Pale Horse

17 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

As an LDS pack, we move our boys up to Scouts BSA based on age (on their 11th birthday), not the school year.

Sorry for the slight derail.  With the Church no longer chartering packs will the LDS method of promoting to next rank upon birthday continue (or be allowed)? Or will all Scouts be required to follow the more traditional approach of promotion at end of school year?

1 hour ago, Onslow said:

I smell a little fudge.

Based on what? Bias? Jealousy?

Without trying to dredge up an argument on a 6 year old thread, a couple things stood out to me. *Disclaimer* I am not an expert on either award (especially the GSUSA Gold Award). These points are based on my current understanding, please correct me if I'm mistaken (I'm sure someone will).

1. Because of the nature on how BSA rank works vs GSUSA's advancement structure, you must include all the BSA rank requirements (including Scout-Life requirements) in reflecting on the full process of earning Eagle.

2. Is there really a Cookie requirement to earn Gold? 

7 hours ago, Scoutero0 said:

Girl Scouts- Gold Award requirements (according to Girl Scouts.org)

- must participate in the Fall Product and Cookie Programs, and earn the participation patches for both programs.

On 1/22/2019 at 3:33 PM, mrkstvns said:

One of my favorite campouts as a kid was to Camp Rock Enon in Gore, Virginia. What I liked best about that trip was that we didn't sleep in tents --- they had these log-cabin lean-to shelters called Adirondacks and a whole patrol could sleep together in one.  Wonder if they still have those Adirondacks....

We just booked Rock Enon. Really looking forward to it. Not so much the 7.5 hour drive.

We're starting our popcorn season early.  I'm sure everyone who's cool with Jason Mamoa Somoas will also like to purchase a bag of my Sofia Vergara Jalapeno Cheddar Cheese Popcorn. It's Hot, Hot, Hot! if I do say so myself.

Sorry, the name isn't as catchy as Momoa Samoas, but at least she's fully dressed compared to the picture of him on the cookie box. Don't think mine violates any copyrights or trademarks either.

These arguments always arise because of vague postings.

OP, if you want meaningful responses then provide details about what happened.  

On 7/26/2018 at 3:42 PM, CNYScouter said:

Camp Yawgoog in Rockville, Rhode Island has an excellent WEBELOS summer camp program.

Some things I liked about the program was the time given to the Scouts.

Most days they ate lunch early at the camp site and not in the dinning hall. While everyone else was eating lunch they had archery and Shooting range (BB guns) to themselves

I also liked that they put them WEBELOS first. They were put up front marching into any campfires/nighttime shows....and sat in the front row at these

They had their own cheer. Staffers had to cheer with them when they did it at meal time.

The staff was good. There was always at least 5 staff in camp to supervise the scouts

 

 

Thanks for the suggestion. This one's definitely in the running.  I like the fact it's a true week-long experience, and not these 3 day ones that start on the evening of day 1 and end before noon of day 3 to avoid the 72 hour rule.

Little bit of a road-trip from Michigan, but that's part of the adventure.

6 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

The only tag along siblings I have are other leaders kids.  I kinda have to deal with it I guess.  One sibling is a Lion.  Two others are not even old enough for that. 

 

Our recruiting sucked this year.  The DE went to some Join Scout Nights, and another district committee member went to other.  We (the Pack) we not allowed to speak, just smile and wave.  District representative did all the talking.  They took their $11 for national.  So, the next week we lost a lot when they finally got to hear about our program and oh there are dues.  This year we are going to have an event for the community before JSN to pretty much show off and let people see what we do.  

I've seen this type of comment before. Some people seem to be operating under the impression they are subservient to the DE/District reps.  They are in no position to dictate how you run your Pack events, or whether you are allowed to speak. Don't invite them to JSN, problem solved.

6 hours ago, Ranman328 said:

Please show me where I said that!!!!

Dude! Please tell me you're joking.

Ranman328:  Posts something.

DavidCO: Quotes your post in his reply.

Ranman328: "Tell me where I said that."

lol

2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

If “It’s a Wonderful Life” is a Christmas movie, then Die Hard and Gremlins are as well.  Case closed!

Merry Christmas!

 

I agree...that none of the above are Christmas movies.

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/wonderful-life-isnt-actually-christmas-film

8 hours ago, JoeBob said:

Merry Christmas, y'all! 

I put this in the 'Issues and Politics' forum...

...favorite Christmas movie with daddy : 'Die Hard'. 

I&P is definitely the right place for this thread, because Die Hard is NOT a Christmas movie.

In order to be a Christmas movie, it needs to be about Christmas, or Christmas needs to be integral to the story.  Just because a movie takes place near the holidays, doesn't cut it.  In Die Hard, for example, the only thing "Christmasy" was that they were there for a Christmas party.  Change it so that they were there celebrating "Nancy in Accounting's" retirement and the story is the same.

11 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

A believer holds that right and wrong have always been and always will be

I specifically wanted to focus on this line.  How do you reconcile evolving church positions (even within the same denomination) on such topics as homosexuality, birth control, etc.?  If it was wrong 50 years ago, how can they say it's ok now?  

5 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

I can answer that, though an internet forum with strangers over the web is a poor place for a meaningful discussion about matters as profound as this. But there is a difference.

An atheist believes that right and wrong must be determined by mankind. As such, there can be no right and wrong until there are people to say they exist. The duty of man, therefore, is to determine what he believes is morally acceptable and what is morally unacceptable, and to live his life according to what he perceives those ideals to be. What those ideals are will vary from person to person according to their own experiences and judgements.

A believer holds that right and wrong have always been and always will be, and that they are revealed to mankind by a Creator who sees more than we can see and knows more than we know, and so is in a legitimate position to make judgements that will benefit humanity. Concepts of morality are not created by, but rather given to, man, and so there is an absolute standard to which he dedicates his life.

There is a great difference. But what we share is that we want to do what is right. How we define that, and just what "right" is, vary, but we can work together to ensure that we all do our best, and that we are forgiving when we fail. That's humanity at its best, whatever you believe. Scouting does it one way. Perhaps you want to do it in another. Let's try to help and uplift one another, rather than try to tear each other down. 

Thanks for attempting, i'm not looking for the theoretic rationale on how we think each other thinks though.  I'm more interested in an example of what an atheist believes is an example of right and wrong that varies from what a Theist believes.  

But as @Eagledadmentioned in an earlier post, something "big picture", something meaningful, not that eating meat on Friday is wrong, or working on a particular day of the week is taboo. 

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

If you are asking at the global level; history shows that the pendulum eventually swings away from extremist back toward god.

If you are asking the scout level; scouts control their interpretation of god.

Quote from previous post:

Well, it's a bit more complex than that, but yes, determining right and wrong at cultural level has to come from god. 

I believe youth learn most of their discernment from observing the role models in their community.

Humility is the source of intended good while pride is the source of intended bad. Man by nature is undisciplined and prideful and their selfishness drives them drive toward intended bad. On the other hand, teaches man to live by the intent of humility. A disciplined community of humble role models can only come from god guidance because man's natural selfishness and pride will never agree on a community of humble actions. Not without force anyway. Force is not humility.

The creators of the Scouting movement thought much the same. Otherwise why would they give scouts the Oath and Law to direct their behavior if they already had the habits of determining right and wrong?

There is a consistent stand of god, just not a constant following. As for duty to county, there are many actions that support duty to country, one being service projects. Also respect of the political system, armed forces and so on. 

Barry

Since you can't answer the 2 questions posed, I'll consider this discussion over.

Due to lack of response, I submit that there is no difference in the views of Atheist and Theists in what is right and wrong.  Further, the establishment of a benchmark to determine an "acceptable" level of Duty to God without a comparable Duty to Country benchmark is hypocritical to say the least. 

13 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Most humans are followers, so societal influence sets the standard of right and wrong. That is either god or the human who holds the biggest stick. God doesn't change, but man elects leaders every 4 years.

Your generalizing doesn't advance an intellectual discussion. Shesh.

Religion puts integrity and commonality in the virtues of the Oath and Law. Without religion, the scout is subject to whatever the SM feels is right or wrong in the moment. Without the consistent standard of god, the program of building character could not have last 110 years. And it certainly wouldn't have lasted as just a youth camping program. 

In 99 percent of scouting, the scout sets the religious benchmark of his experience. The one percent is usually the bad acting by adults we discuss on this forum.

Barry

God doesn't change, just man's flawed interpretation of him?  How is that any different?

You accuse me of generalizing?  How do I generalize?  You're the one that's generalizing by saying atheist are somehow unable to determine right and wrong.  So again, I ask...What do you think is different about what an Atheist believes is "right and wrong" and what a Theist believes to be "right and wrong"?  

There is no consistent standard of god...standards vary by religion; even within the same religion there are wildly varying standards.  Also, again...why set a religious benchmark, but not one for duty to country?

2 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

Just like religions have a different definition of "the right thing to do."

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Not really, not in the big picture anyway. The problem with religions on the micro scale is they let the devil get into the details.

OK then, let's play this game... What do you think is different about what an Atheist believes is "right and wrong" and what a Theist believes to be "right and wrong"?  "Big Picture" as you say, I'm pretty sure Atheists and Theists can both agree on right and wrong.  Just as much as a Protestant and a Catholic could, I guess.  

Should we even bring up the Westboro Baptist Church?  Just so sad that you'd gladly accept a member of that "church" to join, but are opposed to my family joining.

2 hours ago, Pale Horse said:

I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any Scouts convening directly with their creator to know which version of the truth is right.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Why would they, they have the Oath and Law.

So if the Oath and Law are sufficient, why do we need religion?  How I fulfill my "Duty to God" is not your concern.  Is there a similar benchmark for Duty to Country?  Is simply not breaking the law sufficient?  Maybe only children of military veterans.  Or how about a point system where you get X amount of points for reciting the pledge of allegiance, marching in a parade, etc.  

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

A "the right thing to do" program will not be boy run because the scouts will have to wait for the adults to tell them the right or wrong behavior. Kind of scary since every adult likely has some different definition of "the right thing to do". 

Just like religions have a different definition of "the right thing to do."

I could be wrong, but I'm not aware of any Scouts convening directly with their creator to know which version of the truth is right.

What's more scary to me is that you feel Scouts, or people in general, don't have the ability to determine right and wrong without relying on a book.

Option B, and it shouldn't be a "last resort"; it should be first step of next infraction.  I understand not wanting to punish their kids, but in your efforts to keep these 2 Scouts from the problem families, the troop has lost more Scouts & Scouters.  Allowing them to remain is going to kill your Troop...or any semblance of a youth-led patrol method Troop.

Lay out the new rules for the parents, explain the rationale, and the consequences.  Tell the problem parents that they have used up all their strikes; next offense and they will be shown the door.

8 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

It means, without god, all judgment is by man. Since man often disagrees with their neighbor, there is no objective guidance for behavior.

Barry

Even among Christians, all professed to believe in the same God, there is extreme subjectivity in what is constitutes appropriate thoughts, attitudes, and behaviour.

1 hour ago, Cambridgeskip said:

I can't speak for Canada but in the UK the position is that atheists are entirely welcome. There is an atheist version of the promise but it is just one of 4 different versions which reflect different religious beliefs. You can read them all here.

That does not mean duty to God has been dropped entirely. Exploration of your own beliefs is still part of the program but they do not have to be religious.

I don't know what other groups are like but probably around 60-70% of my new scouts choose one the of the faith based version of the promise with 30-40% making the no faith version

In your opinion, is the Scouting experience diminished for those who choose the "no faith" version?

12 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

First of all, I think it strange and perhaps somewhat insensitive to group atheists and Jehovah's Witness together; they are as utterly different in their beliefs (or lack thereof) as any two groups can be. Secondly, Duty to God is an integral, inherent part of Scouting - if you remove that element of its composition, in my book, it will cease to be Scouting, regardless of what organization (even the BSA if it comes to that) may claim to be running it. The Scouting program and its methods, as created by Baden-Powell and build up by the likes of Seton, Beard and Hillcourt, is a religious program, yet at the same time absolutely non-denominational. That's one of the wonders of its foundation, and it has worked beautifully for generations. But remove that central core of duty to God, and ... well, in my book, it's no longer Scouting, and it's no longer going to work. That's not being judgemental - that's integrity. But upholding a standard of membership is not discourteous. If you are looking for a totally non-religious organization to take you camping and teach you life-skills, Scouting isn't for you - but there are many other good and supportive organizations who can help. Look for one that already suits you rather than change the one that suits somebody else.

So in your opinion, Scouts Canada, and Scouts UK isn't "real" Scouting?  Getting so tired of hearing that atheists don't have a moral compass or that religious people have some moral superiority. 

It's possible to teach morals, values and duty to fellow man without believing in god.  I'd much rather teach my son to help others because it's the right thing to do instead of being good out of fear that an invisible sky man is going to smite him. 

2 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

If the BSA files a bankruptcy petition, I wouldn't expect their salary structure for entry-level professionals to improve anytime soon.

No, I would think not.

I'm not familiar with how much discretion individual councils have in that regard either.

2 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

While this is bound to rustle some jimmies, that starts with the DE. But national doesn't put much stock into us anymore because of the insane turnover rate. 

The insane turnover rate is fueled, I'm sure, by the long hours and low pay.  If they started investing in and rewarding quality DEs, the problem would solve itself.

9 hours ago, swilliams said:

 At this point, it's really freaking tempting to have my son do the requirements and hand him the Arrow patch whether it's officially recognized, or not.

You do realize you don't need to be a Lone Scout to work on requirements outside of Den Meetings?

Do the requirements, have your son talk to his Den Leader about them and get them signed off.   

20 minutes ago, Scoutmaster Teddy said:

The weed was only the latest. Selling weed INSIDE of a school is not good. He has plenty of other offenses, including a profanity-laced tirade against a ASM. Poor kid has affluenza since Daddy is a bigshot.

He will get his conference. I will not sign his Eagle paperwork. 

I have two Eagle Scouts threatening to return their badges.

Perfectly acceptable. To me, the disrespect to the ASM and pattern of behaviour is far worse, imo, than getting caught up for simple possession (I missed the fact he was selling).