InquisitiveScouter

23 hours ago, PatrickPablo said:

I recently took the Aquatics Supervision course but I'm not clear on what are the minimum age and qualifications/training for the "responder/rescuer" role (

There are no minimum age and qualifications for that role.

The Aquatics Supervision manual, which is the ultimate printed authority, says on page 6-6, under Safe Swim Defense (SSD), (emphasis added),

4. Response Personnel (Lifeguards) Every swimming activity must be closely and continuously monitored by a trained rescue team on the alert for and ready to respond during emergencies. Professionally trained lifeguards satisfy this need when provided by a regulated facility or tour operator. When lifeguards are not provided by others, the adult supervisor must assign at least two rescue personnel, with additional numbers to maintain a ratio of one rescuer to every 10 participants. The supervisor must provide instruction and rescue equipment and assign areas of responsibility as outlined in this book. The qualified supervisor, the designated response personnel, and the lookout work together as a safety team. An emergency action plan should be formulated and shared with participants as appropriate. If the other elements of Safe Swim Defense are in place, water rescues will seldom be needed. Most lifeguards at Scout summer camps, many of whom work several seasons, are never called upon to make a rescue. The same should be true at unit swims. Even so, there is always some chance of an unexpected medical emergency or other situation that could incapacitate a person in the water. Fortunately, rescues in a controlled situation are relatively safe, simple, and easy to learn. Danger could arise if a would-be rescuer is a poor swimmer ill-trained and ill-equipped for the situation, or if water conditions are hazardous. However, hazardous water situations would violate the third tenet of Safe Swim Defense and should not be present at a unit swim site. Chapter 10 will alert the reader to skills that should be mastered to ensure victim and rescuer safety, the equipment that supports those skills, and situations that should be included in emergency action plans. Older youth and adults who have completed the Lifesaving merit badge, Swimming and Water Rescue, are candidates for response personnel, as are those who have American Red Cross or other professional lifeguard training. Other good swimmers may be used to maintain the required 1 to 10 ratio if coached in basic surveillance and rescue techniques. The line-and-tender procedure for the First Class rank is one such technique. Adult leaders, including the qualified supervisor, may serve as response personnel for an entire activity that is not too long. Short breaks in concentration are provided during buddy checks. If youth are used, they will generally need to be rotated so that they too may enjoy the activity. The emergency action plan may specify that response personnel with more training will handle special situations, such as a spinal injury, whereas all response personnel may respond when a reaching rescue is indicated. Response personnel will generally work as buddy pairs, with each buddy monitoring the other. Note that council maintained and operated swimming areas, such as those at council camps, are subject to state codes and typically must have professionally trained lifeguards on duty. Regulatory requirements for the number, training, and supervision of those lifeguards supercede Safe Swim Defense protocols for response personnel for unit swims. That is, council camps are “regulated facilities” that must use professionally trained lifeguards in numbers mandated by statutes. The 1:10 ratio for lay rescue personnel does not apply. 

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor Program/Aquatics/pdf/Aquatics_34346.pdf

A lot to unpack there... basically, read Chapter 10, and if your rescue team has those skills, you are good to go.

Minimum number of people to conduct a unit swim?  Four...

1.  Lookout

2 & 3. Rescue team

4.  A "swimmer"

Any two of those four could be the 21+ year olds, one for SSD Supervision, and the second to cover your two-deep requirement for the event.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some "qualifications" available to you, as an adult leader to select from, to meet this point of SSD: (not all inclusive, and listed in decreasing order of "trust" (my opinion only)...)

A.  Go to National Camping School and become a Scouting America Aquatics Instructor, and train your troop.

B.  Become a certified lifeguard through an accredited agency (American Red Cross, American Lifeguard Association, United States Lifesaving Association, etc, etc, etc)

C.  Become a Scouting America Swim and Water Rescue Instructor, and train your troop...

D.  Become Scouting America Swim and Water Rescue certified

E.  Lifesaving Merit Badge

F.  Swimming Merit Badge

G.  Swim and rescue skills up to First Class.

As the adult leader assuming responsibility for the safe conduct of the swim, you determine whether you meet the SSD point of :

All swimming and activity afloat must be supervised by mature and conscientious adults, age 21 or older, who

- understand and knowingly accept responsibility for the well-being and safety of youth members in their care, 

- are experienced in the particular activity,

- are confident in their ability to respond appropriately in an emergency, and

- are trained and committed to the nine points of Scouting America’s Safety Afloat and/ or the eight points of Safe Swim Defense.

Good luck!

50 minutes ago, Tron said:

You know that all of those homes and businesses built in the floodplains are going to get rebuilt. This has been happening for over a century and it just keeps repeating. Texas is like the only state that allows new and rebuild construction in floodplains. 

Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.... the definition of insanity 😜

52 minutes ago, PatrickPablo said:

Hi everyone, 

I am a parent of two. My older son joined Rip Van Winkle Council Troop 16 last year. I've been an adult leader on several campouts since he joined (most recently at a week of summer camp), and am also a fully trained Troop Committee member. [Definitely not bragging or anything, just trying to give the kind of introduction information that might be appropriate here.]

Greetings!  Welcome to the forum.  Hope you get, give, and share some good advice and experience here.

30 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I have been fighting this battle for some time. The troop is now down to 4 active Scouts. Council will not help with recruiting, I have asked them for help, and was told no. Then they  wonder why we have not participated in council sales or do FOS.. Trying to plan next year, and 2 prime camping months are taken up by an activity 3 of the members are in. Plus there will be last minute stuff popping up causing us to postpone, or even cancel trips. This year we were lucky, but last year we had to cancel multiple trips. And finally we have are starting to have a challenge with having enough adults. All of the adults have some health issues, and also limits what we can do. And I was just informed today that my second adult for summer camp may not be able to make it. We leave Sunday. I will be having a more detailed conversation tonite.

I'm tired and burnt out with the troop.

And I am also very frustrated with the council. I used to be active on the district and council level. When they needed something, and I was able to help, I did. Heck they told me I was in charge of an event with 60 days get it up and running. And now they cannot help us with recruiting. And before you say we are responsible, we have done everything we could. In fact I have recruited more girls for the only girls troop. But worse is that they are upping the council fees. In addition to the national charter and registration fees, council is now charging each Scout an additional $50 council fee, and each unit $112.50 PER SCOUT council "fair share" fee. We have families that need help, and they keep adding fees. 

I think once the charter is finished, so is the troop.

 

 

Thanks for your volunteer service.

At some point, the uphill battle becomes too steep to continue.  

If you have no other options, discreetly find a good home you can recommend to your Scouts, and get them transitioned there ASAP.

Recommend you not wait until the Troop does not recharter, then do the transfers... that could cause a break in continuity that may cause some to drop all together.

Do you already have a solid unit they could go to?

SMH

In the military we would say, "No plan survives first contact with the enemy." (attributed to Field Marshal Helmuth von Moltke, Prussian)

The Scouting version of that is, "No plan survives contact with reality."

And Churchill said, ".... the best generals are those who arrive at the results of planning without being tied to plans."

The Scouting version would be, "The best Patrol Leaders are those who accomplish the goal without being tied to the plan."

Many, many more quotes along these lines show the wisdom of planning, and then not being adamant that you stick to the plan you have made, come hell or high water...

Just now, jcousino said:

It goes along with the cheapest way. All courses and training have been dumbed down, and the number of students has increased. It's just box-checking. OK, you attended. 

No, it isn't.  Did you read my original post?  I train to standard, and keep a record of their training.

I would posit your statement should be presented the other way around, "... do not fall for certification instead of training..."

Esse quam videre.

9 minutes ago, jcousino said:

Please never fall for training instead of certification on anything.

I am a bit confused by your response.

So, do you have Scouts who are working on First Aid Merit Badge pursue a "certification", to meet their requirement which says,

17 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

As long as they realize that there are situations where BSA does require a copy of the certification card, such as meeting health officer requirements for day camps, etc. and that just having NO6 in their training on my.scouting will not suffice; I would rather they know what to do in case of an emergency than having a piece of paper in their wallet.

BTW, I have had conversations with Camp Directors on this wrt NCAP.  And wherever the standard is vague or conflicting, they have interpreted it in their favor (training versus certification).  I know a Camp Director who also asked for clarification from National on this issue... and got no response.  So he used "training" versus "certification" to meet NCAP requirements.

3 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

As long as they realize that there are situations where BSA does require a copy of the certification card, such as meeting health officer requirements for day camps, etc. and that just having NO6 in their training on my.scouting will not suffice; I would rather they know what to do in case of an emergency than having a piece of paper in their wallet.

Agree!

Wanted the forum's thoughts on this topic.

Here's the background...

I am a CPR/AED (and First Aid and Wilderness First Aid) Instructor.  I train about 50 people each year in BSA, and issue certificates from the organization certifying me as an instructor.

The training books, materials, and certificates for the courses have a cost, most of which goes to the certifying organization.

When I organize and offer a course, I explain the fees associated, and I do not tack on extra fees to generate an income.  Basically, I offer the training for free, but ask for a cost to cover the items above.  This helps keeps costs extremely low for our volunteer leaders.  And because of this practice, I have many more requests for courses than I can offer.  I have to turn lots of folks away, because I do not run my training as a business as many others do.  (The market rate locally for an in-person, hands-on, CPR/AED class is about $100.)

I keep records of all courses, and the syllabus I teach for each specific class.

After issuing certificates, I also submit a training report to council for N06, CPR/AED.

Due to economic pressures in some units, I have been asked (I am purposely vague there) to provide training, but not to issue "official" certificates (due to cost), and then further asked to submit training attendance to council for N06 CPR/AED for tracking in adult leader records, so they are covered with respect to the Guide to Safe Scouting which requires "training" instead of "certification".)

So, we have a distinction between the two statuses, certification versus training, with one difference: one has a paid certificate from the issuing agency, and the other does not.

I have been thinking a lot about this and researching BSA "requirements" (for adults and youth), and state and federal laws and have the following observations/thoughts.

1.  If a person attempts CPR and AED use without training or certification, they are covered by Good Samaritan acts and Federal legislation.

2. We would desire that everyone be "trained" in CPR and AED use.

3.  Some businesses and occupations require CPR "certification."

4.  Guide to Advancement 2025 does not require a certification, per se, for rank requirements or merit badges, but specifies *Note to the Counselor: CPR instruction, wherever it is required, must be taught by people currently trained as CPR instructors by a nationally certified provider such as the American Red Cross, the Emergency Care and Safety Institute, or the American Heart Association."

5.  BSA has no specific prescription (that I can find) for awarding N06 training code.  When entered, N06 has an expiration of 2 years, in line with all certifying agencies...

Currently, I have no issue with training and testing folks according to an approved syllabus, and awarding CPR/AED N06 without them paying for a certificate. 

What are your thoughts?

I was going to punt to BSA National Health and Safety Committee, but, as @qwazse says... 😜 

1 minute ago, PACAN said:

All

Oh dear...

Not too far off what was reported before NAM (16 Feb).  https://nam.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/05/Change-the-Way-We-Work-Together.pdf

Final NAM presentation https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/NAM/2025/2 - Change the Way We Work Together.pdf

Although they report the Year Over Year drop as 4%, the drop from Dec 2024, to Apr 2025 was 24.1%

On the scale of GOOD to BAD... that is well on the BAD side.

3 minutes ago, PACAN said:

Friend sent this to me

 

End of April 2025   782276

Is that total (all programs) or just Scouts, BSA?

15 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

We often lament the lack of District and/or Council personnel (including commissioners) involvement at the Unit level. 

We have an opportunity for changing this AND increasing both hands-on/in-person training.

Send the district/council personnel to unit meetings/events to conduct trainings on a regular basis. 

This will accomplish more than just those two opportunities, it will also:

-increase visibility from district/council.

-demonstrate to scouts that adults are also "advancing".

-separate the adults from scouts during the scouting event.

-allow district/council to observe the unit in action.

and more.

@DuctTape for National Commissioner!

It's been a while, and just needed saying 😜

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

...is that all there is? ...something is missing  (I hear a Peggy Lee song in my head)

Saw no listing on Safe Swim, Safety Afloat.

There should be a Head Table - Required Training for All. YPT/SYT  should go there!

First Aid training?  Basic First Aid/CPR  for Cub Scout Leaders. Beyond that Wilderness First Aid. 

We can do better than 10 min brain dumps. We learn more from our mistakes and mistakes of others - discuss incident report examples.

Is training leaders to deliver the Program about learning process or preparing for adventure?

Another $0.01,

We track all of these at the unit level with a conditionally formatted spreadsheet.

Here's just the first 14 of our 30+ registered adults.  You can tell who the Committee Members are 😜 Well, those who never go camping...

Fourth one down is mine   When you are within 30 days of expiration, you highlight YELLOW, and our Unit Training Manager gets on your case.  When you expire, you highlight RED, and then I get on your case   And if it is required for an event, you do not go as an adult until you get your stuff done.  We need capability and backup for contingencies.

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

...is that all there is? ...something is missing  (I hear a Peggy Lee song in my head)

Saw no listing on Safe Swim, Safety Afloat.

There should be a Head Table - Required Training for All. YPT/SYT  should go there!

First Aid training?  Basic First Aid/CPR  for Cub Scout Leaders. Beyond that Wilderness First Aid. 

We can do better than 10 min brain dumps. We learn more from our mistakes and mistakes of others - discuss incident report examples.

Is training leaders to deliver the Program about learning process or preparing for adventure?

Another $0.01,

I totally agree with you.

But, those trainings are program specific.

For example, G2SS requires Safe Swim Defense (SSD) only for a swimming activity.

Safety Afloat only for boating stuff.

Climb On Safely only for unit level climbing activities.

Range Activities Safety only for unit level range stuff

First Aid and CPR only for Safety Afloat, and not for SSD (a disconnect, IMO)

Wilderness First Aid is only recommended, not required.  Well, required by BSA High Adventure bases, but that is the only program that requires it

A well-informed unit leader has all the above.  But a TRAINED (for the position) leader is not required to have them, by BSA standards.

35 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

I'm baffled.

1. The SM/ASM required training appears glaring incomplete both from an official/legal and an outdoors/adventure standpoint.

2. Course duration appears so short as to question content and usefulness.

Trained for what exactly?

My $0.02,

You must also have S11 (IOLS) and SCO 800 (Hazardous Weather) to be trained. (From the red notes below.)

Now, in the G2SS, you'll find that for Cub camping, you MUST have one leader who is BALOO trained.  There is no such directive on the Scouts, BSA side for IOLS.

Hazardous Weather (and must be current!!) is required for all programs.

The classroom versions of SM specific are better than the computer modules... You cannot ask questions or get more clarifying information from your computer modules...(yet)

5 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Registrar was of little help. Said they could not find my training sheets from when I taught. And they wanted proof i actually taught the course. And my copy of training records is MIA. I believe oldest transferred them to storage when he built my current computer..

@skeptic, remind me of a friend who is a longtime Scouter.  His records went MIA, and he not only taught courses at the council level, but was also PTC faculty.

Is your training status in my.scouting showing you as not trained?

44 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Well I'm "UNTRAINED" again. Even though Scoutmaster Fundamentals has "No expiration date." This despite the fact I taught the SM Specific class multiple times when I was district Training Chair.

To the folks who came up with the idea of getting rid of SMF, I will quote one of my districts long serving volunteers, "I've forgotten more about Scouting than you ever learned, and I still know more than you do."

Hey brother, there is a difference between UNTRAINED and UNTRAINABLE 😜 

With S21, Scoutmaster Fundamentals, you are "grandfathered" in.

Here's the update from BSA Training:  https://www.scouting.org/training/training-updates/

"Training Code S21 was retired following updates to the current requirements, which are now covered by S11 (Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills) and S24 (Scoutmaster Specific Online or Facilitated Training). These courses were separated to provide greater flexibility and accommodate individual schedules. We strongly encourage all Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters—including those who previously completed S21—to complete the latest training. Staying up to date ensures you are well-equipped to deliver the program as designed and effectively support the Scouts in your care."

Also, each time you teach a class, you should include your own name in the Training Attendance Report.  You get credit for those also.  If you taught the current S24, you can get a training bubba to put it in your records.  (Super Secret Squirrel Tip:  You can also get your unit level Training Manager, or a Key 3, to do this.)

@jcousino would you please cite your source, and provide a link for your claim?

G2SS makes no prohibitions on model rocketry.

The only model rocket parameters discussed anywhere that I know of are in Space Exploration MB, which says in Requirement 3,

" Build, launch, and recover a model rocket.* Make a second launch to accomplish a specific objective. (Rocket must be built to meet the safety code of the National Association of Rocketry. See the "Model Rocketry" chapter of this pamphlet.) Identify and explain the following rocket parts: NOTE: *If local laws prohibit launching model rockets, do the following activity: Make a model of a NASA rocket. Explain the functions of the parts. Give the history of the rocket.

Since the National Association of Rocketry was a sponsor of the event, I'd bet the rockets in the challenge had to meet their standards.

Ironically, the G2SS DOES PROHIBIT this activity.  See Prohibited Activities, item #22 at https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss07/#b

22. Intramural, interscholastic, or club sport competitions or activities.

IMO, silly that this prohibition is in there, but it is there nonetheless.

Nothing wrong with a group of Scouts competing, but BSA somehow says they just cannot compete AS a group of Scouts.  SMH....What has the world come to?

23 hours ago, sw1928 said:

What are the rules about a scout performing service hours with an outside group in relation to Youth Protection?   EXAMPLE : A Scout does food pantry packing with an outside group not related to scouting do they need a parent to be with them? I know the other rules pertaining to how the service hours are picked, approved, etc. I'm just asking about YPT and Barriers to Abuse guidelines.

The event is not an outing under the auspices of the BSA, and so is not under its rules.  So, as long as the parents understand this, they are responsible for their Scout.

Whenever Scouts request to have these types of service hours approved, we make sure to have that conversation with the parents. 

Think of the logical extreme here... do we have to provide YPT and Barriers to Abuse for any and every they let us know they are attending??

Here's a good resource:

https://troopleader.scouting.org/

Also, get yourself a Scout Handbook.

Then read your new Scout Handbook!!!

Then try to work through the rank requirements yourself in the back.  (at least through First Class.) No, you don't get to earn the ranks.  But, if you cannot do the skills, then how will you be able to help teach or evaluate your Scouts until they can become the instructors?

If you don't understand something, come on back here and ask 😜

@danimal508, welcome!

If you have not already done so...

Log into your my.scouting.org account.

On the upper left, select the pull down menu and choose "My Training"

On the page that pops up, select "Training Center" on the left, and then under then "Training Courses by Program" tab, select Scouts, BSA.

On the next page that pops up, select the "Scouts BSA - Scoutmaster Position Specific Training" Learning Plan.

Enjoy the 192 minutes of training modules there.

When you are done, come back for more 😜

Thanks for volunteering!

1 hour ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

You either demonstrate your commitment to the program or you take your chances.

These are the same consequences in any worthwhile endeavor... including Scouting.

There are many who are fine with just showing up to be served, go camping and "have fun".  We have to be fine with that, too... knowing (or having faith, actually) that we are having an influence, however small, on positive lifelong behaviors.

The real question I'd love to see some empirical data on is this:  Which programs have a more positive influence on the lives of our children? Sports or Scouting (or whatever flavors you choose).  If such a thing can be studied...??