even know a claimant? Have you walked in any of our shoes?

As a survivor who was well vetted by a law firm who has filed 1600 claims I am disturbed by your constant attitude of trying to make the BSA look like the victim in all of this. It was the BSA who filed the Bankruptcy and ran their own ads for survivors to come forward. I know this because it was a BSA ad that made me come forward. 

What is sad is that there are people who post who have no real clue.

6 minutes ago, skeptic said:

We have no idea how many of those claims are real.  And this link suggests this is also just the point of the iceberg.  The tar and feathers is due most likely many schools, the Y as here noted, Boys and Girls clubs, uncounted sports groups, and any other youth group the creeps manage to get into.  That is the point.  The issue is not just BSA, and indications are that based on membership over many decades, the percentages of proven abuse are low in comparison to many.  But, the stats are vague, and more is likely unreported or acknowledged than is known.  IF the legal vultures decide to go after the Y, or others, we may see just as large, percentage wise, of an ugly reality of our whole society, and frankly most likely the larger world.  That is the only point.  There is no excuse for your trauma, but sadly, we can see you are one of too many, and not just with BSA.  

 

In 2019, the YMCA of the USA reached a settlement with several victims of sexual abuse who had filed lawsuits against the organization.

The lawsuits involved five victims who had been sexually abused by a former YMCA employee in Minneapolis, Minnesota, in the 1970s and 1980s. The victims alleged that the YMCA had been aware of the abuse and failed to take appropriate action to prevent it. The lawsuits also alleged that the YMCA had a history of ignoring or covering up incidents of sexual abuse by staff members.

51 minutes ago, skeptic said:

https://www.cbalawfirm.com/news/ymca-sexual-abuse/

Just to remind some; the issue is not just one for BSA.  Yet, even though this link certainly suggests the Y had just as many issues as BSA, I do not remember seeing any media stories that were tar and feathering them with the intensity of BSA.  None of it is okay, but when do we stop somehow making BSA more of a pyria than others?

82,000 claimants in BSA Bankruptcy. I guess when an organization has more claims against it.

1 hour ago, Bzzy said:

It is extremely difficult to talk about any of it. If any of the other victims are like me in any way, it is something of which I am still ashamed.  Even now, I wonder if I might have done something different to avoid becoming a target. 

But mostly, I try not to let my memory do any more damage than has already been done.  Sometimes, I can go days without any thought of any of it.  You may call it "denial", I call it "survival".

It is difficult to talk about, until you do. A lot of us are exactly like you. We might be in different stages of dealing with our trauma, but we are all alike. Talking about what happened will help erase any shame you might have and help you realize that there was nothing you could have done. 

You are a survivor. What you survived was not only physical but mental trauma and just like seeing a doctor for physical trauma a mental health professional can help you with your mental trauma.

DM me if you wish,

23 minutes ago, skeptic said:

As long as individuals or groups try to paint a picture of Child Sexual Abuse in the BSA that is not the truth, then these untruths will continue to be called out.

Absolutely true; and the premise plays both directions.  

Go ahead. Just no sad faces please. 

39 minutes ago, skeptic said:

It seems to me that the horse, has been beat until it is no longer even good for the glue factory.

As long as individuals or groups try to paint a picture of Child Sexual Abuse in the BSA that is not the truth, then these untruths will continue to be called out. That is the minimum that those victims who have died or have gone down deep dark holes as a result of their abuse deserve. 

2 hours ago, Tron said:

I think you're missing the point of his statements and now his additional proof of the matter. People are "out to get BSA" when the reality of it is that BSA is the target because BSA has money. If BSA was an open source product with no home office squating on cash this lawsuit would never have happened.

Number one this is not a lawsuit it is a bankruptcy initiated by the BSA to avoid more lawsuits. 

Number two if the BSA was an open-sourced product then the local councils would be facing all the lawsuits and would have to make the decisions of whether or not to go bankrupt.

Number three nobody targeted the BSA. Not one person has as a youth knew a pedophile in the BSA signed up as a member and allowed the pedophile to molest them so they could 50 years later sue the BSA. In fact, the BSA set themselves up with their history of cover ups and lies (BSA official testifying before congress there was no problem with CSA).

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

I wish there was a way for your pain and hate to be lessened.

I think you are being a bit presumptive. You do not know me or have any real knowledge of my mental state. I have no hate, not even against my two perpetrators. The pain of what happened is being brought under control by therapy.

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

But that is not something any of us can do

I have not asked nor will ask for you to do anything.

5 hours ago, skeptic said:

nor is there enough money to do it either.

Money helps especially for those who have had to pay out of pocket for professional help to overcome the trauma that was inflicted upon them. I know for a fact that some survivors have paid into the millions for help.

5 hours ago, skeptic said:

Recognition of reality is not the same as condoning bad actions.  

Whose reality are we talking about. I do not believe you are recognizing the reality of BSA's involvement in the lax enforcement and the subsequent cover up. Heck the BSA told congress they had no issues with CSA within the BSA, what a lie.

43 minutes ago, skeptic said:

I was called names and worse when I tried to point out that BSA was being singled out while a greater problem likely exists throughout the youth serving agencies.  

You were called out because you have consistently tried to downplay BSA's role and responsibility by referencing such as: the social norms of the times that the abuse occurred, BSA is better at CSA prevention than other organizations etc etc. Once again, your words are like that of a child, I hit Johnny because Joe hit Johnny so I can't be that bad.

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Apologist?  Yes for our parents, police, schools, churches, society, and many, many youth organizations that repeatedly failed children for decades.  Uniquely calling BSA out on this is wrong.

It was 2 BSA leaders who raped me. Not my parents, school, church, society or any other youth organization. They were recruited by the BSA, empowered with authority by the BSA and I was indoctrinated by the BSA to obey their leadership role. Why wouldn't someone like me and others who have gone thru similar circumstances call out the BSA?  The BSA had a unique role in what happened to all of us.

A letter released by a Louisiana BSA executive to the BSA's national personnel division revealed: "This subject and Scouts were not prosecuted to save the name of Scouting."[32][33] The files revealed cases of collusion between the BSA and the Justice System, as in a 1962 Johnston, PA, case[34] where a BSA leader pleaded guilty to "serious morals" violations involving Scouts. A local Scouting executive learned of the abuse from a member of the local executive board who served as both mayor and police chief. Newspapers failed to report the connection to the Scouts because, as the executive wrote to BSA national's personnel division in explanation, "No mention of Scouting was involved in the case in as much as two of the three judges who pronounced sentence are members of our Executive Board".[35] Among the files include a 1972 BSA executive writing "I would like to let this case drop ... One father has threatened legal action which could only injure the Boy Scouts of America. My personal opinion in this particular case is, 'If it don't stink, don't stir it.'"[36][37]

2 hours ago, Ojoman said:

I'm done with this topic... beating a dead horse... I have no agenda, hidden or otherwise... from my experience the BSA was far ahead of other youth programs in taking steps to protect kids for all types of abuse. (I could be in error but that's my experience). Hindsight is so wonderful... let's blame people that made good faith efforts dealing with the laws and circumstances. I expect that right this moment there are a few people in the program that are a danger to kids but there is no way, until they act and are reported, to know who they are so when something happens let's blame the BSA for not being psychic. It is obvious that some folks are still in so much pain (and I feel for them) that they need to vent against the 'system'. I've had 'issues' in my own life that were quite painful but I did move on. Folks can quote me, make negative comments about me and my posts but for my money the BSA is still tops for helping kids grow to be solid citizens. Character, citizenship and fitness should never go out of style and giving kids the Oath and Law as standards to shoot for will always be a positive. Don't look for any more posts from me. I'm just glad the bankruptcy is settled and the BSA can start to rebuild and recover.  

Bankruptcy is not technically over. Still has to go thru the appeals process completely and depending on the Purdue ruling might be back to square one. At that point all of the state courts where the cases that have been filed will start moving forward and I ultimately believe if that happens BSA will cease to exist.

PS Not sure which side has been beating the deans horse. You obviously choose to ignore any facts placed before you. 

1 minute ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Choosing to be offended again?? 😛

 

Not offended. I think the hypocrisy is hilarious. 

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Thanks for demonstrating my point.

Be the friend at the door.

As the one correcting cousin Tommy, send @Ojoman a private message.

So I should send @Ojomana private message yet you choose to use this forum to try to correct me……hmmmmm

18 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I am not blind to what is offensive, because, for me at least, I look for intent.  I see no intent to offend in those remarks.  Hence, "...even when it isn't there."

I understand exactly where you are coming from, and I am glad that it works for you.

As a child living in England when my father was in the Air Force, he had a black coworker/friend come knocking on our door. My 5-year-old cousin answered the door and shouted out to my father "there is a golliwog here to see you Uncle John". Luckily my father's friend took no offense but my cousin Tommy was told that what he said was offensive so he would not to repeat what he had said.

13 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

If you are on a continuous search to be offended, you will always find what you are looking for, even when it isn't there.

If you are blind to what is offensive, you will continue to offend.

I have a few years behind me and have watched society change over the course of my seven decades. What was said or attitudes towards people have changed because those who were offended spoke out. It started small and grew. I point out attitudes to those who offend CSA survivors hoping to expand their knowledge and hopefully change their perceptions. 

3 hours ago, Ojoman said:

I would hope that  i never make a disrespectful statement regarding any victim.

You have and you continue. If you do not have the will to research and continue to make erroneous statements than you are disrespecting all survivors. 

3 hours ago, Ojoman said:

Sadly, there was and still is a learning curve on how to prevent and how to treat incidents of abuse. 90% of the cases were 30 or more years old.

Yes, more of the claims are for incidents more than 30 years old. It has been established that men are likely to acknowledge sexual abuse that happened to them in their mid 30's. Because of that there is most likely a major number of cases in the past 23 years that occurred, but no claim has been made.  A tremendous of knowledge is available on how to prevent abuse and how to treat survivors is available. Unfortunately, not of all of the prevention methods are being used (BSA says its cost prohibitive and clumsy to implement. Just read some of the posts on these forums to confirm). 

3 hours ago, Ojoman said:

The BSA's ineligible volunteer files was the first step to try to keep kids safe.

I differ with you on this point. I think it was more intended to keep the BSA's own reputation safe. Why else would they have been secret files that BSA wouldn't share with other organizations and even deny the existence of? In front of a Congressional committee a BSA official said they had no CSA issues.

3 hours ago, Ojoman said:

Ideally, when incidents happened they would have been reported and acted upon and I do know of a couple that were acted upon and I do not personally know of any that were swept under the rug (but the lawsuit says there were many).

The question is and always be who they got reported to and what role did the BSA have in under reporting issues.

3 hours ago, Ojoman said:

My issue is that the lawsuit did not go after the predators, their assets and finances. The entire blame was foisted on the BSA.

I have pointed this out to you previously, but you don't seem to understand the bankruptcy is not a lawsuit. It was a business move by the BSA to prevent lawsuits that had been filed already and prevent lawsuits from being filed in the future. BSA knew that they would not survive going to State Courts and facing survivors in that forum. 

3 hours ago, Ojoman said:

That does not mean we have zero empathy for victims.

Your posts show that you may not have zero, but your irresponsible comments show close to zero.