1 hour ago, qwazse said:

It is about assuring that the scouts with cutting implements are sufficiently disciplined to wield them.

Agreed.

So, can anyone tell me how cutting up a card (in and of itself) in any way creates discipline? Does a scout learn to properly use a knife the moment you cut the card? Are they automatically cured of their lack of discipline? Are they a safer scout now that they have a cut card? If not, then might there be more effective ways to teach discipline? If there are more effective ways to teach a scout discipline (if you still have to educate the scout after you cut the card), then perhaps the cutting of a card is more about the scouter and less about the scout. YMMV of course.

48 minutes ago, MattR said:

not letting the scout learn from his own pain or not to have pain.

Pain? Let's use a bit of hyperbole. Would it be OK to cut off the top of their socks as a means of keeping him from slicing their hand open? Would it be OK to make a scout cut off their shirt tail (the tucked in portion) as a means to keep them from slicing their hand open? Why stop at a corner? Why not cut up the card entirely into tiny pieces while everyone watches? What's a little pain between scouters if it keeps them safe?

If you and others can agree that there some actions that cause emotional pain and that would take things to far, then you have to ask yourself if any "pain" is appropriate in this situation. We should not be in the business of trying to cause pain. We should be in the business of trying to teach. I don't want to ever be a bully to a scout if cutting a corner when it doesn't teach anything feels like me being a bully.

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Don't want me to call your suggested practice thievery?

Huh? I think you have me confused with someone else.

16 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Q: Will dens of girls and troops of girls be required to have female leaders?

A: Yes. In Cub Scouting

Well so end my short tenure as DL, heh .

I could maybe pull my wife in as the ADL but this is one heck of a hoop if we are going to require a TRAINED female leader over the age of 21. Simply having female present that has complete YPT seems like it should be sufficient.

My wife WILL NOT be eager to complete the hours of online DL training that would be required to be in compliance.

18 hours ago, cyphertext said:

Never had a parent complain.

I don't think lack of complaints means it is correct.

Some of the arguments for cutting the corner reminds me of another topic being discussed these days - privilege and bias. I read a recent comment from a person that stated that they never felt privilege for their skin color in the same way that many argue that they never felt that cutting a corner is hazing. In both cases, the wrong person is being asked.

I've personally been involved in both receiving hazing and giving it to others. When I gave it to others (and I've done some mean things), you can be sure I didn't think at the time that I was doing anything wrong. I thought I was educating, continuing tradition, building espirit de corps. The person I was hazing certainly didn't tell me that I was hazing them and that I should stop. In many cases, they acted like they enjoyed it. My perspective on this situation was wrong. Even in cases where I was being hazed (Army and college frats), I usually lacked the maturity to both recognize it was wrong and to say anything about it.

Near the end of my college days, I was elected President of my fraternity. By then, I finally had the maturity and the confidence to put an end to the hazing activities my frat was perpetrating. Even then, I had massive opposition (over 70%) from the members of my own chapter. They didn't want it to end. This was coed frat and a few women, privately, supported my stance on ending the hazing. Some of them (both men and women) even tried to "physically" overrule me. They could not see it as wrong because it was the way we had done things for 60 years and it was done to them and it didn't bother them so why should it bother anyone else? No one ever complained about it. This was a right of passage that must be continued.*

Some scouters would rather stick so hard to this action being right (no one ever complains) that they don't seem to be willing to accept the possibility that their scouts lack the maturity and confidence to recognize that they don't like it and to say anything about it. Perhaps cutting the corner is more about what a scouter want to continue and less about what scouts need to grow.

*We had many cases of hazing in the frat but one in particular I eventually refused to participate in and tried to end it - even though I had done it to others as a member. At the end of our terms of elected office, the members would grab the officers and give them a shower party - physically carry them into the shower. This often resulted in a struggle. Everyone laughed and had a great time with it (alcohol was usually involved) but I eventually came to see it as a problem as someone could easily feel sexually assaulted during the activity and when dealing with showers and water, someone could get seriously hurt - so I said no more. A few of the members still tried to carry me in even after I refused and it resulted in quite a serious confrontation that thankfully did not cross over into battery for myself or those involved. This was in the 90s.

About 10 years ago, that same chapter was shut down for a year and they were forced to sell their chapter house over a serious but undisclosed violation related to inappropriate conduct. Unfortunately, my stance against improper behavior did not outlast my term as President.

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

Not to derail the discussion,

LOL! Too late!

14 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

Are you receiving any input or guidance from the CM? Any communication at all?

Oh ya, we meet. Just had our leaders meeting and our first pack meeting. There are no other girls in the pack (they would be in my den per the rules as I understand them).

15 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

"early adopter champion"

Great advice! I have had very limited discussions about the district/council coordinating some all-girl activities but I need to follow up on that communication and own it if I want to make sure it happens.

40 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

card that can be easily replaced

This is the first time someone suggested a new card - and I would be more OK with that solution but cutting the corner cannot be repaired or replaced as you eluded to earlier.

8 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

Scars from knife wounds also are permanent.  

You don't need a scar to have your card revoked or a corner cut, and if a scout did something bad enough that actually resulted in a cut/scar, cutting a corner after the fact would not have changed that - and again, it teaches nothing that would prohibit a scar in the future. It is a form of permanent punishment, it isn't education.

I fail to see why corporal punishment of card is deemed an effective means of education. The Guide to Safe Scouting states that, "Discipline used in Scouting must be constructive and reflect Scouting’s values. Corporal punishment is never permitted. Disciplinary activities involving isolation, humiliation, or ridicule are prohibited."

IMO, cutting a corner is not constructive nor does it reflect Scouting's values. YMMV.

9 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

We seem to have two threads running simultaneously here. One is cutting corners which in my mind is like a policeman pulling you over and giving you a point or two for speeding. Where is taking the entire card is like pulling your license for reckless or drunk and driving.

Why isn't cutting the corner of your chip more like the police officer cutting the corner of your license? A point or two for speeding eventually goes away. You never regain the corner of you chip.

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding cutting corners as a form of hazing, please explain to me how talking to a Scout about a minor infraction and cutting a corner to serve as a reminder to do better is hazing?

Because it is permanent. What other "punishment" or corrective action do we take in BSA that leaves a permanent mark? You can never regain that cut corner. It builds resentment and does nothing, on its own, to teach better skills. Cutting the corner of a card is as an effective method of corrective action as making someone sing for their stuff back.

In thinking about this, I considered other "inappropriate usage" violations my scouts might have at home. If my scout was using their tablet or their PS4 inappropriately, I would not take out a knife and permanently damage their tablet or their PS4 controller as a constant and permanent reminder of previous transgressions. I would take away their usage until they could demonstrate that they can use such items appropriately. Cutting the corner feels almost like we hold a multi-year grudge against them.

My son has a bow. If I saw him use it in an unsafe manner, I would take it away from him and not permit him to use it until he demonstrates he can consistently use it safely. I would not take out a knife and cut some permanent mark on the riser that would be a constant reminder to him in future years that he was previously irresponsible when he was younger.

What do we cut off the scout(er) that accidentally violates the YPT?

What do we say to the scout that catches an adult doing something wrong or incorrect when they ask us what they get to cut off of ours?

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

but anyone who has been a pledge for a fraternity/sorority knows what hazing truly is. Anyone who has been to a service academy, or been through boot camp knows what hazing truly is. 

I've been in two frats and through Army Airborne boot camp (which was easy compared to the treatment I received at my actual Airborne Infantry unit) and while I would agree that there are certainly worse forms of hazing but also know that the severity of one doesn't invalidate the other.

From 2013:

Ask the Expert: Is cutting corners off the Totin’ Chip allowed?

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2013/08/13/ask-the-expert-is-cutting-corners-off-the-totin-chip-allowed/

Note the first comment:

Well looks like for Cub Scouts, Cutting Corners from the Whittling Chip is now forbidden. Page 69 of the 2017 BALOO Syllabus states:

"Describe how the Whittling Chip, if revoked, must be re-earned as a complete unit in order to again carry and use a pocketknife. The corners cannot be cut off from the Whittling Chip for infractions—the certificate must be treated as a single entity."

-------------------------

I would think that any action that leaves the card permanently damaged both unnecessary and probably a form of hazing. Once the scout has completed the actions necessary to earn the privilege to have a knife again, the card will still bear the cut. A cub scout version of a scarlet letter for a past infraction.

2 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

earned 3 ranks in the last 3 months

They didn't. It was a promotional photo. Read the comments on the link.

6 hours ago, an_old_DC said:

why doesn't your pack follow BSA requirements for early adopter packs? You can't have a den of one girl. Where are the other girls in your pack?

So imagine for a moment if you will. You are a father of a child that wishes to join scouts and there is not a pack in your area. You contact your District leadership and inquire about any packs that plan to open up to your child and they tell you they are considering the option. You wait a few weeks and you contact them again and nothing has developed. You contact them again a few weeks later (it is now late February early March) and they tell you that no packs in your area will be open for your child. So now you widen your search. You ask that same leadership team if there are packs in another district that might accept your child. You are told that there might be one in another district, 30-40 minutes away, two counties over. You look up that pack on the internet and you make contact.

That pack replies that they are indeed open to accepting your child. You are excited. Your child is excited. You inquire about the first meetings so you can start blocking off your calendar. You are told that they are still working on getting organized but that more information will be following soon. You wait a week and check again as to the status of the den and there is no confirmation yet from other girls but are told that some are considering. In the meantime, you are asked if you are willing to lead this effort and in your desire to make sure this is a success, you consent to be the Den Leader. You are told to apply online for your scout and yourself and you get started on planning. Another week goes by and still no other girls have joined. That is where we basically are today.

Keep in mind, I am just a parent that within the past few weeks, volunteered to lead this effort with a pack we just joined in a completely different district. If the council and the district has a problem with this pack not having more girls per the rules, that is between them, the pack, and the CO - and well above my paygrade. I have enough on my plate trying to develop a good Webelos program with very little time left in the year.

30 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Luckily current generation of scouts do not realize the iphone is in fact a phone

In light of the communication requirements, I would think phone calls to be prohibited since you cannot easily incorporate another adult in the conversation. I tell my scout to always email and copy me. It also gives us a record of his outgoing communication. For some reason, we have a real hard time with getting adults to be responsible in replying to email so by him sending such, he has a record of his attempts. He recently emailed a Nova Counselor to start one of the projects and after their initial reply with agreeing to help, his last three emails to them have gone unanswered.

10 hours ago, Thunderbird said:

The standard for Cub Scouts is "Do Your Best".  It sounds like she's in a den by herself?  Perhaps the best answer for your daughter is to do the requirements with another den.  It's not her fault that she's the only member of her den, so do what's best for the Scout and do it with another den (if another den is available and willing).

Agreed, but on the flip side, we violate the other tenet of coed scouting in that the other boy-only den didn't sign up or agree to a girl joining all of their den meetings. We will be doing some activities with them (by invite) but I am cautious about our intrusion. We are going to try and take advantage of the opportunities we have with them and perhaps do multiple den-only requirements when we are with them.

3 hours ago, an_old_DC said:

if you are writing about your daughter, then your pack isn't doing "early adopter" right.

Ya? Ya think?

1 hour ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think the BSA agrees with me.

And as a father of almost a Lone Cub Scout now, I can certainly relate as many of the activities and requirements are geared around a Den or a Pack.

We worked on Maestro over the weekend and found the requirements basically impossible without a Den/Pack:

Do two of the following:
a. Teach your den the words and melody of a song. Perform the song with your den at your den or pack meeting.
b. Create original words for a song. Perform it at your den or pack meeting.
c. Collaborate with your den to compose a den theme song. Perform it at your pack meeting.
d. Write a song with words and music that expresses your feelings about an issue, a person, something you are learning, a point of the Scout Law, etc. Perform it at your den or pack meeting, alone or with a group.
e. Perform a musical number by yourself or with your Webelos den in front of an audience.

----------------------

Only one we can do as written is (e). There are of course a myriad of other Adventures that are worded the same way.

"Liberated" from the Bryan's forum because the forum is effectively walking dead (and I am hopeful it gets a quicker response here as I want to know too):

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/forums/topic/national-outdoor-awards-auspices-boy-scouts-america/

Okay, in reality, I think what that phrase “under the auspices of the Boy Scouts of America” means is reasonably clear and I’ve always taken it to include patrol, troop, district, council, or national activities. Yet….

Look at the hiking award. The phrase is in requirement 4:

Complete 100 miles of hiking, backpacking, snowshoeing, or cross country skiing under the auspices of the Boy Scouts of America, including miles hiked as part of requirements 2 and 3.

Requirement 2 include, of course, the Hiking merit badge. Which actually does not require that the hikes be “under the auspices of the Boy Scouts of America.”

I’ll continue to interpret this the way I always have, and I’m not going to require boys to suddenly complete the Hiking or Backpacking to be only BSA activities, and I hope the BSA won’t suddenly decide to make that a requirement for those badges as it would be significant hurdle. I’d actually like to see the “under the auspices of the Boy Scouts of America” relaxed or removed for those awards as some of my scouts have a lot of non-BSA hiking mileage.

-------------------------

Do the hiking miles for the Hiking Merit Badge require they be done via an organized BSA hike? If they don't and you are a Hiking MBC, what verification do you require from the scout to grant them credit for their hikes?

Ooh, me first...

"Experience is the hardest teacher. It gives the test first, then the lesson."

Ha!

I really like the quote. It may not be "motivational" but it strongly fits with our family motto of "Be Kind and Persevere."

I wonder why no official announcement anywhere on this. I would think it would be a big deal on the various blogs.

1 hour ago, SB_Eagle said:

Reminds me of all the Chuck Norris jokes...

Chuck Norris has a bear rug in his tent.  The bear is actually alive, but it's just too scared to move..

Vin Diesel is so tough that when this style of jokes first originated with him, people found them too believable so they change them to Chuck Norris jokes to make them funny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Norris_facts

13 hours ago, qwazse said:

@Hawkwin, do you know if the boys were in the same patrol? It looks like it from the patches that we can see.

Yes, in our area, dens cross over as a single patrol. Occasionally, if a single scout crosses over or a small den crosses over, then they will be combined with an exist patrol.

My son's Troop (son not pictured); Tiger to Eagle as a group.

Eagle Scouts remake photo taken 10 years earlier as Cub Scouts

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/01/05/eagle-scouts-remake-photo-taken-10-years-earlier-as-cub-scouts/

Wow...

Quote

Water balloons, meanwhile, have a size limit: “For water balloons, use small, biodegradable balloons, and fill them no larger than a ping pong ball.” (Page 100)

Why even have a water balloon if they have to be that small? Can a balloon that small even pop consistently? Either really small balloons or the rubber would have barely stretched with such little water.

I didn't see Tomahawk toss on either list of permitted or banned activities. Where does BSA stand on such? I think we have one annually at least at one of our camporees.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Another proposal I would personally suggest from my experiences in scouting is stop the den group crossovers and start sending boys to the troops by age or completion of Webelos rank requirements. This would end the need for NSPs and Troop Guides. 

@The Latin Scot  does it this way too IIRC. I was intrigued by that change and I too think there would be some benefit in this. In hindsight, I think my son would be better integrated with the Troop and that the patrol method would likely have worked better during his 1st year.

17 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

But otherwise, support your COR's scouting program and help make it better.

How common is it for a COR to have both a pack and a troop? In my area, it doesn't seem that common. We have about 5-10 packs (all with various CORs) organized geographically by elementary schools and just two troops - one of which is organized by a church (I don't know how the other is organized).

My pack went "troop shopping" because we really had no other choice. Our Troop has scouts from at least three separate high school systems, and probably a dozen different intermediate and middle schools.

While switching troops is certainly an option, I wonder how many scouts simply quit before even considering that option. A bad troop experience is probably enough to ruin scout for more scouts.