johnsch322

Well I can say that maybe the plan has not been approved because no one can come to agreement about anything LOL!!

"The long and winding road
That leads to your door
Will never disappear
I've seen that road before
It always leads me here
Lead me to your door"

Beatles

I just talked to an old judge just now and he related to me how he presided over a BSA CSA case around 1990 and how it was a hung jury in the first trial and was settled before the second trial.  I know it’s not pertinent to the thread but thought it was interesting. I sold him a car about 6 years ago and he just came in and bought another. He still sits occasionally and he is 90 years old. 

Sometimes I wonder if it is such a mess that she doesn't want to rule. 

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

The volunteer "as employee" is I think the result of the legal system skewing the actual status and having the courts agree.  It is, as pointed out, not reality.  Are the coaches of youth sports and their helpers employees of the leagues?  Are the volunteers at the Y or BGC and so on employees if they do not get paid?  Lots of room for some actual common judgment on these things, and too often we let the slick tongues lawyer corrupt the real meaning and picture.

Unless an exception applies, an organization typically is responsible for damages caused by its agents. An agency relationship may exist when an organization has control, or should have had control, over an individual’s actions. This concept extends to volunteers, especially if they are doing work under the direction of a nonprofit manager and on behalf of the nonprofit.

I have heard others from the beginning saying that the plan is unconfirmable. 

Now that it has been over 90 days that we have been waiting for confirmation. Why do you all think that the hasn't been confirmed?

11 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

firms are getting hourly payments ... and will also get a large windfall as a share of the settlements.  ... I could be wrong.  It seems wrong to get both the hourly rates and the windfall. 

I also believe there should be no double dip. The firms you are talking about belong to the coalition and they are not presently billing hourly instead there are millions that BSA has agreed to pay them if the plan is approved. 

This was in order to get there yes endorsement on the plan which kind of sounds like bribery to me.

49 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Many view that system as corrupt and as a self-serving legal system.   i.e. the $185m in proceedings against a bankrupt company that had $400m in assets.   

It is my opinion that BSA would not have spent anywhere near $185M if they had chosen to have National only in the bankruptcy. How many of those millions were spent in mediation with insurance companies, LC's and CO's? How much was spent in valuations of LC's properties etc. etc.? BSA National and/or their lawyers made this into a bigger boondoggle than it needed to be trying to salvage as many of their business relationships as they could.

3 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Sorry, but I think you are asking a truly misquided question.  I am simply pointing out that trauma, either physical or mental, especially if repressed for decades for some reason, causes problems that can torment, especially if something happens to trigger it again.  You surely can understand that without implying what you seem to be implying.  There are NO traumas that do not leave some type of hidden scars mentally.  And often they are put into our emotionally padded rooms to stay unless triggered.  Many are worse than others, but they are all real and leave their own scars.  And none of them should be trivialized because ours is "worse"; they all require us to find a way to adjust and with luck keep them locked down.

I do not find my comment misguided at all. You have been in multiple discussions where you downplay Child Sexual Abuse, the reporting of, the handling by authorities and families and now you are trying to make case for teasing and sticking bobby pins into electrical outlets to being equivalent to the effects of Child Sexual Abuse. I can assure as someone who was teased by a sibling and was told by my parents of charring electrical outlets by various means that the trauma of my sexual abuse has left far bigger scars and caused much issues in my life than a compulsion to tell people about kid proofing homes. 

10 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Our problem is that none of us see things exactly the same, and certainly do not intelectually and emotionally respond the same to various issues.  And, it depends on the age of those experiencing a trauma.  Very young emotional or physical trauma may be so buried that few ever really undrstand what that small discomfort or awful fear is that comes to them in dreams or with some trigger.  Until if connected my brother's teasing me about his sunlamp being a wolf's red yee, I could not sleep without some light.  Once I figured it out, it no longer was a problem.  Similarly, I understand why electricity frightens me because my parents told me about my putting a bobbye pin in a wall socket when still in diapers, and the result.  I can sort of laugh, since I survived, but that is still scary to me, and I find myself telling young parents to make sure they child proof things.  Maybe why the title ofthe movie Fifty Shades of Gray is so powerful when you think about it.

I hope with all my heart that you are not comparing being raped by another human being to putting a bobby pin into a socket or that understanding what happened will make the trauma go away like yours did from a teasing brother. 

2 hours ago, elitts said:

My point is that there wasn't a recognition that non-violent sexual abuse would result in long-standing psychological damage.  Yes, if a child was raped and was catatonic afterwards, the system could recognize that as a direct impact of the assault.  But even then, they would work to fix the catatonia and once resolved, would view the matter as largely resolved.  If a child was abused but continued on with life apparently normal (home and school and church life) the view was essentially "Oh, they came through it ok, no further work needed".  The idea that there might be PTSD like symptoms or problems with attachments and relationships further down the road wasn't even on the radar.

Please read the summation of the first study (published in 1990). 

 The sexually abused men were significantly more likely to have manifested compulsive behaviors such as chemical addiction and abuse, sexual acting out, compulsive spending, compulsive overworking, and compulsive overeating. They were more likely to have had problems with truancy in school and later to have been involved in criminal behavior. Overall, the victims were more psychologically disturbed than the nonvictims. 3 figures, 5 tables, and 38 references

1 hour ago, elitts said:

Again I think this is the result of a failure to understand how devastating child abuse (sexual or otherwise) is to the psyche of an individual, particularly if untreated.  I truly don't think parents understood how life-altering the abuse would be for many children.  It may also have been parents deliberately putting on blinders about the issue; hoping "if we just ignore it and never talk about it, it's like it didn't happen."

Sexual Abuse of Boys: A Study of the Long-Term Psychological Effects (From The Sexually Abused Male: Prevalence, Im

Child Abuse—A History | Encyclopedia.com

Federal Legislation against Child Abuse
In 1974 Congress passed the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA; Public Law 93-247). The law stated:

[Child abuse and neglect refer to] the physical or mental injury, sexual abuse, negligent treatment or maltreatment of a child under age eighteen, or the age specified by the child protection law of the state in question, by a person who is responsible for the child's welfare under circumstances which indicate the child's health or welfare is harmed or threatened thereby, as determined in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare.

pact, and Treatment, V 1, P 137-152, 1990, Mic Hunter, ed. -- NCJ-128859) | Office of Justice Programs (ojp.gov)

5 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Many of us have read dozens and dozens of files.  It's not that the files are hearsay and innuendo.  It's that the interpretation people are applying is often twisted by decades of time having passed or ignoring context or simply begging the conclusion people want to present.  Of the thousands of files, you will be able to find ones that are not handled well.   From what I've read, most (not all) seem like they were handled reasonably given the time and place.  

@fred8033you were not part of the group that I was commenting on. I believe in your willingness to look at everything from a broad perspective and your sincerity. My apologies if you felt this was directed to you. 

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

I just read 8 of these files in detail, which I had not done previously. In part it's because it makes me sad and angry. Among the files are three Scouters (of 5 men) who hosted a campout 'party' at which the five men had sex with a "large group of boys." One of those arrested committed suicide the day the story broke. At one of their campouts, a Scouter "imported" a 13 year old girl. In another file, the Scouter had 3 priors and prison time for indecent exposure and sex with a minor before he was a Scouter. In yet another, the Scouter was arrested and went to prison in 1973 (after the BSA incidents). He resurfaced in multiple other places - BSA is not mentioned - and was eventually found to have abused 50 other boys over that 20 year period. Remember, this is all in my home state and around my LC, thought not all in it. The big cases were in the news, though not my little local rag. I sure never heard nuttin' about any of this. Wee...

There are those on this forum that are skeptics when it comes to facts. They tell us that the IV files are full of innuendo and hearsay and that the info should have never been published. I bet dollars to donuts that the skeptics never read the files or choose to disregard what their own organization kept files on. 

8 minutes ago, ScouterDavid said:

Any delay just drains money from the trust. So sad. The only ones getting anything out of this are the lawyers.

Delays only take trust money that would come from BSA National which is not the largest component. Survivors at some point of time (to be determined) will still get paid (amount to be determined).

41 minutes ago, clbkbx said:

As I noted above, no one in BSA ever reached out to me. Here’s some more context: it was the late 1990’s (hope that doesn’t get counted as “old timer”!), my abuser was arrested (bc my family and I reported it to the police) so it was publicly known, I was in Scouts from Tiger through 18 yrs old, Eagle/Vigil/youth leadership positions so I knew/interacted with a lot of adults (SE on down). I never heard they did any reimbursement until recently (my broke college self could have used it more than now). 
 

That said, I’ve been considering it for my more recent during-bankruptcy therapy but haven’t… has anyone on here done that? 

Nor did anyone within the BSA advise you to sue. The BSA knew that you could since they had a legal team and insurance coverage in case you did. Of course if you or your parents were aware of that and took that path it would have cost the BSA money (increased insurance and legal costs and possibly less in donations).You could have used that money for counseling, medical issues and other things that arose from your CSA. Also this being the late 90's when you were molested the effects of the  molestation were well known at the time so no one can say it was how things were.

One major thing I can't get out of my mind is what was ever done for the victims? I have not found any evidence of the BSA extending a helping hand to those who were damaged while in the care of the BSA. Does anyone have any knowledge of what the policy to victims were? 

40 minutes ago, clbkbx said:

I think there’s a difference between the norms you mention and CSA. I’m younger than you but am fairly certain male-male pedophilia was not accepted as part of society. So the everyone-was-covering-up-crimes so it’s fine approach always seems a bit gross to me. 

You are correct. Not everyone was covering up crimes or hiding knowledge in confidential files. CSA was illegal, immoral and was punishable in the 40's, 50's, 60's 70's and up. Many men including scouters went to prison for CSA. The IV files have clippings and arrest reports of such scouters. After reading many files what impression I have is that if the parents went to the police first there was a higher probability of arrest and conviction vs if parents went to BSA authorities first. 

13 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Who requested that the boys not get too much publicity?

In one letter it mentions no newspaper publicity, In another it says committee worked hard to keep away publicity for victims and BSA. from the tone I would say that the committee (BSA) did not want the publicity.

PS page 4 is missing...I wonder what that mentioned.

Something else is also curious there are three perpetrators mentioned.

58 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I’ve read about 50 IV files from the LA newspaper (?) website. They include a decent amount of correspondence between the local council and regional/ nations bsa. None say to destroy records. Most / all say to “forward on” any additional information.  

I did not read this in the IV files, but you piqued my curiosity and read a couple that were not my own. I came across this gem and I quote from Scout Executive James E Houck

"From the date this was found out, there has been no contact made by the three men to the boys to my knowledge. The committee worked hard to overcome this situation and to keep it from getting to much publicity both for the boys and for scouting. They were able to get the services of a State Trooper, John Simms, who obtained the rank of Eagle"

I may not be the smartest man but the fact that a committee worked hard to contain publicity and recruited a State Trooper to help speaks volumes about concealment. We can't let the public at large know what is happening.

It seems I read from someone posting that once an incident from a local council was reported to National that all records of the incident were to be destroyed (including correspondence) at the local level. Tried to find the post does anyone know if this was true?

The one consistent theme that I have seen from the BSA is the notion that there is nothing to see here, deflect, deny and minimize. 

Certain aspects of the above can also be seen thru the bankruptcy and from current members.

18 hours ago, clbkbx said:

As I understand it now, an ASM reached out to the SE, concerned that I was being abused. The ASM was told everything was ok (not sure on what basis). I know my parents weren’t contacted because they were/are upset when they found this out. 

I am amazed that no one talked to you. I also was not asked and one of my perpetrators was in the IV files and was suspected of having 11 plus victims.