Pale Horse

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

At some point unbelief will push its way into taking god out of the program completely and debating values into nonexistence. Freedom of speech also means owning a stand on values and principles.

Ah the old belief that only those who believe in a god can have values.  Pray tell, which values are exclusive to theists? And among theists is there universal agreement about these values?

That was rhetorical; the answers are None and No.

7 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

As it is, according to the article they've already made $6,000 and are on track to get to $10,000.  I'm not sure trying to make more money would really be a good idea.

Why? 

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

That's never good

Depends, some fictional members actually paid registration.

8 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

I think it means no more than it says.  if you believe I have quoted out of context, by all means supply the context rather than your opinion.  

This thread, including any opinions I might post,  is not the official "word" of BSA.

Refer to my post from 1/23/19 @ 6:04a.m. in which I supplied the relevant information from GTSS.

I realize your opinion is not the "official word of BSA" which is why I supplied the information to correct your incorrect opinion.

2 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

Age Guidelines 

The Boy Scouts of America has established the following guidelines for its members’ participation in camping activities:

• Overnight camping by Lion, Tiger, Wolf, or Bear Cub Scouts as dens is prohibited. Webelos dens may participate in overnight camping.
• Lions, with their adult partner, may participate in child-parent excursions, pack overnighters, and council-organized family camping.
• Tigers, with their adult partner, may participate in child-parent excursions, day camps, pack overnighters, council-organized family camping, or resident camping.
• Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scouts, and Webelos Scouts may participate in a resident overnight camping program operating under BSA National Camping School–trained leadership and managed by the council.
• Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the youth on approved trips.

Yeah, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. 

If you think that quote is requiring all parents to attend camping activities, you should keep reading: both the next couple paragraphs of GTSS and the rest of this thread which clear up any confusion.

Essentially a grant isn't a donation. It's a payment for an act or service to be completed, just in a less direct manner than hiring someone to specifically perform that service. The unit is just acting in a pass-through capacity in receiving the funds and then distributing them in performance of the Grantor's desired benefit.

13 minutes ago, elitts said:

The way I always explained this to parents when I was Cubmaster was:

On any council or pack camp-out, every scout (past tiger) must have a parent or guardian along who is responsible specifically for them.  If the child's actual parent or guardian can not attend, they can be placed in the care of some other parent or guardian, but at all times there must be some adult along who is specifically responsible for them.   So your scout can be here with mom or dad, or they can be here with Timmy's mom or dad, but they can not just be dropped off for "whoever" (Cubmaster) to take care of.

Correct.

6 hours ago, Navybone said:

I am not sure you are reading it right or maybe in totality.  It does not specifically say parents are not required for wolf and bear.  It also says “ 

• Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the youth on approved trips.

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/

Right, "expected to" does not mean "required to". That's in no way saying that they must attend. If you read it like that, none of the Bears could attend a campout if the Bear Den leader can't make it, even if you had every other den and pack leader.

If you continue reading you will see:

Quote

Council-Organized Family Camp

Council-organized family camps are overnight events involving more than one pack. The local council provides all of the elements of the outdoor experience, such as staffing, food service, housing, and program. These are often referred to as parent/pal or adventure weekends. Council-organized family camps should be conducted by trained leaders at sites approved by the local council. Each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian.

In special circumstances, a Cub Scout whose parent or legal guardian is not able to attend an overnight camping trip may participate under the supervision of another registered adult member of the BSA who is a parent of a Cub Scout who is also attending. The unit leader and a parent or legal guardian must agree to the arrangement, and all Youth Protection policies apply. At no time may another adult accept responsibility for more than one additional “non-family member” youth.

Pack Overnighters

These are pack-organized overnight events involving more than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout activities and conducted at council-approved locations (councils use Pack Overnight Campout Site Appraisal Form, No. 430-902 ). If nonmembers (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to accommodate them. BSA Health and Safety and Youth Protection policies apply. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO, No. 34162) to properly understand the importance of program intent, Youth Protection policies, health and safety, site selection, age-appropriate activities, and sufficient adult participation.

"In most cases" also means that at times a youth will not be under the supervision of a parent or guardian.  This is expressly stating that there will be camping trips in which a parent of Scout are not in attendance.

12 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

That is what the BSA rules expressly require - in so many words.  

NO.  BSA rules do not require a parent or guardian unless the Scout is a Tiger or Lion.  Refer to Guide to Safe Scouting which @T2Eagle quoted above.  Councils are able to set their own requirements at Council Events, but that is not a BSA rule and cannot be enforced at non-council events.

1 hour ago, David CO said:

My Chartered Organization would not normally approve of having a scout from our unit left at camp with people from a different unit.  We would want the scout to remain in our camp site. 

I don't think your CO would get much say in the matter. The Scout was removed from their care/custody by the parent and placed under the care of another willing individual/unit. I don't see how your CO could stop that if they wanted to. 

30 minutes ago, ValleyBoy said:

I broke the cub scout camping rules when I allowed my son to stay over night at the campout without a family member being present at the campout.  Would I do the same thing again today in the same situation, yes I would. 

Unless the rules have changed since 17 years ago (and I can't believe they would have changed to be less restrictive), unless your son was a Tiger, there is no requirement that a parent must stay with a Scout on an overnight trip.

1 minute ago, Navybone said:

Good comment, thank you.  I would strongly urge any MBC working with youth to err on the side of caution.  Be it a male or female scout. 

 

Yes, I agree on the need to err on the side of caution. But I'd also question the appropriateness of refusing to work with a Scout based on that Scout's gender, race,  or religion.  That said, it's still a free country and we have the ability to associate freely with whom we wish. 

24 minutes ago, robert12 said:

This sounds like the changes that the Northern Star Council has implemented.

 

 

Yes it does. I'm wondering if this is another council taking this terrible approach. Sure hope it's not gaining ground.

Which council are you in?

I can just imagine the outrage (rightfully so) if someone were to come on here and say " What our pack really needs is some good Den Moms to make us snacks and clean up after us. Sure, us men could do our own cooking and cleaning, but we really don't want to." 

We're teaching life skills and part of that is self-reliance. Relying or expecting someone else to do it just because they're a certain gender is counter-productive.

1 hour ago, jsychk said:

Pale Horse:  Is it mandatory for parents to retain full control over the scout's account by the BSA? 

 

Yes

1 hour ago, elitts said:

They didn't actually associate "strong" with either male or female.  They used it as an additional descriptor for both genders.  So you can have a strong male or female leader, or a weak one.  My reading was that "strong" in this context is used to describe "someone who puts together an adventurous and substantial program" and is in contrast to the described "weak" leader that cancels activities regularly and whiffs on requirements.

 

Now, they did specify a need for a male leader, but that's one of those points where personal opinion is legitimate IMO.  I know that while I wouldn't tell a female who wanted to be a leader "No", all else being equal, I'd prefer to have a male leader over a female one at both Cubs and Scouts levels.  Mostly because having a "mom" figure around changes the dynamic.

Jsychk most certainly did associate strong leadership as the realm of males. 

The one strong leader female example was grudging given praise as "getting by".

To quote: "Last year, the Webelos II had 1 strong dad who took the responsibility of leading the boys and providing a rich program... Moms were there to support by decorating the B&G venue, helping with the food, etc,. I think this is what a Pack should look like."  This is explicitly stating that men make better leaders and women are ok to "help setup".

1 hour ago, jsychk said:

To tell you the truth, I just think our den lacks of a real male leader,

Please don't associate being a strong leader with being male or female. It's incredibly sexist.

41 minutes ago, jsychk said:

Firestone: Yes, you can set up to allow the parents to view but not edit. 

As of the update last fall, parents retain full control over their Scout's accounts and have the ability to edit advancement. It cannot be removed by an admin. It's still up to the Den Leader/Advancement Chair to approve the awards. If you have concerns about them being completed, don't approve them.

8 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

“To the extent permitted by applicable law, I hereby consent to and authorize the Boy Scouts of America and/or its subsidiaries, affiliates, other related entities, successors, and/or assigns (the “Company”) to procure consumer report(s), which may include criminal background check(s) and/or investigative consumer report(s), on my background from a consumer reporting agency (“CRA”) or from an investigative consumer reporting agency (“ICRA”), as described in the Background Check Disclosure (which I have received separately from the Company), as well as these Additional Disclosures & Background Check Authorization. I have reviewed and understand the information, statements, and notices in the Background Check Disclosure, as well as these Additional Disclosures & Background Check Authorization. My authorization remains valid throughout my volunteer relationship with the Company, such that, to the extent permitted by applicable law, I agree Company can procure additional consumer report(s), which may include criminal background check(s), during my volunteer relationship without providing additional disclosures or obtaining additional authorizations. Except as otherwise prohibited by applicable law, I consent to and authorize the Company to share this information with Company’s current or prospective clients, customers, others with a need to know, and/or their agents for business reasons (e.g., to place me in certain positions, work sites, etc.). I understand that, if I am selected for a volunteer position, a consumer report will have been conducted on me.”

Here's the wording from the printed application (2018 Printing). If someone can point to the change that's causing the uproar, I'd appreciate it.  Is it because some of the people who have been registered since the 70's and haven't had a background check since then now do? That doesn't seem like a bad thing.

Quote

To the extent permitted by applicable law, I hereby consent to and authorize Boy Scouts of America and/or its subsidiaries, affiliates, other related entities, successors, and/or assigns (the “Company”), to procure consumer report(s), which may include criminal background check(s) and/or investigative consumer report(s) (as defined by applicable California law), on my background from a consumer reporting agency (“CRA”) or from an investigative consumer reporting agency (“ICRA”), as described in the Background Check Disclosure and the Additional Disclosures (all of which I have received separately from the Company). I have reviewed and understand the information, statements, and notices in the Background Check Disclosure and the Additional Disclosures, as well as this Background Check Authorization. My authorization remains valid throughout my volunteer relationship with the Company, such that, to the extent permitted by applicable law, I agree Company can procure additional consumer report(s), which may include criminal background check(s), during my volunteer relationship without providing additional disclosures or obtaining additional authorizations. Except as otherwise prohibited by applicable law, I consent to and authorize the Company to share this information with Company’s current or prospective clients, customers, others with a need to know, and/or their agents for business reasons (e.g., to place me in certain positions, work sites, etc.). I understand that, if I am selected for a volunteer position, a consumer report will have been conducted on me.

21 minutes ago, le Voyageur said:

You're being way too defensive, nor do you appear wanting to accept that others have experiences that you find distasteful being that they conflict with your world view....nor, is it a "massive generalization" since this was the way it was during this era.  Sadly, I lack a "wayback machine" to provide you with a tour of these times, the 50's and 60's  where the gender dividing lines were real and absolute. 

To be fair, I don't think the gender divides of the 50's and 60's was isolated to any one religion in particular.

3 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world/the-family-a-proclamation-to-the-world?lang=eng

Thanks for the link, still struggling to understand what in there leads to the belief that they can't Scout together. 

13 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

It's about the fact that boys and girls are fundamentally different. But including girls in Scouting sends a message that boys and girls learn in the same way, and are for all intents and purposes identical. While the sexes are equal to each other in worth and importance, they are still DIFFERENT. So treating them in Scouting as though the learn in exactly the same way isn't quite aligned with the way we understand the divine differences between men and women. 

I know next to nothing about the Mormon religion. Can you expand on these fundamental differences between the sexes that demand they not be co-mingled? Do Mormon children go to single-sex schools? 

21 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

...where this is included is clunky in the report so I expect more experienced Wiki users will continue to edit.  

The change to include reference to the mortgage is nowhere near significant enough for inclusion in the opening paragraph.  It will be at the minimum moved to a blurb at the end, but more likely deleted.  The Wiki admins don't mess around.

1 hour ago, desertrat77 said:

From Ministrywatch.com:

"The mortgage is held by JP Morgan Chase Bank.  The terms of the deal are complex and depend on a number of factors..."

Then they probably should have consulted a real-estate attorney to explain it to them instead of publishing a story they don't understand. This transaction appears to be nothing more than updating and increasing the Line of Credit that BSA has been able to draw upon (with Philmont being the collateral) since 2010.

On 10/16/2019 at 2:06 PM, Cubmaster Pete said:

While I am fine with that, it takes adults to run that, especially at the Cub level. Most of my parents are have Fundraiser fatigue (we had 4 this year)

The solution to that is, don't do 4 fundraisers. Do one and do it right.  Plan big, hit your goal and be done with it.