johnsch322

1 hour ago, elitts said:

Again I think this is the result of a failure to understand how devastating child abuse (sexual or otherwise) is to the psyche of an individual, particularly if untreated.  I truly don't think parents understood how life-altering the abuse would be for many children.  It may also have been parents deliberately putting on blinders about the issue; hoping "if we just ignore it and never talk about it, it's like it didn't happen."

Sexual Abuse of Boys: A Study of the Long-Term Psychological Effects (From The Sexually Abused Male: Prevalence, Im

Child Abuse—A History | Encyclopedia.com

Federal Legislation against Child Abuse
In 1974 Congress passed the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA; Public Law 93-247). The law stated:

[Child abuse and neglect refer to] the physical or mental injury, sexual abuse, negligent treatment or maltreatment of a child under age eighteen, or the age specified by the child protection law of the state in question, by a person who is responsible for the child's welfare under circumstances which indicate the child's health or welfare is harmed or threatened thereby, as determined in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare.

pact, and Treatment, V 1, P 137-152, 1990, Mic Hunter, ed. -- NCJ-128859) | Office of Justice Programs (ojp.gov)

5 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Many of us have read dozens and dozens of files.  It's not that the files are hearsay and innuendo.  It's that the interpretation people are applying is often twisted by decades of time having passed or ignoring context or simply begging the conclusion people want to present.  Of the thousands of files, you will be able to find ones that are not handled well.   From what I've read, most (not all) seem like they were handled reasonably given the time and place.  

@fred8033you were not part of the group that I was commenting on. I believe in your willingness to look at everything from a broad perspective and your sincerity. My apologies if you felt this was directed to you. 

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

I just read 8 of these files in detail, which I had not done previously. In part it's because it makes me sad and angry. Among the files are three Scouters (of 5 men) who hosted a campout 'party' at which the five men had sex with a "large group of boys." One of those arrested committed suicide the day the story broke. At one of their campouts, a Scouter "imported" a 13 year old girl. In another file, the Scouter had 3 priors and prison time for indecent exposure and sex with a minor before he was a Scouter. In yet another, the Scouter was arrested and went to prison in 1973 (after the BSA incidents). He resurfaced in multiple other places - BSA is not mentioned - and was eventually found to have abused 50 other boys over that 20 year period. Remember, this is all in my home state and around my LC, thought not all in it. The big cases were in the news, though not my little local rag. I sure never heard nuttin' about any of this. Wee...

There are those on this forum that are skeptics when it comes to facts. They tell us that the IV files are full of innuendo and hearsay and that the info should have never been published. I bet dollars to donuts that the skeptics never read the files or choose to disregard what their own organization kept files on. 

8 minutes ago, ScouterDavid said:

Any delay just drains money from the trust. So sad. The only ones getting anything out of this are the lawyers.

Delays only take trust money that would come from BSA National which is not the largest component. Survivors at some point of time (to be determined) will still get paid (amount to be determined).

41 minutes ago, clbkbx said:

As I noted above, no one in BSA ever reached out to me. Here’s some more context: it was the late 1990’s (hope that doesn’t get counted as “old timer”!), my abuser was arrested (bc my family and I reported it to the police) so it was publicly known, I was in Scouts from Tiger through 18 yrs old, Eagle/Vigil/youth leadership positions so I knew/interacted with a lot of adults (SE on down). I never heard they did any reimbursement until recently (my broke college self could have used it more than now). 
 

That said, I’ve been considering it for my more recent during-bankruptcy therapy but haven’t… has anyone on here done that? 

Nor did anyone within the BSA advise you to sue. The BSA knew that you could since they had a legal team and insurance coverage in case you did. Of course if you or your parents were aware of that and took that path it would have cost the BSA money (increased insurance and legal costs and possibly less in donations).You could have used that money for counseling, medical issues and other things that arose from your CSA. Also this being the late 90's when you were molested the effects of the  molestation were well known at the time so no one can say it was how things were.

One major thing I can't get out of my mind is what was ever done for the victims? I have not found any evidence of the BSA extending a helping hand to those who were damaged while in the care of the BSA. Does anyone have any knowledge of what the policy to victims were? 

40 minutes ago, clbkbx said:

I think there’s a difference between the norms you mention and CSA. I’m younger than you but am fairly certain male-male pedophilia was not accepted as part of society. So the everyone-was-covering-up-crimes so it’s fine approach always seems a bit gross to me. 

You are correct. Not everyone was covering up crimes or hiding knowledge in confidential files. CSA was illegal, immoral and was punishable in the 40's, 50's, 60's 70's and up. Many men including scouters went to prison for CSA. The IV files have clippings and arrest reports of such scouters. After reading many files what impression I have is that if the parents went to the police first there was a higher probability of arrest and conviction vs if parents went to BSA authorities first. 

13 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Who requested that the boys not get too much publicity?

In one letter it mentions no newspaper publicity, In another it says committee worked hard to keep away publicity for victims and BSA. from the tone I would say that the committee (BSA) did not want the publicity.

PS page 4 is missing...I wonder what that mentioned.

Something else is also curious there are three perpetrators mentioned.

58 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I’ve read about 50 IV files from the LA newspaper (?) website. They include a decent amount of correspondence between the local council and regional/ nations bsa. None say to destroy records. Most / all say to “forward on” any additional information.  

I did not read this in the IV files, but you piqued my curiosity and read a couple that were not my own. I came across this gem and I quote from Scout Executive James E Houck

"From the date this was found out, there has been no contact made by the three men to the boys to my knowledge. The committee worked hard to overcome this situation and to keep it from getting to much publicity both for the boys and for scouting. They were able to get the services of a State Trooper, John Simms, who obtained the rank of Eagle"

I may not be the smartest man but the fact that a committee worked hard to contain publicity and recruited a State Trooper to help speaks volumes about concealment. We can't let the public at large know what is happening.

It seems I read from someone posting that once an incident from a local council was reported to National that all records of the incident were to be destroyed (including correspondence) at the local level. Tried to find the post does anyone know if this was true?

The one consistent theme that I have seen from the BSA is the notion that there is nothing to see here, deflect, deny and minimize. 

Certain aspects of the above can also be seen thru the bankruptcy and from current members.

18 hours ago, clbkbx said:

As I understand it now, an ASM reached out to the SE, concerned that I was being abused. The ASM was told everything was ok (not sure on what basis). I know my parents weren’t contacted because they were/are upset when they found this out. 

I am amazed that no one talked to you. I also was not asked and one of my perpetrators was in the IV files and was suspected of having 11 plus victims.

59 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Not a lawyer, but my understanding is that if BSA made those records public, WITHOUT A COURT ORDER (emphasis), they would be held for libel.

There was a court order and they fought it all the way to the Oregon Supreme Court. I am not a lawyer either. 

Yes it is sad that the BSA did what they did (concealment). I am glad you agree with me @skeptic

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Well, why are we in this mess now? 

The BSA is in the mess that they are because of rampant Child Sex Abuse that they kept away from the public i.e. withheld/concealed. 

Only two things could have kept BSA from this issue, 1. no CSA (not probable) 2 not concealing the records. It is not the lawyers fault, the parents fault nor the survivors fault. Nor was it was poor judgement in the society of the day it happened (concealment) and no one is trying to revision history except those who constantly float the blame to others or to a society at whole.

If it was not concealment than why did it take an order from the Oregon State Supreme Court to make the IV files available to those outside of the BSA?

The anger I feel as a survivor is not hatred, but my anger is at various people (my perpetrators') the organization that recruited my perpetrators knew there was a good chance I had been abused (BSA) and chose not to offer help, the bankruptcy itself where it seems certain entities are downplaying the value of my claim. 

I honestly feel more hate is directed at myself and my fellow survivors from active BSA adults who want to mitigate what happened and are worried more about what assets the BSA and LC's may have post bankruptcy then they care about what happened.

I feel that there must be a ruling on the confirmation soon so we can can get closer to more certainty for both survivors and for members of the BSA. This cannot happen soon enough.

1 hour ago, elitts said:

It would depend on the nature of the statements and the behavior. 

Yes you are correct.

5 hours ago, scoutlaw74 said:

This is something my son and I have discussed….this is very, very serious, and my son knows it, he also knows he didn’t do this and he has faith that the truth will come out. He was following the buddy system too.

This is the fathers words. 

On 6/27/2022 at 5:14 PM, scoutlaw74 said:

Since I posted here my son has learned more, and it appears that he was accused by a female scout of inappropriate behavior and making threatening statements, which are not true.

Something that is very, very serious and involves inappropriate behavior and making threatening statements would seem to be something the BSA would want the police or local authority outside of BSA to be looking into. As a parent I would want law enforcement involved weather my child was the accuser or the accused.

21 hours ago, scoutlaw74 said:

Since I posted here my son has learned more, and it appears that he was accused by a female scout of inappropriate behavior and making threatening statements, which are not true.

Shouldn't the inappropriate behavior and making threatening statements be reported to the police?

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

causality

Obscure word but I did look it up...cause and effect. 18 months ago the bankruptcy was filed but there wasn't a tremendous amount of knowledge outside of the scouting community who were actually aware. I believe this has worked in BSA and the insurers favor. 

It is a shame these documentaries did not come out 18 months ago. It may have put more public awareness and helped survivors in the bankruptcy settlements.

27 minutes ago, skeptic said:

One for me is taking for gospel, or at least suggesting, that the 82000 number is accurate, even though few have been vetted even a little it seems, and we know the fact exists some likely were harvested.

The number of abused in BSA could even be higher than 82,000. If you were abused and are now mentally incapacitated, dead, or for some personal reason did not want to be part of the case then you are not a claimant. I will give that some of the claims are bogus but someone who constantly calls for balance to not mention these facts is very one sided.

32 minutes ago, skeptic said:

even though few have been vetted even a little it seems,

How do you know this? My case has been vetted and other cases from survivors within my network have been vetted. Just because a claim has not been vetted does not make it untrue.

35 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Also there is admission that some did not bring it up until years later until the ads went up. That does not mean they are not victim/survivors, it just means we do not know if anybody might have been able to be charged at the time.

There is nothing surprising that survivors did not bring this up until years later. I myself told no one for 50 plus years and only after I saw a couple of Facebook ads. Yet BSA knew that 11 plus youth in my troop had been abused by one of my abusers. No one approached me which really says BSA wanted to make as little furor over this as possible. 

44 minutes ago, skeptic said:

The fact the files existed at all is not examined, especially in the context of the time when they started.  They also appear to not note or be aware that in a few instances the files DID identify a problem that had moved, which should be part of the larger investigation in order to be balanced. 

The fact that the files existed at all speaks volumes that the BSA knew there was a problem, tried to keep the public unaware of it and most grossly tried to keep it out of the hands of survivors until the Oregon Supreme Court compelled them to.

46 minutes ago, skeptic said:

And, no matter what, we know that the unwillingness of the victim/survivor and or his family to expose it in some cases, along with the societal position on such things in most of the time frames involved certainly had and have an affect.  

How many more times are you going to keep beating on this worn out carpet of an excuse?  The verbiage "unwillingness of the victim/survivor or his family" is victim blaming in extreme. You cannot and should not use "societal positions on such things in most of the time frames" as even in todays society there is shame in being a victim.  Most victims told no one because of the guilt, shame, and confusion.

54 minutes ago, skeptic said:

And we need closure to happen with the lawsuit so those in it are finally compensated in some manner.

Hypocrisy at it's greatest. For you "some manner" means very little compensation. Look deep inside your self and you will find that the only true reason you want this bankruptcy to end is because you think the stench that surrounds the BSA will go away.

Earlier today I asked you to please do not speak on behalf of survivors and I would like to explain that a little further, it is not your story or your journey in life. You have not lived with the mental turmoil or the physical issues that were caused by members of the BSA. You have not lived with the awakening, the sorrow nor any other aspect of how the bankruptcy has affected us the survivors. 

Feel free to speak on how this issue and all that it is has affected your own personal life. Feel free to speak about how you see all of this affecting the Boy Scouts as that is your personal journey. 

I would never try to speak on behalf of a Holocaust survivor as I was never in that situation. 

The end of the bankruptcy I believe will not end the suffering, mental anguish, or the difficulties that I and most of my brethren are going thru. It will not erase the memories of what happened to us or the fear of what may lie ahead for us. Death itself may not be the end because if there is a heaven or a hell and if we still have memory than all of this will never go away.

So please do not speak for us.

1 hour ago, Tron said:

I am literally telling you how the law works. No one needs to go back and read anything. It is really as simple as explained.

Not sure of your profession, but you do know you are debating with lawyers (myself not included) don't you?

6 minutes ago, Tron said:

Are those outright owned assets or assets leverages with mortgages and inversions? There are 2 sides to every balance sheet. 

Outright owned.

5 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

Sadly, those of us in closed states would be left out to dry.  This is the only reason I finally gave my support to the plan.  As unfair as the SoL situation is, it only gets worse for us in a liquidation.  It took me 50 years to actually want to go to court--and I am prohibited from doing so.  Missouri tried since 2012 to open up civil csa SoL, but it was always struck down by the insurance companies and the religious lobby.  They don't even introduce the bill anymore.  So, good for you.  I hope you find justice.  That is a justice I will likely never find.

I was not advocating for a BSA National Chapter 7 only trying to shed light on the "nobody gets nothing" idea.