ianwilkins

13 minutes ago, gblotter said:

For co-ed Scouting program, perhaps that is true. Many boys don’t last long at all (as reflected in the low percentages of UK Scouting and Scouts Canada). In the single-gender BSA program, there seems to be evidence for a formula where more boys can last longer without the distractions of the gender issues I have listed.

Nothing scientifically based in my observations,, but perhaps the numbers speak fir themselves.

As I have mentioned in a previous post ... when people choose to ignore or dismiss these truths about differences between boys and girls (insisting that they function the same as in single-gender environments), it is the boys who suffer most because they will ultimately step-back or opt-out altogether. Or in your words “the handful that do turn up don’t last long at all.” I see strength in a single-gender solution that fosters greater participation from boys.

Some food for thought.

If I understood what you're saying, yes, it would be food for thought. Something lost in translation I think, sorry for my lack of understanding. I think what 'Skip is saying is that when he does get drama queens, of either gender, turning up, they either change/act differently, as his troop is not the place for drama, or they leave, for the same reasons. The rest of the kids just carry on in scouting. Why kids leave in the UK is for all sorts of reasons, not sure many of them are gender related. I have no evidence either way though.

Yes, boys and girls are different, but you know what? Boys and boys are different too. So you treat them all the same, differently, depending on the sort of kid they are. 

I've looked at that link, and it seems once again we're not just "two countries separated by a common language". They look more like what we'd call drop scones, or maybe scotch pancakes, and it might just be me, but serving it with sausage [shudder].

Pancakes, proper pancakes, as I know them (so they must be right), are more like a French crepe, simply served with lemon juice and sugar. Though I have developed a taste for chocolate spread (proper chocolate by the way), or nutella, and maybe whipped cream, or a bit of toffee sauce, fruit, and other fancy ways. UK tradition is just lemon juice* and sugar.

This post was brought to you along with my application to the Diplomatic Corps. and in the interests of mutual international understanding. I hope their fundraiser goes well.

* Do you have those little lemon shaped bottles of lemon juice in the states? We did pancakes at Explorers last week, luckily I took some proper lemons as I don't know how old this bottle we had was, but the juice had turned brown and refused to come out of the little hole in the top. I guess it may have been past its best before date.

If you are on that facebook, post the same request on 1st Facebook Scout Group. I'm not its biggest fan but for this type of request you should get plenty of responses.

40 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Interesting to put in something about the Scout law.  IMHO while in theory correct, the challenge is that this is not what many of the Boys and Leaders signed up for.  BSA National has substantially changed the rules of the game.  To put out that if one does not support this one is not upholding the Scout Oath and Law is not really accurate

If you agree to be involved in something (job / purchase / volunteer), are committed and then someone from outside what you are doing says you have to do that plus all this other stuff, that changes what you agreed to get involved with and by that same token, your interest.  If you agree to buy a house, then as you go to purchase you learn that the current owner is going to continue to store stuff in the back yard and access that for his business, you may walk away as that may not be what you signed up for.

It's not really the same though is it? Having been there at the start of Explorer Scouts in the UK when all sections went co-ed (as opposed to just Ventures previously), I've seen the type of girl that is brave enough to come along and be in a unit or troop with no other girls, they are more than happy to do everything that's expected of them, to do all the activities available to them, they want to throw themselves into it, they want to be part of it. Anyone suggesting the programme got watered down for them would have got very short shrift. So it didn't really change, if it doesn't really change, why stop doing it? And this is co-ed troops, and patrols, which you may not even have. I.e. stick around, see what happens, and then, if you're not enjoying it, leave, don't leave in case you're not going to enjoy it.

21 minutes ago, cocomax said:

The real question is when the girls join the troops and we go co-ed, will the boys stick around?  Will the boys still find it fun?  As leaders we can do everything right, but if the boys are not having fun they will leave.   I don't talk to the boys in our troop about the girls joining, but they know from the news and guys at school teasing them about it and I have overheard them talking about it and they all have decided to walk away if it happens.  My other question is why do the boys feel this way?  I honestly do not know.  Are most boys fine with girls joining and the boys in our troop just strange, I don't know.

This is what I don't get. Maybe, if they give it a go, and everyone approaches it in a positive manner, then it could easily still be fun, and they don't need to give up something they enjoy at all. "Leaving" is the same as "giving up", surely there's something in the scout law about that. After all, Venture Crews have fun right? My Explorer Scouts have fun too. The girls will probably surprise them, I'd imagine the first intake are going to be super keen, what's not to like about that? To leave without giving it a go seems, well, what would you say if a kid didn't want to try rock climbing in case they were scared of heights, but didn't know if they were? You'd encourage, cajole, enthuse, be positive. Why is it different with girls?

Of course, the kids will see through a leader that doesn't believe in what he's selling in about two seconds flat.

And they're only working off rumours and supposition, why not wait and see what really happens? 

13 hours ago, Pselb said:

I'm not a eat, drink and sleep Scouting volunteer so does that warrant the red arrow judgements for my comments about it?  Just wondering because when I was lurking it didn't make any difference.  If my offering a parents perspective in is a problem, I can surely go back to lurking.  What seems to be the tradition on this?  Just curious.  I can stay off  if this is a problem.

Mate, they put up with me and a couple of others that aren't even in the same *country*, I say crack on.

17 hours ago, SSScout said:

So what has (in some peoples minds)   doomed Scouting? Anything to add to the list?   Did I get it all right?   Anything missing we have to contradict?  

UK Slant...

13. Getting rid of berets

14. Banning "pegging out"*

15. Getting rid of patrol tents**

16. The Adventurous Activities permit system***

* Hazing, basically, but not necessarily the new kid, just someone who had usually annoyed the Alpha Scout, or was generally the victim. Tied out to four pegs and various jams (jellies) sauces food slops applied. Acceptable in the 80s.

** Great big green canvas things that slept the whole patrol in. And they're still used by some.

*** That means, for example, you can't go climbing without being trained and checked that you know what you're doing. 

Of course, maybe it's already changed so much that it isn't "proper" scouting any more, and therefore scouting isn't just doomed, it's already gone.

I don't mean to be critical, but I tried to sing along to your version and I couldn't make it scan at all.

Ian

(also an REM fan)

Meanwhile in England...

Some Dutch don't like the Germans either. Or maybe they are fed up with Brits thinking they're German as Dutch sounds a bit German if you don't know either language that well. They bridle somewhat. You can normally tell they're Dutch as they'll have something orange on. Or if you're on a campsite in France, probably better to assume they're dutch. I'm convinced Holland must be empty in the summer as almost every campsite we go to is chockablock with Dutch.

I seem to meet nice friendly people wherever I go from whatever country. I think there's a parable about that, or maybe an apocryphal tale. Something about an old man on the road from one town to another.

4 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Thanks for the suggestions. I should note that he was talking about a $600 gift card.

[spits tea all over his keyboard and screen]

Six HUNDRED dollars!

Plaques and other engraved things are a good idea. Or you could buy something for the pack, and put a name plaque on it, and have a photo with the cubs and the thing framed for the cub master. To be facile, if they liked cooking, a new big metal ladle with "Bob's ladle" down the handle. One of our local huts has "Sue's Kitchen" but then she was the group scout leader and it was In Memoriam so slightly different.

There's some nice stuff in the world scouting shop.

1 hour ago, EmberMike said:

Absolutely. But the governing body of the organization will have to be completely re-thought. It can't be this big corporate operation anymore. I don't think 100% volunteer-run is sustainable, if you want good people to run the show they need to be able to devote themselves to it and that takes a lot of time. But we could do it with far fewer salaried employees and much more modest salaries for top executives. 

 

FYI, and out of interest...UK HQ directly employ about 300 people full time for about 450,000 young people. Though counties also employ a few people, we have at least one admin person, and staff to run campsites, in our County that's 13,500 young people and 3,500 volunteers, and about 3 employees, excluding campsite staff. UK wide volunteers, there's about 100,000 of us. Sometimes it's a bit creaky, and things don't happen as fast as an employee would get them done but...we muddle through.

1 hour ago, Back Pack said:

Should that matter when it comes to protection. It’s sad to hear adult leaders making a case for not protecting everyone. It’s a simple solution require a man to be present when male youth are present. We do this one Venturing all the time. 

Or just have no one-to-one between any leader and young person, no matter what the gender. I.e. there's always another young person or adult there. It doesn't really matter what flavour everyone is.

28 minutes ago, ItsBrian said:

In my opinion, BSA is greedy. By having them not have a dual membership will increase revenue by having more money spent on BSA. 

Maybe BSA aren't as bad as you think they are.

16 minutes ago, Back Pack said:

Hard to have fire in some states. More often than not we can’t have them. When we do they are low impact fires. Our unit enjoys fires too but has made a commitment to conservation. Fires are only when necessary. Maybe fires are another tradition that needs to go away. 

A fire always improves morale, and is therefore necessary.

Our Portuguese chums had some pretty bad forest fires this year, they grow an awful lot of the worlds cork oak there, so it's *very* important. Apparently their fires were in a hole on the beach not more than 12" diameter. If the flames were more than flickering out the top, the fire was too big. When they came to us, we were in 400 acres of British woodland (close to the original woods that were the inspiration for Winnie the Pooh's wood), to be cliched, it wasn't the driest summer we've ever had in the UK, and over the winter there had been forestry works, let's put it like this, the Portuguese were in hog heaven, a 5' square fire pit, and a practically limitless supply of wood. We had some warming fires that week. Necessary as the British summer was cold for them.

Ian

3 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

We do use fire for staring at. 

We do that too, and it seems to need an awful lot of very important and vital poking and prodding.

5 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

If you were me, the mom, or my husband, the ASM, what would you do?   Nothing?  Mention it to someone?  

As a mum? I'd worry about it, and feel a little sad for my son.

From the details given, it could anything on a scale from the other scouts just being in the middle of a game and not wanting to think of a 3 handed game, to them deliberately excluding your son because he's special/different/they don't like him, in the middle there's being a bit selfish, or a bit un-scoutlike. Truth is somewhere on that scale. If your son's not bothered by it, it's not really a problem. Maybe if there was an opportunity not long after I may have had a quiet little word with the two boys, but only if I'd observed it and was not a parent of the lone boy. More an open question to them "why didn't you want to let Bob join in your game chaps?" and see where it led.

My gut says it *seems* like no big deal, so no big deal should be made of it. Certainly the time to act was then, now is too late.

Painful for a parent to observe though. No-one wants to see their kid rejected by others.

On 1/21/2018 at 11:19 AM, scoutldr said:

"I was made redundant"....I love the British language!  Here in the Colonies, we get "fired" or "laid off".  Question, SKip:  when you say the time is "Half eleven"...what time is it?  Wife and I watch more British telly on PBS now than we do the American mindless sitcoms.  Our current faves are "The Durrells of Corfu", "Call the Midwife", "Midsomer Murders", and "Doc Martin".    

Half eleven? Time for a snack. You're running a bit late for morning elevenses, but we'll let it slide, and if it's half eleven in the evening, then it's decision time, go to bed, or get the beers and bad food in, possibly start dancing.

As for the telly choices, looks like "Sunday evening telly" to me, mostly gentle drama, no gore, no swears, no sex, nothing wrong with that of course,  there was one called Kingdom with Stephen Fry in the lead role that was similar to those sorts of things.

I'm sure I've got a book in me, scouting anecdotes and the like. Crikey, I could do a half hour stand-up routine on last year's summer camp, but

a) like I've got the time for that

b) as far as I can work out, my prose style can come across a little rushed, too many commas, not enough description. Short sentences. 

c) I'd probably upset someone, if not many.

All things being equal (i.e. we've booked and put a deposit down) we have one night's camping for my explorer scouts at Brownsea Island in the summer. Looking forward to being on "hallowed ground", walking in the footsteps etc, though I've been told not to get my expectations up too much by some, if memory serves you can't have open fires there anymore, but it should be an interesting start to the summer camp.

We also go to Gilwell Park most years, in the summer, they have a camp with about 4500 Explorer scouts attending, and a great big heap of activities, and not much sleep. The little museum is interesting, and you'll usually find volunteers from all over the world there, oh, and the shop for all your branded goodies. I think there's probably a "history trail". Obviously, you can camp there, but there's also hotel rooms available if you want a night there but don't want to carry tents and sleeping bags across the pond.

Though not really hallowed ground, if you're ever in that London, England, Baden-Powell House is in Kensington, near to the Natural History Museum, Science Museum, V&A museum, and the Royal Albert Hall. It's a hostel, but not run by scouting anymore, there is a little kiosk of goodies you can buy, and an excellent photo opportunity as there's a big granite statue of Baden Powell outside it. Possibly the only statue in London of man in shorts!

Well everyone's heard of Boy Scouts right? Am I right?

There you go then, the scout "brand" is just behind a popular fizzy soft drink and a fruit based tech company. Possibly.

It must be an amazing brand because everyone has heard of it. I really can't see how that fits in with Asian Licensing but hey, write your speech...something something leverage something something synergy etc etc for 10 minutes or so job done.

33 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.

Wise words you speak.

On 1/1/2018 at 6:06 PM, NJCubScouter said:

So you're saying that floating untethered in space is something that is unique to British Scouts and British fences? 

Yes, it's how we stop the sky cows from escaping. Handy tip: When camping in Britain, always check you aren't in a field under a herd of sky cows, they can make a right mess if they "pat" your tent.

On 12/28/2017 at 3:41 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

How do the boys on coed teams feel? How do the boys feel playing against girls?

I know my youngest hates the idea of girls joining Cub Scouts because he said it will ruin the program. When I asked why, he told me the story of the Boys Club and Girls Club the homeschool group had. Boys Club had a very active program, with lots of running around and Nerf gun fights. he didn't know what the girls did, but there was not a lot of attendance, and they started cancelling meetings. Someone came up with the idea of merging the two groups. Activities the boy wanted, life Nerf gun fights were stopped because of the girls. Eventually attendance at the coed club dropped because the boys no longer were having fun. The club folded within months of going coed.

Maybe boys joined the Boy Scouts because it was one of the few safe places to still be a boy? And now that is taken away from them. Something to consider.

Then your boy needs to talk to their leaders and say "if you do have a girls den, my programme must not change". Like the anecdote says, if you change the programme to accommodate some perceived difference, then it might not suit the majority. Girls will be joining because they want to do "Cub Scout" things, if those things go away, yes, expect membership to hemorrhage.

WisconsinMama's experience of mixed hockey chimes with my experience of my boy playing cricket, they had a couple of girls on the team, not enough to make a whole team, they all played to the same rules, and the bowlers didn't go easy on the batters if they were girls.

Do kids really go into all that "safe space to be a boy"? Do they not join because (a) a parent sends them, or (b) their friends do it, or (c) it looks like fun? Or a subtle combination of the three. If your boy joined to have a nerf war, and that's what Boy Scouts do, then girls joining should be girls that want to have a nerf war too, and the nerf wars should carry on. 

Or to take an example from my (mixed) explorers

Me: You want to play a physical game? What physical game do you want to play?

Ex: Mat Push!

Me: What?

Ex: You put a gym mat down on the floor and you try and push each other off it.

Me: Okay, remove jewellry, no punching scratching biting hair pulling or gouging...go!

No quarter given or asked for. It was asked for by boys and girls because that's what they wanted to do, so we did it, and everyone joined in. I think it's often the adults overthinking things that can be a problem.

17 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

Interesting. I wonder why it says "Sam Houston Area Council" on it.

No idea, I vaguely remember her saying something about "the Americans helping" when they started up, but nothing more specific than that.

I got given this badge at the Spanish National Jamboree. The leader didn't have the greatest of English (but way better than my Georgian!) so I think the story goes was that she was involved in setting up scouting locally, or maybe in Georgia (yes, we're not talking the state here). Looks like they got some help from BSA. She said, and I did understand this bit, that this was the very first custom made badge produced by/for Georgian Scouting after they formed in the 1990s. I was rather touched she gave this to me.