ianwilkins

My boys use a custom made necker.  36" square, blaze orange, boys wear a black surged satin stitched border, the next patrol can have another color, and the adults wear white border.  No other markings on the neckers.  They are visible from one end of the camp to the other.  The boys use corresponding para-cord woggles.

Assuming that "blaze" is USA speak for "dayglow", some wear those over here too, but go one step further and have a hi-vis reflective border sewn on to it. Yes, agreed, they certainly stand out! And useful when you are out and about in the dark.

If you went co-ed you should keep the necker so that girls can use them as headscarves and headbands to keep their mane of hair out of their eyes whilst doing stuff. 

Also from the UK, some are quite happy wearing the necker when out and about, some are not, last time I had to give out grief about it*, they left shortly after, despite seemingly enjoying what we did. Pure peer pressure. Ho hum, can't win 'em all.

* Day trip to the London 2012 Olympic Park. We had 20 UK Explorers, and 20 Portuguese Pioneiros, I told them they'd get a rocket up them if I caught them without a necker on. The small group that hung around the shopping mall next door all day got caught several times without necker, well, the English ones anyway, who insisted it really wasn't cool, but didn't mind at all walking around with some Portuguese that were fine with wearing it...go figure. Meanwhile us leaders wandered around the park and ended up playing badminton with some random children in one of the Olympic venues, so that was pretty cool. We kept our neckers on.

In the UK, no talk of dropping the necker, but some bemoan what they see as the death of the woggle (slide), with the friendship knot being a much more common sight these days. In fact, when HQ people are on telly doing media stuff they seem to always go with the friendship knot, which has lead some more cynical than I to create the label "woggleless wonders". Yes, they probably need to have a word with themselves.

Well, for some perspective, if you've got time on your hands, here's a thread from escouts, UK equivalent of scouter.com:

https://www.escouts.org.uk/forum/threads/1600-Is-the-Scout-Association-right-to-force-all-groups-to-accept-girls-from-2007

Sadly it doesn't go back much further but I thought it might be useful/interesting.

Ian

Your explorers need to cross the pond and camp with us. We randomize tent placement ... postage stamp footprints of crushed grass is poor form for our lot.

Next time....there's always a next time isn't there? We'd move the tents halfway through the week. Sadly that camp ground was so small we couldn't. It looked big enough on the recce, but that was before we knew how many were coming. My heart sank when we took down the tents at the end of the week to see a string of yellow rectangles. Ho hum, a month and it would have recovered. Another reason for encouraging hammock camping. We do try and leave no trace, and my litter sweeps are infamous.

 

Only way I've seen it done really well is a troop that has a big garage with hooks.  When they return from camp, they hang all the tents to dry.  It's a nice way to maintain inventory.  ... I'm jealous.  

 

Our hut (it's not unusual in the UK for each group to have their own hut, I'd guess probably 75% have their own) has hoops in the walls at about 5ft high, good for stringing rope across an hanging smaller tents from, it also has a decent high ceiling so we can hang bigger tents from ceiling beams. Of course, when the cubs are in the next day at 6pm, it still doesn't give you much time for things to dry.

Can I ask, as an interloper from across the pond...what is meant by "outfitter quality"?

Talking of matching tents, we had a stroke of good fortune a couple of years back. An ex-leader got back in touch with us, his company were having a global sales conference, and decided it was cheaper/better to put all of the visitors in tents, as the location had loads of green fields and it was summer. As the event was themed, they had some custom flysheets made for some standard two man tents, put one person in each, with a sleeping bag and headtorch. They had all the tents put up in rows on site by a professional organisation, then asked us, and a couple of other charities to come and help ourselves after the end of the conference. We didn't realise quite how many tents they had....

typical British summer, it was raining heavily when we came to take them down, but we managed to fit about 120 in our vehicles. Plus about 50 sleeping bags. Then all we had to do was dry them! I say we, I was on holiday at the time, in very sunny France, so I missed all the fun!

We divided them up amongst local scout groups.

They're definitely not for hiking, unless you're feeling very strong, but we had probably 15 or 20 of them up on our summer camp last year. The Explorers, as typical teenagers, wanted to put them up randomly, but my tent OCD didn't allow it, and, to be fair, the camping space we had was not the biggest, so they were lined up, not quite as well as the picture, but not bad. Looked great though, and should last us years and years.

Ian

I've seen them up at a few camps. Seems to be a few kids try it once or twice and give up, some will be determined to master it and you'll see them on there all weekend. Quite telling really. 

Yes, needs to be risk assessed, set up properly, and they need to understand how to use it safely.

Having your scout stave with you makes it easier!

Ian

Your statement suggests a single culture, or even a majority culture, in the US.  If that was the case, we wouldn't be having these kinds of debates internal to the BSA or across the country.

 

Don't worry, I get that too. I mean, I've seen Baywatch and The Dukes of Hazard so...[yes, I'm being flippant]

Ian

 

20 years of waiting to see the results might not bode well for scouting.  Those time lapses during membership decline I believe is what the UK and Canada experienced.  One does not see that kind of membership sway in the WGAAAS program for all female programming.

The number of boys involved in scouting in the UK has increased by 11% since 2007. Total youth membership up by 19%.

Though back in 1997 (I think) they allowed co-ed scouting, I think it's safe to say that to start with it was only groups that had the odd girl that really really really wanted to join that went co-ed. I can look at my local census back to 2002, so 5 years after all sections "went co-ed", optionally - there were 11 female young people, out of 497 total, and 5 of those were in Ventures (of 19 total), that had been co-ed since 1976. Only 3 sections out of 23 had gone co-ed. So much has changed since...well, pick any date between maybe 1966 and 2002 really, I don't think it's safe to draw any conclusions about cause and effect.

Anyway, I think you're right, why not allow both and see what happens? Then BSA can cater for the "everyone's equal" brigade, and the "it's BOY Scouts" brigade. There'll be bumps in the road but, as we say in the UK scout law "a scout has courage in all difficulties".

Let's see thousands of scouters having fun cobbling together co-ed programs within the bounds set for them.

Let's see the meteoric rise of independent scouting organizations whose policies are inclusive.

Well, there's 78,000 scouters in the UK doing exactly that.

When we switched to fully co-ed, there wasn't a meteoric rise in independent boys only scouting organisations. Though I'm not sure that's a valid comparison.

But, I'll freely admit, and I'm realising more and more, we're two countries with a moderately common language, but some sizeable differences in culture, so I'm definitely not going to tell you what's best, as if anyone could really know.

The most striking American experiment we have is venturing, the singular co-ed program that has had the most rapid membership decline of all of BSA's programs.

Even the Brit's are just now coming around to serve as many boys as they had before going co-ed. More discussion here:

http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/28648-how-has-the-addition-of-girls-affected-scouting-in-other-countries/

All evidence points to BSA's membership decline accelerating by going fully co-ed at least in the near term.

It doesn't matter who you let through the door, you're either appealing as a thing to do, or you're not. If you're appealing to more and more kids every year, they you're growing, otherwise you're shrinking. Yes, I'm saying the obvious. I believe the gender thing in the UK had a short term effect on numbers, but I believe the programme changes (and other things) have made it more appealing. No way to prove it either way of course, unless we can access alternate universes.

Going back to the original post, you have someone who is enthusiastic about boy scouting, who wants to do it, not being sent begrudgingly by their parents, and you're turning them away. Is that a good idea?

Even rats abandon a sinking ship.....

Even if you're down by 25 points, sometimes you can come back for an overtime win.

Scouting is down over 4000 scouts in my District alone.

Is that all because of "the gay issue"? Are you saying "scouts isn't thriving"? Or "scouts isn't thriving because of "the gay issue"?

And 4000 out of what? 4500? 8000? 40,000? 400,000?

LOL ... I agree.  We each have our hot button reasons BSA has had trouble.  I have several.  I'll nominate one right now.  

 

I nominate merit badge worksheets and merit badge lectures as the cause.  I've seen dozens of scouts that never want to do another merit badge sitting through two hours of pain.  If you are taking a sailing badge, most of the time should be sailing.  If you are doing physical fitness, you should be exercising.  Scouts love to "do" thinks.  Most don't like to sit and listen to powerpoint presentation for hours. 

I thought the whole premise* of Scouting was learning by doing?

* Okay, maybe not the whole premise.

1976 Girls first allowed in Venturing in the UK  Membership 627,569 per UK Scouting Assn.

1980 Membership hit all time peak of 641,268.

After declines in 1981-1985, membership census figures omitted from official chronology

1991 Girls allowed in all sections 

2004 290,000 members of all ages per claim as to growth by 2014

2007 Girl membership mandatory in all sections.  Membership 450,457 based on 2017 claim as to growth in ten years.

2009 Bear Grylls becomes Chief Scout (when not hospitalized from results of dangerous stunts) Membership 499,323 by year's                    end.

2010 Just under 500,000 members claimed

2016 Membership claimed as 550,457.

Sorry but I believe your 2004 number is not accurate. I have a spreadsheet of the annual census numbers from someone who got the numbers from the annual HQ report, I have no reason to believe they are inaccurate. I've got a low figure of 446,000 for all members (357,556 youth members) in 2005.

It appears the major decline was in the years between 1994 and 2002, roughly 5% per year, for the years I have figures for. So three years after they made co-ed optional, and 18 years after girls were first allowed in Ventures, the numbers started a pronounced decline. I guess you certainly could say that going co-ed didn't exactly boost numbers. Actually, you may have a point. I don't think it's a coincidence that numbers started improving three years after 2002 when they changed the age ranges (and uniform, and programme), so maybe there's a three year lag to these things. So yes, if national are looking to go co-ed to boost numbers, and think that the UK shows the way, I don't think just going co-ed is the way forward.

In 2004 we got a "celebrity" chief scout, okay, not a household name, but enough to get the media interested in positive scout stories again (they were/are always interested in negative scout stories). 2007 jamboree in the UK definitely helped. Better publicity helped. In my opinion, in the 80s and 90s those of us that did scouting in the UK enjoyed it, but by the wider public we were seen as an anachronism, a throwback to the 50s and 60s, odd even. You'd go out in uniform and it'd be "I didn't know scouts is still going!". Now we're not "weird", mind you, we're not "cool" either, thankfully. We're an acceptable option, parents seem happy, keen even, to put their trust in us leaders, and the young people enjoy it.

 

Time to start planning, I guess....

Indeed. The UK will be selecting our participants for 2019 towards the tail end of this year.

As for your question itself, I did not realize that this was part of the World Jamboree experience for Scouts from other countries.  I guess I just assumed that the Scouts arrived directly at their campsite at the Jamboree and left directly from there.  It sounds like a nice addition.  So I guess my first question would be, how have hosts and visitors been "matched up" for past World Jamborees?  Do the hosts have some role in choosing the the Scouts who will stay with them?  Or does someone in the host country's Scouting bureaucracy (in this case the BSA) do the matchups and the kids go where they are sent?  And who does the "recruiting" of families to be hosts and what kind of information are the potential hosts given?

I don't know if it's the usual thing for other contingents from other countries, but I know it's pretty standard for the UK contingent. One of mine that went said it was one of the highlights of her Jamboree last year. I mean, there you are, 14 or 15, and from a fairly normal bit of the UK, and you are dropped into a Japanese family's life for 4 or so days. Extraordinary. Anyhoo...

http://ukcontingent.co.uk/ho-ho/

One of the best parts of any international experience is a home stay, as it provides the opportunity to live with a family and experience their day to day life and see their country as no tourist normally can.   This is the reason why we build the UK Jamboree experience around this and from the beginning requested home hospitality for every one of our Units.   We also wanted to provide each Unit with a very different experience so requested hospitality in each of the 47 Prefectures from Hokkaido in the north to Okinawa in the South.   We have been delighted that The Scout Association of Japan has been able to accept this proposal and accommodate the UK Contingent all in every prefecture!

So basically it comes back to local scouting, I would guess that an area would say "yes we can do home hospitality", and then try and recruit scout families to host. I have a vague memory of putting out requests for hosts in 2007, I guess it depends, but it was really just "host families wanted", and they were expected to show them "normal life" and see the local sites. How much exact matching is done, well, it might vary considerably depending on the time available to those doing it! You'd like to think they would try and match roughly by age, gender might be a bit more of an issue, but I guess they might see if there are siblings or something. Logistically I'd imagine that each unit (around 36 young people plus adults) would end up in more or less the same place.

I'd imagine with it being a joint Can/USA/Mex then yes, I'm sure some units would go from the Jamboree site to do home hospitality in those countries.

I keep thinking that this is the road we are going down - becoming a co-ed organization.  And many of the leaders I talk with think the same way.  HOWEVER - if BSA becomes co-ed, what will become of the GS organization?  Don't you think they would fight this decision?  Just curious.

That depends. Are they very close in what they do? I know in the UK Girl Guiding, like Scouting, is a broad church. Some do the chocolate badge (no really, no, the badge isn't chocolate) every year, some would put many scout troops to shame with their outdoor programme. There was some wailing from some leaders, I guess the HQs had a few conversations. There are always the grumble from guide leaders about scouts "stealing their girls". Was it the end of GirlGuiding? No. It's actually bigger than scouting in the UK, but I don't have membership numbers to know if they are growing or shrinking. They generally appeal to different sorts of girls.

You have given us a few clues over the years, but just clues. Nothing definitive.  

 

If BSA is to become a values-neutral organization, that would be quite a change.  Yes, BSA provides a program and structure.  A pretty good structure, in my opinion.

 

BSA used to also provide scouts with a sense of shared values and common purpose.  A scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other scout. That is what we are losing.

 

Yes, my scouts can still benefit from scouting.  We can still use the scout program as a boilerplate upon which we can add our own values.  Recognizing that these are not shared values, we really won't have any common bond with scouts from any other unit, council, or country.  

 

A scout is a friend to all in our Chartered Organization, and a brother to every other scout in our unit.

 

Perhaps that is what scouting has come to.  Maybe that is what scouting must come to.  Every man for himself.  Very sad.

So you'd say you have no common bond with other scouts from across the world? If you and yours from BSA and me and mine from UK scouts shared a campout, and some of mine were female, say, or transgender, to stick to the topic in hand, would you not consider us your fellow scouts? 

I think BSA has made a terrible mistake.  I think it has turned left, just as the country has turned right.  I think it is BSA that is seeking to isolate itself by rejecting the values of half the country.

 

Sure, BSA can survive as a much smaller organization serving only the liberal Democrats living in the coastal states. But would that be a good thing?

As far as I can see, from across the pond, the USA turns left or right either once every 4 years or 8 years. Actually I guess in reality there's vast swathes of people that are either left or right at any given time, and it's only a much smaller percentage that vacillate between sides that decide the outcome (to be fair, that's undoubtedly the same in the UK) of elections.

I guess somehow, for scouting to thrive across all of the USA, it needs to be all things to all people. It needs to be liberal where the "market" are liberal, and conservative where the the locals are so. Yet without losing what makes scouting scouting. Which is tricky, as scouting means different things to different people.

When such large changes are made, there is always fallout, there will always be people who disagree. For some, a given change is a cue to reflect, and it's the straw that breaks the camel's back. In the UK, some walked away when we went co-ed. Some walked away when we changed the age ranges. No doubt some walked away when an alternative promise that didn't mention god was even offered (but there's still the main god one). Some walk away because "the kids are all impolite monsters these days" or "we're just a babysitting service" or any number of other reasons. But change is a catalyst for reflection.

It's a common complaint of those leaving "it's not the movement I joined".

Quite how you walk the tightrope of on one hand "this transgender thing is an abomination" and "this transgender thing is ok and normal"....pass. Whether you even should? Can any organisation/movement be that pluralist? Or do you get to the point that one part of the organisation thinks another part "aren't really scouts"?

Good luck with it though. I can't say I envy you.

Of course, if CambridgeSkip's scouts used normal proper correct chocolate, it would be a world away from any so called "chocolate" they have in the USA.

[ducks and covers]

I'm joking about my denigration of US chocolate of course, but they nub of truth remains, the UK chocolate and US chocolate I believe are somewhat different beasts. Sometimes people bring back Hershey's kisses or Reeses cups from their holidays and bring them into work, and they are pretty unpalatable to me. And I know at least one expat in the US who pines for Cadburys.

One of the things that "greens" growers often forget is that darkness is a good thing.  My lights are on timers so as to not waste electricity.  12 hours on 12 hours off, on a timer, works great and uses only half the energy consumption.

 

I'm beginning to explore the possibility of rabbit hutches down there as well, but with all the travel I do, that might not be feasible.

 

My daughter is pushing hydroponics for my next endeavor.  Feeding fish can be done automatically and with lights that I already have, I should be able to have fish for dinner as well.  Trout is the preferred fish of choice in our area, tilapia isn't as hardy.

I guess they figured as they weren't paying for the electricity, the consumption was irrelevant. Little realising that the police have heat seeking cameras on their helicopters, and do the occasional flyover to check the roof heat signatures. They light up like a beacon. Another advantage of basement setup I guess. Basements aren't generally a thing in the UK though.

Now, fish, and water, and greens, that reminds me. I'm sure I've seen something with lettuce being grown floating on expanded polystyrene (styrofoam) "floats" in ponds or tanks. Though as I guess the roots dangle in the water, you might need to do something to stop the fish eating the roots. Two birds with one stone, greens and fish at the same time!

 

This year's project is an indoor garden in the basement under grow lights so I can have fresh greens and root stock year around.

 

The people who lived in our house before us tried that in the loft, and were selling the "greens" to the slacker students from the local college. They bypassed the electricity meter, and our loft has about 20 double power points and a tap in it. They got about 3 years jail time when they got caught.

Isn't the most important thing that they were showing respect for the flag.

Yes. Unless you're looking for a stick to beat someone with.

They're only in girl scouts for a few years, and will probably only get one shot at marching at an inauguration. Why deny them that? One assumes as Girl Scouts are non-partisan that they aren't marching for the president's benefit, but for patriotic and civic reasons.

The screeching of the easily offended is grating. Berating people who've come to a decision based on different motives.