Mrjeff
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Everything posted by Mrjeff
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AMEN!!!!
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Perhaps its time for a change of command. The incoming unit leader could focus on the fun and not worry about "what these boys need to learn is...." The adult leadership in the OA should learn that the lodge doesn't belong to them and what they did is irrelevant unless it aligns with what the voting members want. Jezzzzzzzzzz.............what happened to just having a good time ?
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In order for a youth to be elected they must have Scoutmaster approval. The election team really has no idea who is eligible and they rely on the list provided by the SM. This approval or disapproval MUST be exercised before the election and its really that simple.
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Again I have to ask, what does a national committee know about the successes or failures of a local lodge? I would wager that it ain't much. Make suggestions, provide help if requested, worry about NOAC, but leave the workings of the individual lodges to the local councils that are not owned or administered by the national organization. Their words, not mine.
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How about trustworthy, loyal, brave, clean and reverent?
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⁹0The national committee should mind their own business. If a lodge can come to an agreement with their local Native Americans then leave them alone. If not give advice concerning alternatives. But don't issue cease and decist directives where there is no problem.
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I heard this rumor too, but could not substantiate it.
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This is wonderful, but I can find a tribal pastor to say the exact opposite so who do we listen to?
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Ok guys, I am a lodge advisor and my support of youth leadership is unwavering. If a national OA Committee made up of mostly youth members the decisions that they make would be more palatable. As it is that committee is made up of adults. These far reaching choices should be made by the kids who are affected by these choices. If the pieces keep getting chopped off, soon there will be nothing left, and to me, it looks like that may be the goal.
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I guess that my major concerns are these. The OA started out as a way to honor a few outstanding camp staff members. It then became a society of Scout Honor Campers and then the Scouting National Honor Society, all the while focused on service and camp promotions. The trappings and ceremonial movement are very close to those of another ancient and respected organization and my fellow travelers know exactly what I am talking about. If those specific things were removed there would be no Order of the Arrow. Youth leadership is supposed to be the groundwork of the OA but the many decisions effecting the order are influenced by adults or made without regard to the opinions of the youth leadership. These decisions are also made with little or no regard for the members who make up the order. These decisions do not take into account of the differences between the cultural and social norms that exist throughout the United States. They also fail to consider the relationships that exist between cultural entities within specific geographic regions. With a little creativity solutions could be created that would be generally accepted across the board. If the local tribe located in the southeast supports the program, then let it be. If the local tribe in the mid west objects, then make the necessary changes. Clearly, the BSA will never be as it once was and neither will the OA but if it ain't broke don't fix it, even if it creates differences in the way the program is presented.
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This is really awsome and displays just how easy it is to do a Google search and cut/paste one article to substantiate your opinion, for which you are completly entitled. However; it does not negate the fact that I have never met a First Nation citizen who has any negative thoughts or issues with our current Order of the Arrow practices or customs.
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This is really awsome and displays just how easy it is to do a Google search and cut/paste one article to substantiate your opinion, for which you are completly entitled. However; it does not negate the fact that I have never met a First Nation citizen who has any negative thoughts or issues with our current Order of the Arrow practices or customs.
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This is really awsome and displays just how easy it is to do a Google search and cut/paste one article to substantiate your opinion, for which you are completly entitled. However; it does not negate the fact that I have never met a First Nation citizen who has any negative thoughts or issues with our current Order of the Arrow practices or customs.
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I think that you have identified the issues! We have turned into a culture that accepts good enough rather then quality. Everybody who shows up gets a pass no matter how they participated. Everything should be available to everyone and everyone's rights and feelings are more important then your own. Thomas Payne stated that if you are afraid to offend you cannot be honest. I would venture a guess that if you asked, your Scouts wouldn't even know who Thomas Payne was. Perhaps the BSA and all of its goals,nstandards and traditions has run its course, outlived its usefulness and should just pass into obscurity. This may be a better fate then turning it into something that is only a shell of what it once was.
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I'm a little confused.
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Not being rude simply stating that if you are not a member of the first nation you really don't have a complaint that needs to be the basis of policy. Exactly is the speaker? Is he a chief, an elder or a fringe radical? WHO IS PUTTING THIS STUFF OUT THERE? Why is it so hard to answer this question, doesn't anybody know or is it just made up BS used by people to advance their own agenda? Like I said before, I have never met or spoken to a Native American who has any issue with the OA and the use of Native American regalia. Somebody somewhere can find something offensive in anything. If its offensive to you then you have a choice not to do it. You do not get to choose whether or not I do it.
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Unless you are a tribal member with tribal status and can speak on behalf of First Nation citizens, then you are not one. You are entitled to your ideas and opinions, but really "don't have a dog in the fight." Since you like to mention sports teams, why don't you do a little research into the Florida State Seminole and see where they stand on the issue.
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Unfortunately this is just another step in the systematic suicide of the Boy Scouts. I agree that the BSA is a private organization that requires an application and a membership fee. Therefore the private organization can restrict who can be accepted for membership. At one time each member had to agree with the scout oath and law and recognize their duty to God. It was that simple and it worked for a long time. Like it or not, agreemor not, the Boy Scouts stopped using these strict guidelines and turned the BSA into a club med that is open to everyone and has a place for everybody. Sincce it is for everybody and no one can be offended they slowly cut the guts out of a great organization. I would agree that I would rather discontinue the Order of the Arrow rather then see it be reduced to an embarrassing state. When we the stakeholders are fed a bunch of happy crap and membership is continuing to fall someone is not making good decisions. And don't try to convince me that the recent growth spirt is not based on the sudden influx of girls because it is. Before long the liberal, all appeasing, never offending national grand poo-pas wont have to worry because the loyal, long time Scouters will all be dead and there just won't be anyone to replace them.
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WHO ARE THEY, anyone can right down anything but exactly who are the complainers? If it is some Berkly professor who thinks its ok if a boy thinks he's a girl or if a girl thinks she's a cat, then they do need to "shut the hell up."
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Oh boy, like I said, just try and revoke the membership of someone because they are gay, and see where that goes.
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Right......try to revoke the membership of someone who is gay!!!! Also, the BSA has openly stated that they do not own the local councils, and each council is autonomous with their own board of directors. Cant have it both ways.
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This whole pile of $&!+ is based on supposition, conjecture and opinions. Who are the people making this an issue. Are they tribal members,mare they tribal elders, do they have any tribal status at all? Or are these decisions being made by a committee who is just guessing? An administration can fill committees with people who will forward their agenda. I gald that I was informed that national committee members work hard because in 50+ years in scouting I don't know anyone on a national anything. This post started out discussing how jacked up and sideways the OA has gotten for many Scouts and Scouters. Maybee some of those hard working mystical national committee folks could use their unquestioned expertise to help improve the lodges that are not doing very well. All of this stuff might be easier to stomach if anyone knew the reasoning behind this mess. I wish someone could direct me towards the first nation citizens who dislike what the OA is doing, because EVERY FIRST NATION MEMBER that I have actually spoken are very supportive. Again, show me the valid comparative research and justify these decisions to each and every stakeholder, or leave it alone and quit stirring crap.
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Congress makes the laws, but anyone can violate those laws. Employers, individuals, or governing bodies can all violate the civil liberties of another. And can be held accountable.
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Sorry guys but it doesn't have to beagovernment agency to violate the civil liberties of a US Citizen. I also know very well that the individuals on the National OA Committee can be identified but just try and contact someone and unless you are part of that inner circle, you just can't. As for withholding information, unless its some top secret stuff that is vital to national security, it needs to be distributed. That committee makes decisions that impact lodges world wide. (I have no intention of getting into a discussion about lodges located outside of the United States.) They have no idea how things work in various areas of the country and without due diligence and proper research, have no business making these decisions. I know exactly what happened when the issue of the cub cross over ceremony took place, and there wasn't much input from the national level youth leadership. That nonsense that was presented at NOAC was disapproved by the majority of the Lodge Chiefs in attendance! There are only about 250 lodges in existence and that is not a lot. Every single lodge Chief could be contacted before making these decisions. Whenever I have had any interaction with "national" leadership I always get the brush off and nothing is addressed. If someone is on the infamous and mysterious national committee then be responsible for what you do. The BSA no longer dictates uniform policies, it's all just suggested and encouraged. If thats the case, the OA can only suggest and encourage in a way that is is in line with the parent organization. Obviously the decisions made by national level leadership have not been the best as our membership numbers clearly and the excuse about "difficult times" is getting really old because the hardships are right in the face of the unit leaders who have to deal with the issues with the kids who join scouting to have a good time. The OA would be better off if the national committee took care of NOAC and leave the lodges and the section alone.
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I have recently learned that the mystical national committee, whoever they are, voted on something concerning AIA but are keeping it a secret. A SECRET, if they have the brass to think they can dictate what every lodge in the nation can do then they should at least publicize it and be willing to deal with the push back and fall out. If they try to forbid the use of regalia and verbiage they may be in for a great big stinking and expensive 1st Amendment law suit. That may get their attention. After reading many of the previous posts I would like to remind the group that each lodge is SUPPOSED TO BE administered by youth members with the guidance of an advisor. There are a lot of good excuses to avoid OA involvement and it does take some effort to support the lodge. I'm pretty sure that the local lodge Advisor would welcome any help to make the lodge a success. Rather then extinguishing the fire, the Supreme Chief should change the Lodge Advisor, and I'm sure that if someone would volunteer for that job, it would be accepted!