69RoadRunner

15 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I laid my clothing between the bag and ground pad for a little extra loft and comfort.

Barry

That will still compress the part of the bag where your body presses against it.  The vast majority of your insulation underneath you comes from the pad's R value.

I've switched to quilts from Feathered Friends and Enlightened Equipment.  When it's cold, I use the attachment strap on my sleeping pad.  If it's warm, I can open it up.

The underside of a sleeping bag provides no insulation because your body compresses it, eliminating all loft.  All insulation comes from the pad.

Down or synthetic?  First step is to find the manufacturer's web site and see if there are instructions there.

For down, Nikwax Down Wash on a front loader with a "hand wash" or gentle cycle is what I do.  Low spin speed.

I use a very low heat setting on the dryer and put in a clean tennis ball or flip flop to break up clumps of down.  If your down bag has clumps due to moisture on a trip or if you've stored it compressed, you can put it in the dryer on no heat with the tennis ball or flip flop to restore the loft.

With proper care, a quality down bag will last longer than a comparable synthetic.

14 minutes ago, mrkstvns said:

I wouldn't be troubled by the Sea Base guy if he'd just been caught with the reefer, but LSD isn't a substance I want to just dismiss with a wink towards youthful exuberance. If he's into that stuff, I really don't want him working where I send my kids.

Yeah, when a staffer is having conversations with the fish, you need to be worried.

At summer camp last year, there was a troop of all boys with just 2 female adult leaders.  I have no problem with that, but saying 2 adult male leaders for a group with 1 or more girls is gender bias.  

Having different rules for men and women seems like something that will result in legal challenges.  

26 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Wow, s'mores cheesecake in a dutch oven and chicken thighs with a pomegranate sauce. Pretty impressive, but if scouts are ever going to even consider cooking lunch, maybe something more along grilled cheese and baloney sandwiches with chips and fruit. Quick and easy with almost no mess. 

Barry

The cheesecake was tough because it needs to be cold enough out to firm up.  But, when it's that cold, it's tough to mix, so I had to warm everything up.  It was pretty good.

It's a time balance thing.  We want them to cook and they do.  They also have other activities that are important.  The cooking is only part of it.  The cleanup is time consuming, too.  There are only so many hours in a day.

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Our Webelos Den of 13 scouts took over a dying troop of 7 scouts. The SM took us on his last camp out as a scoutmaster to kind of give us an easy start. Sunday morning at 8:00am, the SM opens the flaps on the tent and tells us to start breaking camp so we can get back to the church parking before church service ended, thus preventing chaos in the church parking lot. I ask, "Breakfast?". He throws, THROWS I tell you, a box of Pop Tarts at us and said, snack on them as we pack.

That was the first thing we were going to change.

Our patrols cook Saturday breakfast and dinner.  Lunch is usually something no-cook like sandwiches.  If they cooked lunch, too, that would be about all we did all day.  But they plan it and their grubmaster gets it.

Sunday morning is usually a no-cook breakfast.  But again, the patrols decide what that is and their grubmaster gets it.

This past trip, there were 2 makeshift patrols and a shared grubmaster.  He got unfrosted Pop Tarts and will probably never hear the end of that as long as he's in scouts.  🤣

We have our Iron Chef competition coming up in November and cooking is 90% of that weekend.  They enjoy it.  The adults cook lunch and we try to go all out to show them things that they could do, plus WE enjoy it.  I did a s'mores cheesecake in a dutch oven.  I've done chicken thighs with a pomegranate sauce, too.  I'm working on ideas for this year.

On our regular activities, the adults are a separate patrol and we eat well.

This is fine as an exercise and training for life in college.  😄

Many, but not all of our scouts, if left unchallenged, would lean toward cheap and easy meals.  We tell our patrol leaders to go beyond hot dogs and spaghetti.  It doesn't have to be gourmet every time, but last campout, they made sauteed pierogies, kielbasa and onions and green beans.  They did a nice job.

On 9/27/2019 at 11:21 AM, mrkstvns said:

I would hope they are not even checking or trying to enforce "rules" like that. 

I think that most experienced scouters already know that cotton has some issues on backcountry canoe trips:  if it gets wet, it's just going to make you colder later --- not warmer --- and it's not likely to dry if you just hang it up on a line once you get to camp.  I suspect they're telling you to bring a synthetic sleeping bag because they've had too many folks who had to sleep in a wet bag when night time temps can easily drop into the lower 40s or below.

Nevertheless, I'm with you. Synthetic sleeping bags don't feel as warm as a good down bag, they're heavier, and they don't compact as well. Even on a canoe trip, I'd rather take responsibility for keeping my bag dry than to be told to use some POS plastic sleeping bag. Same with shirts, socks, underwear, etc. I'll pack a synthetic shirt as a spare, and I'll pack some wool socks because they DO feel good to me, but I am definitely NOT wearing plastic underwear!  Nor do I really want a plastic sleeping bag...

As always, your mileage may vary...

Well, to be fair, there are high quality synthetic sleeping bags today.  There are also cheap sporting goods store garbage.

I personally prefer synthetic and merino wool underwear for everyday use. I think referring to modern polyester fabrics as plastic is inaccurate, but to each his own.

I have a bit of a different take.  I would say pack the 10 essentials for all trips, unless, as others have said, you're going to a place where a knife or fire starter is prohibited.

The reasoning I use is it gets you in the habit of having these things handy.  Most, if not all, can stay in your day pack.

I'm a counselor for the Hiking merit badge.  I do expect the scouts to explain, beyond the 10 essentials, what is needed for a specific hike. If it's hot and water sources aren't plentiful, do you have enough water capacity?  What clothing layers and footwear is appropriate?  How much food?

When my son did it, we did our 20 mile hike into Washington, DC on the Mount Vernon trail.  He planned a stop for lunch at a burger place, so we needed to pack money.  It was summer so we filled our water bladders with ice water at lunch. We knew we weren't going into any federal building, so a knife and matches were not an issue. A poncho was adequate shelter for that trip. We knew we wouldn't need it., but it's in the day pack.

For colder weather, bug spray isn't needed, but it's just kept in the day pack.  Sunscreen might not be needed if your're wearing clothing that covers the skin but it's in the day pack.

It's important to communicate to the scout that you understand that these items might not be needed for a specific hike, but being in the habit of always having them in your day pack makes it less likely that the item will ever be forgotten.  Plus, you simply don't know and these items are light enough.  

My 2 cents.

35 minutes ago, TMSM said:

June has the wettest weather and black flies. In my experience fishing is better in July than August. August is drier so less mosquitos. What does your crew like to do? Fishing, 100 mile paddle, camp at a different place every day, moose viewing? To me its the easiest of the HA venues to "roll your own" plenty of outfitters and guidance.

That's what I need to find out from those interested in going.  We have some who like fishing and others don't hate it, but it's not a priority for them.  Moose viewing sounds great!

Being able to choose your adventure has a great deal of appeal, too.  We did Sea Base 2 years ago on one of the big sailboats with 20 people.  This year we did Philmont.  We're late organizing, but they want to do the Triple Crown with NT next year.

I just looked at the packing list.  How strict are they on synthetic sleeping bags instead of down?  I get that there's extra concern about the bag getting wet, but I'd rather use a treated down bag I already own rather than buy another synthetic bag.

The NT web site doesn't give a great deal of information on the 3 options, although they do make it clear that Bissett is extremely challenging.  From the description there, I suspect Bissett would not be appropriate for the crew we'd likely take.

I'd like to know more than what NT provides to help our crew make a decision on whether Ely, Atikokan or Bissett is the best choice.  We'll have a range of physical abilities.  We just did Philmont with a very young crew and although we did a lower mileage trek, they did it.

Also, when is the best time to go?  I know the black fly is the state bird in that area, but when are they less horrible and how about the weather?

I know people use private outfitters, but the troop has decided on BSA.  I asked a few NT questions in the past and have gone through those again, but any further advice is appreciated.

3 hours ago, SteveMM said:

Ahhh ... I see.  That makes sense, then.  I know one of the things my son learned from his Philmont experience this summer was splitting one tent between two hikers is lighter than each carrying a one man tent.  And, as you said, it reduces impact to the campsite.

Depends on the tent.  My son's Duomid weighs 35 ounces, which is less than half a Philtent and sleeps 2.  He left the inner attached, so he carried the whole thing and his tentmate carried more of their food to make it even.

There are many 1 person tents that weigh even less.

https://www.tarptent.com/product/protrail/#tab-id-2

https://www.sixmoondesigns.com/collections/tents/products/lunar-solo

We did a trek this summer. We saw some families at Ponil and later noticed the tents across the street from base camp.

It's a separate program from the treks, not replacing the treks. It appears to be an attempt to get younger kids interested in the BSA program.

I have disagreements with some of the things BSA has done, but this isn't a hill to die on. 

While I do understand Philmont's reasons for not allowing hammocks, it would be a way to not have to sleep right next to a stinky tentmate.  😴

If you had a crew of 12 all in hammocks, there are some Philmont campsites where you'd struggle to find 12 hammock spots.

We've had 0 my entire time with the troop.  It might be a peer pressure kind of thing.  Hey, all the cool kids are doing it.

I can rest in a hammock but can't sleep in one.  SYOS (Sleep Your Own Sleep)

19 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

I like the Ursack, much more packable. That, and in Northern Michigan, while we do have black bears, we're much more likely to lose our food to raccoons and squirrels. 

I'd also recommend their opsack for sealing the odors.

https://www.ursack.com/product/opsak-odor-barrier-bag-2-pack/

The odorproof bags are, unfortunately, not odorproof to bears.  The Opsacks have a poor reputation for durability, too.

26 minutes ago, mrkstvns said:

Are y'all still hanging bear bags?  Or have you moved on to bear canisters?  The canisters seem to me a better approach to keeping food and smellables safe from our ursine trail companions.

https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/bear-resistant-canisters.html 

They are better.  The good ones are expensive, though.  And they're heavy.

An in-between option, still not cheap is an Ursack.  They aren't approved in all national parks, though.  They're a lot lighter.  For weekend backpacking trips, they're probably a better option unless the area requires a hard sided canister.

https://www.ursack.com/

Andrew Skurka has some excellent criticism of bear bags.  When you don't have an established cable, most bear hangs are terrible, sometimes due to not having a decent branch to use.

https://andrewskurka.com/argument-against-hanging-bear-bag/

We were doing a Philmont prep hike earlier this year.  To mix things up, we rented a cabin from PATC.  It was our toughest hike with some serious elevation change.  We worked on as many Philskills as possible, with the obvious exception of tent setup.

Right where a side trail met up with the AT, we encountered a brown bear maybe 10 feet off the trail.  That was concerning.  Then the cutest, tiniest baby bear came down the tree next to mamma bear.  Oh <Not Boy Scout Approved Language>!

Luckily we were not between mamma and baby and we assume at least one other baby had already climbed down hearing us approaching.  We all stood with our arms spread wide and yelled as loud as we could.  Mamma bear just looked at us, probably thinking, "Do you have any idea how long it took me to get these kids UP in that tree?  Now I have to chase them and get them to go up another tree and they're going to be up all night with nightmares about scouts screaming at them!!"

As one naturalist we know would say, this was a good bear.  She was afraid of humans and ran away.

1 hour ago, SteveMM said:

True ... yes.  Also, if an adult is on the trek who doesn't have a child also on the trek, then the adult must tent alone, of course.  My son's trek had an even number of boys, so he just left his one-man tent at home.  He reported back that the Philmont tents were no problem at all. 

They won't exactly prevent you from doing it, but Philmont doesn't want parents tenting with their kids anymore.  I don't think it's a YPT thing, but more of a keep the kids in the crew together thing.

We had 3 adults, 2 of us with kids in the crew.  The other 2 adults used Philtents and I took a 1 person tent.  

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Why not?

Barry

There are campsites where you'd struggle to find enough spots if everyone is using a hammock.  As others said, it's likely that a large number of hammock users would do harm to the trees, even if you required the use of sticks like the bear ropes.

1 hour ago, SteveMM said:

My son has a brand new (read: no food ever inside it) solo tent that the'd planned to take to Philmont, but he was told that they only want participants to use two-person ones because it reduces the amount of space in camps taken up by tents.

 

If you have an odd number of scouts in the crew, he could use it.

7 hours ago, SteveMM said:

There were patches of snow on Baldy this year while my son was there.  I'm not sure what day they made the trip up the mountain, but their trek started on July 4.

We had a couple of leaders on that trek go with trail running shoes.  They said since the trails are all very well defined, they didn't feel the need to have boots.  The trail runners aren't waterproof, but they dry quickly.  They said it was a strategy that worked well for them.  I suggested it to my son, but he's a traditionalist and wanted boots for the ankle support.

I used trail runners.  I think the support from boots is dubious.  Waterproof boots are waterproof in both directions. Once they're wet, they take forever to dry.  Boots are also heavier.  Every step lifting more weight is not joyful.

45 minutes ago, JasonG172 said:

Again new to this!  Philmont provided tents? Opinions anyone.

Only take your own tents if you have something significantly better than the Philtents.  They're easy to set up, so it's not like knowing your own tent is any kind of issue.  If you have a much lighter, high quality backpacking tent, consider bringing it.  Otherwise, use the Philtents.  If you have any problem, they can replace it.  

On 8/22/2019 at 5:22 PM, JasonG172 said:

Thanks for the review,  we just received our date for next year and I am now in GEAR MODE.  Pretty much made up my mind on pack (Osprey 60) so its the other stuff I am thinking about.  You mention your sleeping bag and I guess I didn't realize how much the temp dropped, I was just going to use my small compact summer bag but it sounds like I need to be looking for a 30 degree bag.  Is that what you're telling me?   

Yes, you really do need to be prepared for chilly nights.  Maybe it won't be as cold when you go, but it could be.